Need help from mechanics or tractor guys

dubnali

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As some have seen, I recently acquired a M-F 135 with 4 cyl gas engine. When I got it, the starter would engage just enough to start as long as it started quickly. Otherwise, it would disengage very quickly. After reading, I assumed it was the starter drive getting weak so I just replaced it and the brushes as well. Now it won't engage the flywheel at all. Here's the kicker: on the tester at my local part store, the drive kicks in fully and tests good. I've swapped batteries, solenoids, even used a booster pack on the battery with no luck. The # on the Delco starter is 1107694. I have already ordered a reman starter ($50), but am worried it may not fix the issue. Any ideas?
 
When you have the starter off, take a good look at the teeth on the flywheel. Sometimes when they are worn they will kick the starter gear out. Lots of times the engine stops in the about the same place, they can be badly worn in one area and hardly worn in other spots.
 
When you have the starter off, take a good look at the teeth on the flywheel. Sometimes when they are worn they will kick the starter gear out. Lots of times the engine stops in the about the same place, they can be badly worn in one area and hardly worn in other spots.

I agree with John. 4 broken or worn out teeth on the ring gear would disable any electrically started gas engine.
 
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Probably what John said.
If it's turning the solenoid has to be working, and power and ground shouldn't be an issue or it'd kick back out.
So only other option would be bad Bendix.
 
If you can test it on the ground with jumper cables, use a wood broom handle and put some weight on the gear.
If it's not even coming out, it needs lube.
 
When you have the starter off, take a good look at the teeth on the flywheel. Sometimes when they are worn they will kick the starter gear out. Lots of times the engine stops in the about the same place, they can be badly worn in one area and hardly worn in other spots.
The flywheel looks fine. It engaged momentarily before, but not at all now. The only thing that changed was a new solenoid, bendix (or "drive"), and brushes as well as a good cleaning.
Probably what John said.
If it's turning the solenoid has to be working, and power and ground shouldn't be an issue or it'd kick back out.
So only other option would be bad Bendix.
It engaged momentarily before, but not at all now with new parts.
Not sure, might be way wrong, but does it look like that starter needs to be shimmed to line up correctly?
Could be binding.
Wild guess.
I don't think alignment is an issue. The bendix, or starter drive, doesn't seem to be engaging fully except on the machine at Advance.
maybe a bad ground if it does not "kick" well
May try moving the ground to one of the starter mounting bolts. The tractor was painted recently (prior to my ownership) and I suspect they have painted over it. Testing with the jump box on the bench doesn't fully extend the bendix, so I'm not sure if the ground is the issue.
If you can test it on the ground with jumper cables, use a wood broom handle and put some weight on the gear.
If it's not even coming out, it needs lube.
It comes out, just not all the way except on the machine at Advance. Then it performs flawlessly.
 
Sounds like a loss of amps somewhere. Check the engine / battery connections make sure it's clean contact. Don't forget the ground at the engine block.
Has the battery been load tested?
 
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Sounds like a loss of amps somewhere. Check the engine / battery connections make sure it's clean contact. Don't forget the ground at the engine block.
Has the battery been load tested?
Both batteries were load tested. I may try to move the ground from the engine block to one of the starter mounting bolts. It looks to have been painted over when the tractor was painted by a previous owner.
 
Since the flywheels ok, I agree with Mirac, voltage loss somewhere, either batteries, cables, or connections. You may have to check the resistance of the cables to pin it down.
 
Run a jumper cable from the neg of the battery to a bare bolt on the starter and retry.
 
Ok, update. I reinstalled the original starter. Since it tested good at Advance, I feel safe that the problem is in the wiring. I got the meter out and got a few readings:

Bat + to starter: 12.9v
Bat + on switch: 12.9v
Switch start to solenoid: 9.9v

I even made a jumper to run from the switch to the solenoid to bypass the factory harness. Same results. I am leaning toward a bad switch. I still need to move the ground, but I feel the starter is well-grounded through the chassis.
 
Can you jump at the solenoid and get it to crank over /start with the switch on run position ? By touching the 2 smaller terminals.

That would bypass using the switch to start .
 
Can you jump at the solenoid and get it to crank over /start with the switch on run position ? By touching the 2 smaller terminals.

That would bypass using the switch to start .
Nope. Same result.
 
Really ?
That's weird. Starter should spin up the engine direct from the battery.
Now that sounds like a bad solenoid...
 
It'll spin the motor, but won't kick the bendix in.

So your issue is that the Bendix doesn't fully engage and hence doesn't crank the flywheel. It tests good in a test stand but doesn't perform as it should on the engine. Is all that correct?

Do you have an amp clamp? or any way to measure for amperage spikes?
 
Put a volt meter across the starter terminal, and ground. See what the reading is when you crank the starter.

I see where you are going with this.
If the battery was load tested properly, it would have found the dead cell.

Being the bendex is not extending, I'm back to no or not enough voltage is getting to it.

Easy enough to take a lead off the battery and touch it to the solenoid direct. ( bypass the switch ) If it goes, bad switch. If it don't, bad bendex.
 
When you test on a test stand, the power cables are much shorter to the starter, giving you good amperage to the solenoid. Check your cables to the starter from the batteries. Look for a loose or corroded crimp lug on the wiring. You will still show proper voltage, but may be losing amps under cranking load.If the solenoid don't get a good ' SNAP', the bendix will not fully extend before it starts spinning.Also if the starter shaft helix is not greased under the bendix, it will bind.
Also, check the end cap bushings in the starter. If they are worn or egg shaped, the shaft will pull one sided when starting and cause the solenoid yoke to pull the bendix crooked, and the armature may drag on the field coils.
Good luck and keep looking.
 
So your issue is that the Bendix doesn't fully engage and hence doesn't crank the flywheel. It tests good in a test stand but doesn't perform as it should on the engine. Is all that correct?

Do you have an amp clamp? or any way to measure for amperage spikes?

That is correct. It extends partially on the bench, but not fully. I don't have an amp clamp.

Put a volt meter across the starter terminal, and ground. See what the reading is when you crank the starter.

Did that, forgot to include it. Was right around 11v when cranking.

I see where you are going with this.
If the battery was load tested properly, it would have found the dead cell.

Being the bendex is not extending, I'm back to no or not enough voltage is getting to it.

Easy enough to take a lead off the battery and touch it to the solenoid direct. ( bypass the switch ) If it goes, bad switch. If it don't, bad bendex.

Is that the same as using a jumper from the battery terminal on the solenoid to the start terminal?

When you test on a test stand, the power cables are much shorter to the starter, giving you good amperage to the solenoid. Check your cables to the starter from the batteries. Look for a loose or corroded crimp lug on the wiring. You will still show proper voltage, but may be losing amps under cranking load.If the solenoid don't get a good ' SNAP', the bendix will not fully extend before it starts spinning.Also if the starter shaft helix is not greased under the bendix, it will bind.
Also, check the end cap bushings in the starter. If they are worn or egg shaped, the shaft will pull one sided when starting and cause the solenoid yoke to pull the bendix crooked, and the armature may drag on the field coils.
Good luck and keep looking.

The bendix can be operated manually with the solenoid removed. It is smooth and doesn't seem to drag. I am planning for new cables, just haven't gotten the necessary measurements yet.
 
That is correct. It extends partially on the bench, but not fully. I don't have an amp clamp.

.

I think you've got a wiring issue like you mentioned. I would look for a bad connection that is limiting the flow of current to the starter...it could be a loose fitting, corroded connection, broken wire...and it will be on the load wires, not the signals to engage the solenoid.. An amp clamp or meter that shows amp spikes will show this and make it easier to find but it shouldn't be terribly hard on your vehicle.
Basically the damaged connection acts as a bottle neck and causes a spike in amperage as the battery tried to push through it and complete the task. It could in fact be the starter itself because on the test bench it doesn't see a load. It needs to be tested under load in order to spike the amps. I would look for other things since you've gone through the starter and it's likely good.

Have you noticed any of the wires getting hot?
 
I think you've got a wiring issue like you mentioned. I would look for a bad connection that is limiting the flow of current to the starter...it could be a loose fitting, corroded connection, broken wire...and it will be on the load wires, not the signals to engage the solenoid.. An amp clamp or meter that shows amp spikes will show this and make it easier to find but it shouldn't be terribly hard on your vehicle.
Basically the damaged connection acts as a bottle neck and causes a spike in amperage as the battery tried to push through it and complete the task. It could in fact be the starter itself because on the test bench it doesn't see a load. It needs to be tested under load in order to spike the amps. I would look for other things since you've gone through the starter and it's likely good.

Have you noticed any of the wires getting hot?
I haven't noticed any wires getting hot, but haven't really paid attention.
 
I haven't noticed any wires getting hot, but haven't really paid attention.

The restriction will cause a build up of heat so the source of the heat is often the problem. The system your testing is one that only operates temporarily so it may be a little harder to find by heat.
The heat will also burn a connection and can show itself that way.
 
Just out of curiosity, I started digging again at starter part #s. The starter I have is Delco 1107694. That's what's stamped into the housing. I can't find that part # anywhere in relation to these tractors. Perhaps Farmer John just pulled the starter off an old car he had sitting around and used it because it mounted up. I feel like such an idiot. If I am correct, it should be part # 1108324, right? Could really have been the starter all along. I guess I'll know in a few days when I get the correct one.
 
If indeed it is the wrong starter, that would explain a lot. The bendix may be going out to full travel, but the snout may be too short to allow it to
engage the flywheel. When you get the new starter, place them nose to flange and see if there is any lgth difference. You may be on the right track.
 
Haven't updated, but I got tired of pulling my hair out with this tractor, so I scrapped it. Just kidding! I took the starter to a local starter/alternator shop and let him work his magic. Turns out it was the starter all along. I just tend to overthink things. We took the fairly new Wilson off dad's Ford 3400 TLB and apparently it needed work too. Now we're back to having two functioning tractors. Talk about happy!
 
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