MIL vs MOA

Flashpoint

Flashpoint

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OK break out the popcorn boys, lol.

I think I'm pretty well versed in the technicalities but I could definitely be missing something so feel free to bust my bubble. I hope to once and for all either verify my understanding or learn something, so here we go. It's my understanding that both MIL and MOA are simply units of angular measure, and on a basic level one has no particular advantage over the other. So my question is this: for us Americans who think and measure stuff in inches and yards, what possible advantage does a MIL/MIL optic give me over a MOA/MOA optic?

I know MOA isn't exactly 1" at 100yds, but it is close enough for medium range work and a hell of a lot quicker (no 3.6x conversion from MILs necessary) to do in your head on the fly if you stick with the "close enough" 1"@100yds thing. Even for more precise work having to use a conversion factor for MsOA to inches is no worse than using one for MILs to inches.

So other than all the cool kids use MIL/MIL, someone please point out why we ever went to MILs in the first place and why we should stay.
 
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Moa is slightly more precise, mil is what the military uses. They both do the same thing. If you're using your reticle correctly you aren't converting anything. You hit 1.5 mil low? Dial or hold 1.5 mil over. I believe that most prs people use mil and it's nice to be speaking the same language as the people you shoot with.
 
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MIL is in a base of 10 no matter if it is metric or standard.

So 1 Mil in 100 Meters is 10cm
1 Mil in 100 Yards is 3.6 inches. (1 yard = 36inches/10)

US manufacturers have really just started in the last 10 years of keeping reticles and adjustments the same. I have many older MOA with Mil reticles and that is the hardest to use on the fly.

But overall, it is up to you... I would definitely advise that reticles and adjustment match. MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL.
 
VA_GENTLEMAN said:
MIL is in a base of 10 no matter if it is metric or standard.

So 1 Mil in 100 Meters is 10cm
1 Mil in 100 Yards is 3.6 inches. (1 yard = 36inches/10)

US manufacturers have really just started in the last 10 years of keeping reticles and adjustments the same. I have many older MOA with Mil reticles and that is the hardest to use on the fly.

But overall, it is up to you... I would definitely advise that reticles and adjustment match. MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL.
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Thanks for the correction, I was thinking MILs to MOA but writing MILs to inches so I should have used 3.6 not 3.4, I've corrected to OP.

But your post illustrates my point, I'm an American and I use yards, not meters. If it was common to have to convert between units of linear measure (kilometers to meters to cm vs miles to yards to inches) then yes I can see where the metric system has an advantage, but in ballistic work we don't typically do that right? We calculate between angular units of measure and distance. Now if I was European and wanted to think in terms of "that stop sign is 75cm high" when ranging instead of "that stop sign is 30 inches high" then MOA would not have an advantage, but the relationship of MOA to inches at an even 100yds is IMO too valuable of a thing to throw away, even if it is not 100% precise.
 
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BTW Bushnell has come out with an affordable line of MOA/MOA scopes, used to be that was rare as hen's teeth.
 
Mil scopes are faster to adjust when u got to come up or down alot to dial in your solution. Less turns/clicks than moa for same come up. Useful when on the clock or taking fire. Having said that I only use MOA scopes. Its what i learned and too old to change.
 
Flashpoint said:
Thanks for the correction, I was thinking MILs to MOA but writing MILs to inches so I should have used 3.6 not 3.4, I've corrected to OP.

But your post illustrates my point, I'm an American and I use yards, not meters. If it was common to have to convert between units of linear measure (kilometers to meters to cm vs miles to yards to inches) then yes I can see where the metric system has an advantage, but in ballistic work we don't typically do that right? We calculate between angular units of measure and distance. Now if I was European and wanted to think in terms of "that stop sign is 75cm high" when ranging instead of "that stop sign is 30 inches high" then MOA would not have an advantage, but the relationship of MOA to inches at an even 100yds is IMO too valuable of a thing to throw away, even if it is not 100% precise.
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Exactly.. it goes with what you are comfortable with. For ranging, I use a mil-dot master.. makes it a bunch easier.
 
From my old guy perspective, it's like getting used to the metric system when you've used standard all your life. I can see advantages with the mil system, but I fully understand how to use the moa. With that in mind, there is no way in the devils hockey sticks I'd buy a scope that was mil/moa. Trying to mix the two just doesn't work well. Better to go all one way or the other.
 
Help me out with this.

MOA is 4 clicks at 100 yards and MIL is 10 clicks at a 100 yards for an inch adjustment?
 
KnotRight said:
Help me out with this.

MOA is 4 clicks at 100 yards and MIL is 10 clicks at a 100 yards for an inch adjustment?
Click to expand...

Depends on the optic and 10 clicks in mil is not exactly an inch. Note that it's TEN clicks. Metric anyone?
 
Dave951 said:
Correct. Got thinking of base10 metric
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Yeah I learned it as inches but I never convert anything. Use the reticle to measure point of aim vs point of impact and dial as needed. Granted I'm still new to this and haven't done any prs stuff so I'm not sure what others do.
 
For me, rather than twirling turrets, I just learned to hold over or off. There is a reason that many optics on sniper weapons are fixed power. Learn your gun and how it shoots. I know guys who like to twist the turrets will be aghast in horror.
 
Dave951 said:
For me, rather than twirling turrets, I just learned to hold over or off. There is a reason that many optics on sniper weapons are fixed power. Learn your gun and how it shoots. I know guys who like to twist the turrets will be aghast in horror.
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For the distance I shoot my 22 if you hold over the target won't be in your scope..

Dialing elevation and and only having to hold wind makes things much simpler and more repeatable at distance.
 
Depends on distance you zero the scope for your 22.
 
Dave951 said:
Depends on distance you zero the scope for your 22.
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And then when you shoot close range you wouldn't be able to hold under and see what you're shooting at lol.

I'm zerod at 50 and at 350-400 I'm using all my internal adjustment and max holdover on my reticle with standard velocity ammo.
 
I can't shoot past 200 at my range so I just hold over. My zero is 50yds.
 
Gear Head said:
4 clicks in moa is 1 moa and just over an inch at 100 yds.
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But that not always true, right? When I was looking for a rimfire scope I've the last couple weeks, most said each click was 1/4 MOA...but I also saw at least one that was 1/8 MOA per click. That equates to 8 for an inch at 100 yards?
 
I say use what you like. Mils doesn’t have anything to do with the metric system though.

A milliradian is 1/1000 of a radian. A radian is the angle at which a radius of a circle equals the arc length between the two lines of the angle.

So at one mil the target size is equal to target distance divided by 1000.

One mill = .1 yards at 100 yards
Or 1 foot at 1000 feet
Or etc etc etc.
 
BigWaylon said:
But that not always true, right? When I was looking for a rimfire scope I've the last couple weeks, most said each click was 1/4 MOA...but I also saw at least one that was 1/8 MOA per click. That equates to 8 for an inch at 100 yards?
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You are correct but it seems that most moa scope are 1/4 mil.
 
I just selected a scope for the latest addition and went with MOA/MOA.

Having said that, I suspect the military really uses MIL primarily because the average military age male is 2 Mil tall at 1,000 yards.

The lucky ones are short or tall. Being average just sucks.
 
KnotRight said:
Help me out with this.

MOA is 4 clicks at 100 yards and MIL is 10 clicks at a 100 yards for an inch adjustment?
Click to expand...

Simply put a MOA @ 100 yards is 1.047", whereas a MIL is 3.6". The rest of the question is dependent on how many increments of adjustment you get for each 'click'. MOA optics commonly adjust 1/4 MOA per click, and MIL optics .1 MILs per click.

This gives ~0.2512" per click MOA and 0.36" per click MIL at 100 yards. At 1000 yards that would mean 9" difference in impact shift per click, giving the MOA adjustment slightly finer resolution.
 
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It's far more important to understand it for ranging than it is for shooting. If you know the approximate size of the target, the easiest way to call adjustment is in terms of the target's height or width.

I shoot distance a couple times annually with guys who use mixed spotting scopes and MIL or MOA reticles, and the common denominator is the target width and height. We have inexperienced spotters use those terms until we can get them acquainted with the particulars of their individual optics.
 
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