Moving NFA item to a trust

[NiceOldDouble]

I paid a tax as an individual for an SBR many month ago. I do have a NFA trust for the family as well, which I thought anything could be added to and removed from at anytime. Regardless of an item being registered as an individual, can it not be immediately moved to the trust to join the non-NFA items?

 

[DrScaryGuy]

It would be considered a transfer since the trust is a legal entity.
When you say you paid the tax for an SBR, did you form 1 or form 4 it? Is it approved yet?

 

[halorocks22]

I believe that you have to pay the $200 theft again to move your NFA item from individual to a trust if I’m not mistaken.

 

[JimP42]

Have to pay the tax again, AND the transfer will require every responsible person on the trust to submit a form, pic, and prints (maybe there is an exception if they’ve filed that paperwork recently enough). At least that’s how I understand the requirements.

Adding trustees doesn’t require ATF paperwork that I am aware of (unless an application is in progress) but adding items to the trust require paperwork from the trustees (responsible persons, more precisely).

 

[GymB]

You and the trust are separate persons, the transfer would be like any other to a third party.

 

[RacerX]

^^^^. Those responses are correct. $200/item using a Form 4 to transfer each item.

 

[NiceOldDouble]

It would be considered a transfer since the trust is a legal entity.
When you say you paid the tax for an SBR, did you form 1 or form 4 it? Is it approved yet?

Form 1, two months ago. It was approved.

 

[NiceOldDouble]

My wife is on the trust, but will have to look at how her role is worded. I should have done the SBR’s as a trust. This is not my area of expertise, but am learning. My primary objective now is for these things to be retained by my family at my demise. My FFL has an SOT attached to it as of yesterday, so whenever I can afford suppressors I hope to add some to the trust as well.

 

[GymB]

My wife is on the trust, but will have to look at how her role is worded. I should have done the SBR’s as a trust. This is not my area of expertise, but am learning. My primary objective now is for these things to be retained by my family at my demise. My FFL has an SOT attached to it as of yesterday, so whenever I can afford suppressors I hope to add some to the trust as well.

I can’t speak to the SOT, but upon your passing your estate can transfer any NFA items to your beneficiaries and I’m pretty sure that they pay no tax for that transfer.

Trusts used to be very beneficial, but now they serve only two purposes that I’m aware of. Most importantly, they allow several folks, each listed as a co-trustee or such, to have possession of an NFA item, so for example your wife could go shooting with a suppressor and without you. These folks are all Responsible Parties in ATF language, so you’d submit fingerprints and pics of each if they are in the trust when you add an NFA item.

 

[NiceOldDouble]

I can’t speak to the SOT, but upon your passing your estate can transfer any NFA items to your beneficiaries and I’m pretty sure that they pay no tax for that transfer.

Trusts used to be very beneficial, but now they serve only two purposes that I’m aware of. Most importantly, they allow several folks, each listed as a co-trustee or such, to have possession of an NFA item, so for example your wife could go shooting with a suppressor and without you. These folks are all Responsible Parties in ATF language, so you’d submit fingerprints and pics of each if they are in the trust when you add an NFA item.

Thank you. The original objective with the trust was to keep guns out of the probate process.

 

[GymB]

Thank you. I original objective with the trust was to keep guns out of the probate process.

That's a good purpose.

 

[BigWaylon]

Thank you. I original objective with the trust was to keep guns out of the probate process.

Specify the existing trust as the beneficiary in your will for the individual-owned items. Tax free transfer (using a Form 5), and everything would then be together after you’re gone.

 

[GymB]

Specify the existing trust as the beneficiary in your will for the individual-owned items. Tax free transfer (using a Form 5), and everything would then be together after you’re gone.

That works, except that it goes through probate and all that entails.
Might be better to transfer it to the trust and not tell the ATF. Sure it’s illegal, but he’ll be gone and he’s exclusively on both sides of the illegal transfer, so who they gonna “get”? Fill out the form 5 transfer to the trust and leave it for her to file after you pass just to clean up their paperwork.

Hypothetically of course, nobody should break the law.

 

[BigWaylon]

Might be better to transfer it to the trust and not tell the ATF. Sure it’s illegal, but he’ll be gone and he’s exclusively on both sides of the illegal transfer, so who they gonna “get”? Fill out the form 5 transfer to the trust and leave it for her to file after you pass just to clean up their paperwork.

But you can’t actually transfer it to the trust. Sure, you can list it on a Schedule A, or fill out an Assignment of Property form, etc…but the trust won’t be listed on the F4 and thus isn’t the registered owner.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

Well... there's always the option to have your permission slip canceled because you haven't actually made it into an SBR yet, then go through the process with the trust as the owner.
i mean, you haven't actually done the conversion yet, so you're still good...

 

[JohnFreeman]

But you can’t actually transfer it to the trust. Sure, you can list it on a Schedule A, or fill out an Assignment of Property form, etc…but the trust won’t be listed on the F4 and thus isn’t the registered owner.

Yes, that makes sense, and in doing so, one might wad up the whole legal process even more than it actually will be if you just left the item as a normal asset of your estate-to-be. BW is right, regardless of what the assignment sheet might say, since the item is already on the registry with your name on the Form 4, it's still owned by you.

That said, $200 isn't a lot of money if you wanted to tidy it all up and get it transferred to the trust from you on a Form 4.

 

[GymB]

But you can’t actually transfer it to the trust. Sure, you can list it on a Schedule A, or fill out an Assignment of Property form, etc…but the trust won’t be listed on the F4 and thus isn’t the registered owner.

Yes, that makes sense, and in doing so, one might wad up the whole legal process even more than it actually will be if you just left the item as a normal asset of your estate-to-be. BW is right, regardless of what the assignment sheet might say, since the item is already on the registry with your name on the Form 4, it's still owned by you.

That said, $200 isn't a lot of money if you wanted to tidy it all up and get it transferred to the trust from you on a Form 4.

I believe that the transfer would be legally binding, regardless of what the registry says. ATF won’t like it. Same if I walk up and give or sell you an NFA item, I can’t come get it back later because it wasn’t properly transfered on the registry. Some laws were broken, and there will be consequences, but I can’t think of any that would affect a dead man.

Potentially messy for sure, that’s why you have A form 5 ready to go, wraps it all up for ATF.

edit: not suggesting anyone do this, so much as pointing out how arbitrary their rules are.

 

[NiceOldDouble]

Thanks, All. I think that when I have the money to spare, I will go the Form 4 route and transfer things from me to the trust. But starting now, if anything new is acquired, it will be by the trust, not by me, myself, and I.

Additional question: can my wife have access to NFA items, and shoot them? She doesn’t shoot much at all, but can she if she wanted to?

 

[BigWaylon]

Additional question: can my wife have access to NFA items, and shoot them? She doesn’t shoot much at all, but can she if she wanted to?

With you present? Yes.
Without you present? Yes, if they’re registered to an entity and she’s considered a Responsible Person of that entity. Otherwise, No.

 

[NiceOldDouble]

With you present? Yes.
Without you present? Yes, if they’re registered to an entity and she’s considered a Responsible Person of that entity. Otherwise, No.

I am the Selltor and Trustee. She is a Co-Trustee.

 

[BigWaylon]

I am the Selltor and Trustee. She is a Co-Trustee.

Then Yes.

 

[NiceOldDouble]

Then Yes.

Thank you. I don’t recall providing prints or photos at the time it was set up. ATF has that stuff from our CCW’s and and my FFL. At what point is that required of her? As part of the Form 4 transfer from myself to the trust, because she’s a co-trustee of said?

 

[BigWaylon]

Thank you. I don’t recall providing prints or photos at the time it was set up. ATF has that stuff from our CCW’s and and my FFL. At what point is that required of her? As part of the Form 4 transfer from myself to the trust, because she’s a co-trustee of said?

There’s no proactive notification at any time you change anything.

You provide prints and photos (and fill out an RPQ) for anybody that’s an RP at the time of submission. It’s that simple.

If you removed her, submitted, then added her back…you’d never submit prints and photos for her.

 

[NiceOldDouble]

There’s no proactive notification at any time you change anything.

You provide prints and photos (and fill out an RPQ) for anybody that’s an RP at the time of submission. It’s that simple.

If you removed her, submitted, then added her back…you’d never submit prints and photos for her.

Very sorry. I’m not following. At the time I submit the form 4? She’s always be associated in the trust in her Co-Trustee role.

 

[BigWaylon]

Very sorry. I’m not following. At the time I submit the form 4? She’s always be associated in the trust in her Co-Trustee role.

Correct. When you submit a Form 1 or Form 4.

You could have an Amendment to remove her, submit the form, then have another Amendment to add her back…if you didn’t want her to have to ever submit prints a photos.

Or do none of that and just submit her info and RPQ with every future submission.

 

[JimP42]

As I understand it, it isn’t just when you submit, it is during the entire submission process (submit to stamp received). If you add her in while a submission is outstanding, she becomes an RP and you have to amend the application. If you have submissions in progress most of the time, it sort of defeats the purpose for her not to be on the trust most of the time.

 

[BigWaylon]

As I understand it, it isn’t just when you submit, it is during the entire submission process (submit to stamp received). If you add her in while a submission is outstanding, she becomes an RP and you have to amend the application. If you have submissions in progress most of the time, it sort of defeats the purpose for her not to be on the trust most of the time.

There’s nothing in the regulations that support what you said.

There was a Q&A in the FAQ when the changes were announced said you didn’t notify anybody if a change was made after approval, but you needed to call the NFA Division and ask what to do if you added between submission and approval. I know that answer didn’t get changed in the short term after it was published. Don’t know if it ever got changed. Either way, there’s still nothing to support the theory that you have to notify.

On the other hand, the 4473 does actually cover dealing with an RP that didn’t have a background check done during the NFA process. No background check = no prints/photos submitted. It simply says they have to have a NICS check done (or hold a valid permit that qualifies for a Brady exemption) if they’re the one that does the pickup.

You sign the F1/F4 saying you’re certifying everything on it is correct. At the moment you sign it, it is correct. If you change the RPs after that moment, it’s a non-issue.

ATF has no way (and no need) of knowing the trust status at any point in time other than when it’s submitted.

 

[JohnFreeman]

Is there any obligation in NC to retain documents of amendment to a trust if they have been superceded or revoked by a later amendment?

Also:

"On the other hand, the 4473 does actually cover dealing with an RP that didn’t have a background check done during the NFA process. No background check = no prints/photos submitted. It simply says they have to have a NICS check done (or hold a valid permit that qualifies for a Brady exemption) if they’re the one that does the pickup."

Could you explain this please? Which NFA process?

 

[BigWaylon]

Is there any obligation in NC to retain documents of amendment to a trust if they have been superceded or revoked by a later amendment?

Also:

"On the other hand, the 4473 does actually cover dealing with an RP that didn’t have a background check done during the NFA process. No background check = no prints/photos submitted. It simply says they have to have a NICS check done (or hold a valid permit that qualifies for a Brady exemption) if they’re the one that does the pickup."

Could you explain this please? Which NFA process?

I don’t know if there’s an NC law that addresses that. I do know I’d want to keep them for a paper trail. For example…there’s some famous internet gun lawyer that recommended creating an Amendment to remove all trustees other than the person submitting. Then, instead of creating another Amendment to add them back, just tear up the original Amendment.

The problem is you’ve broken the paper trail. You’re left with the original trust showing multiple trustees, yet you have a signed Form 1/4 that you certified was accurate, but only has your name listed under RPs.


As you know, when you fill out the 4473 for the F4 transfer, you’d normally have a check in box #28.



The instructions say that if the person handling the transfer isn’t listed on the F4, then a NICS check is required. I’d assume you could then qualify for #29 if applicable.

 

[JimP42]

There’s nothing in the regulations that support what you said.

There was a Q&A in the FAQ when the changes were announced said you didn’t notify anybody if a change was made after approval, but you needed to call the NFA Division and ask what to do if you added between submission and approval. I know that answer didn’t get changed in the short term after it was published. Don’t know if it ever got changed. Either way, there’s still nothing to support the theory that you have to notify.

On the other hand, the 4473 does actually cover dealing with an RP that didn’t have a background check done during the NFA process. No background check = no prints/photos submitted. It simply says they have to have a NICS check done (or hold a valid permit that qualifies for a Brady exemption) if they’re the one that does the pickup.

You sign the F1/F4 saying you’re certifying everything on it is correct. At the moment you sign it, it is correct. If you change the RPs after that moment, it’s a non-issue.

ATF has no way (and no need) of knowing the trust status at any point in time other than when it’s submitted.

Interesting! I have never heard that before. I like it, but I don't have a good feeling about taking someone off of a trust for 5 min to do the submission, and the feds allowing that to go unchallenged if they did find out (like a not-an-RP-at-submission) went to court for some reason while a submission was in process, and the trust name was flagged to the ATF by local LE.

Granted, the NFA laws and policies mostly don't make sense, but a loophole that big to doing the RP forms for everyone on the trust, still open after many years? Hard to believe.

I get what you are saying - "true when you click the button" - sure. But _intent_ to work around the law by temporarily removing trustee(s) while submitting? Not sure how that would go in a trial.

Which is why I have no other trustees. I suppose the "trust per firearm/can" method would make the entire question moot.

Have you ever heard of someone calling the NFA division and asking what to do, if that's what their Q&A directed?

Thanks for the info for sure - I will just say that I believe you are factually and legally correct, but that I don't trust the ATF to care about correctness