No start diagnosis?

drypowder

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August 2017 update (use link to jump to post later in this thread with update)

original OP below:
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Honda, 5yr old battery (Autocraft Gold from Advance Auto). Got in the car today to get some groceries to make some sausage dip for the games and car made weak attempt to start but failed. Tried again and nothing at all. Tried a few more times and zilch, so I figured dead battery since it's 5yrs old and we're in winter. It's a manual tranny, so I tried to push the car toward a slight slope to push start, but where I was with wet pavement made it impossible to get it up enough of a slope to generate enough rolling speed to push start, though I did clutch out a couple of times (which may have changed things internally?).

At this point, I figured I'll just push back into parking spot and walk to grocery store (cuz I gotta have some sausage dip). Got car back in parking spot and thought what the hell, lemme try again and voila, it starts right up with zero hesitation. I left it running when I was getting groceries, and I've got it parked near a good slope, so it will be easy to push start if necessary.

WTF happened? Battery must be OK given that it started right up, right? Starter? From looking through maintenance records from prior car owner, the starter has never been replaced, so it will be 16yrs old (and 150k miles).

Story has a happy ending b/c I got some sausage dip tips from bigfelipe at it came out great.
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Any corrosion on the battery cables? Are they secured good and tight?

I had an old Focus that would corrode cables like a mofo to the point it wouldn't start, then give the negative the slightest bump and it would fire right up.
 
More than likely weak battery! Also for roll starting try using a higher gear it will cause the motor to spin faster and be easier to roll, just becareful not to stall it once it starts.
 
FlatFender;n68017 said:
Any corrosion on the battery cables? Are they secured good and tight?
I'll have to check. A year or two ago, I cleaned the terminals and top of battery off, applied some grease to inhibit corrosion off, and reinstalled. So the connection should be tight, but it may be that corrosion is back, will check tomorrow.
 
Could be a starter. Could be battery. Could be loose/corroded cable.
Test battery for at least 12 volts. If so, then make sure small wire at starter is getting power while key is turned to start position.
 
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Jp8819;n68020 said:
More than likely weak battery! Also for roll starting try using a higher gear it will cause the motor to spin faster and be easier to roll, just becareful not to stall it once it starts.
Interesting. I usually roll start in 2nd gear. But I see what you mean - a higher gear will let me pick up more speed on a slight slope.
 
Jp8819;n68020 said:
More than likely weak battery! Also for roll starting try using a higher gear it will cause the motor to spin faster and be easier to roll, just becareful not to stall it once it starts.

.....wouldn't a higher gear cause the engine to spin slower? Isn't that why when you go too slow in a high gear the engine starts chugging and eventually stalls because it can't turn fast enough?
 
FlatFender;n68061 said:
.....wouldn't a higher gear cause the engine to spin slower? Isn't that why when you go too slow in a high gear the engine starts chugging and eventually stalls because it can't turn fast enough?

Yes it does but the reduced torque multiplication helps prevent the tires from losing traction.
 
FlatFender;n68061 said:
.....wouldn't a higher gear cause the engine to spin slower? Isn't that why when you go too slow in a high gear the engine starts chugging and eventually stalls because it can't turn fast enough?

No engine starts chugging and stalls cause it doesnt have the hp or torque to pull the higher gear. In a higher gear you are using the transmission to your mechanical advantage to over come engine compression and keep your rolling speed up. Really I kind of misspoke in my earlier post and engine is not turning faster just easier and you can keep rolling faster and longer helping it start.
 
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drypowder;n68087 said:
What does traction have to do with roll starting?


On something like a diesel with alot of compression it will slide the tires before a engine turns over when roll starting if you do not use a higher gear.
 
FlatFender;n68061 said:
.....wouldn't a higher gear cause the engine to spin slower? Isn't that why when you go too slow in a high gear the engine starts chugging and eventually stalls because it can't turn fast enough?
Think about it from the perspective of driving down a hill with foot off the accelerator - a taller gear will let you pick up more speed than a shorter gear because there's less compression resistance from the engine. And the problem I had with push starting today was not enough slope to pick up sufficient speed to turn the engine over.

Jp8819;n68088 said:
No engine starts chugging and stalls cause it doesnt have the hp or torque to pull the higher gear. In a higher you are using the transmission to your mechanical advantage to over come engine compression and keep your rolling speed up. Really I kind of misspoke in my earlier post and engine is not turning faster just easier and you can keep rolling faster and longer helping it start.
So I usually use 2nd gear for this 4cyl engine. So 3rd should allow me to roll start on a slope just slightly too shallow for 2nd gear to work (assuming I'm fast enough to clutch in before it stalls)?
 
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Mike Overlay;n68035 said:
Could be a starter. Could be battery. Could be loose/corroded cable.
Test battery for at least 12 volts. If so, then make sure small wire at starter is getting power while key is turned to start position.
Thanks, will check tomorrow.
 
drypowder;n68106 said:
So I usually use 2nd gear for this 4cyl engine. So 3rd should allow me to roll start on a slope just slightly too shallow for 2nd gear to work (assuming I'm fast enough to clutch in before it stalls)?



Theoretically yes for 3rd 4th or 5th if all goes according to plan.
 
drypowder;n68087 said:
What does traction have to do with roll starting?

Based upon a number of factors (compression ratio, clearances inside the engine, valve spring tension, oil viscosity, etc), an engine requires a certain amount of force to turn it over, and usually it has to be spun at around 200 rpm to start. A four cylinder, 2 litre engine typically requires around 240 nm of force to overcome these factors and spin over.

Said differently, there is 240nm of resistance in the engine. A typical ratio for first gear is 2.53, so when multiplied out you now have 240nm of engine resistance x 2.53 of first gear multiplication - or 607nm of resistance to overcome in order to spin the motor over in first gear. If you pop the clutch, this is typically more force than the resistance between the tires and the pavement, and the tires will skid in lieu of turning the engine over.

Higher gear's (2nd or 3rd) have a higher gear ratio which multiplies the resistance less, so the tires are less likely to lose grip.
 
Battery... any of the auto places will test it and replace it for you. I recommend going back to Advance as they may prorate a replacement.
 
Scsmith42;n68131 said:
Based upon a number of factors (compression ratio, clearances inside the engine, valve spring tension, oil viscosity, etc), an engine requires a certain amount of force to turn it over, and usually it has to be spun at around 200 rpm to start. A four cylinder, 2 litre engine typically requires around 240 nm of force to overcome these factors and spin over.

Said differently, there is 240nm of resistance in the engine. A typical ratio for first gear is 2.53, so when multiplied out you now have 240nm of engine resistance x 2.53 of first gear multiplication - or 607nm of resistance to overcome in order to spin the motor over in first gear. If you pop the clutch, this is typically more force than the resistance between the tires and the pavement, and the tires will skid in lieu of turning the engine over.

Higher gear's (2nd or 3rd) have a higher gear ratio which multiplies the resistance less, so the tires are less likely to lose grip.

Thanks for that great explanation!
 
I say loose battery connections or corrosion.
DS
 
You're lucky to have gotten 5 years out of a battery anymore. With all the electronics drawing power even with the switch off I'm hearing that the average battery life span is 3 years. Check the terminals for corrosion but be ready to replace the battery.
 
You say it made a weak attempt to start but failed. Does that mean the starter engaged and the engine turned without catching? If so it's probably not the starter.

While reading I thought the picture was the battery terminal and thought Well that's the problem!
 
Dry, I've been reading the responses in your thread here and no one has mentioned checking these items. Try checking the battery terminals for excessive corrosion while also checking for a loose or shorted out cable. Also, it could be a bad starter or a bad battery.:D:D
 
Qball;n68312 said:
Dry, I've been reading the responses in your thread here and no one has mentioned checking these items. Try checking the battery terminals for excessive corrosion while also checking for a loose or shorted out cable. Also, it could be a bad starter or a bad battery.:D:D

from the looks of that dip, I'd be worried about blown gaskets and o-rings as well.
 
Don;n68302 said:
You're lucky to have gotten 5 years out of a battery anymore. With all the electronics drawing power even with the switch off I'm hearing that the average battery life span is 3 years. Check the terminals for corrosion but be ready to replace the battery.
Could be, Don. My trips tend to be pretty short, so I definitely have a very high number of starts relative to miles driven, so it wouldn't surprise me if I get on the short end of the range of battery life.

J R Green;n68309 said:
You say it made a weak attempt to start but failed. Does that mean the starter engaged and the engine turned without catching? If so it's probably not the starter.
Yeah, it sounded like the starter engaged the first time, but not the usual sound of the engine trying repeatedly to turn over. It was very weak and over very quickly. Anyway, I'll know more after I take a look under the hood tomorrow. And yeah, I'll snap pics of the terminals and hopefully they won't look like sausage dip.

Tim;n68024 said:
Don't worry, man. If you eat all that dip you'll be dead in the morning anyway.
I can think of worse ways of dying than OD'ing on sausage dip!
 
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The battery can have 12 volts and still not have enough current avalible to start the car. When you get it started again go right to the auto parts store and have the battery load tested. At 5 years no matter how it tested I would replace it just so it did not leave me stranded in the near future. If the battery tests good then have the alternator and starter tested. Most likly will be a bad battery if not then there is probably a bad spot in your starter motor.
 
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Did the starter click when you turned the key but not engage and spin the engine? I'm having that issue with my truck and it's mostly likely the contacts and plunger worn out in the starter. Got the parts just need to put them in. I'll get either a click and not spin, nothing, or it will start. I almost always get at least a click. That click is the plunger engaging the gear on the starter. But if the contacts are worn you don't get a solid connection to spin the starter. Just another thing to consider, look at, and check off the list. Has it been getting progressively harder to start? FWIW, I thought my issue was battery related too. Until I started the truck, went to turn it off and it would not shut down because the starter locked in the on/engaged position and tried to keep the truck running. That was an exciting few minutes trying to figure things out.
 
So I checked battery voltage - it's 12.3V, and that's ~18hrs after using the car yesterday. The leads are tightly secured to the terminals. There's no corrosion on the negative terminal, and a fair bit of corrosion on the positive terminal but not terrible. I checked the voltage across the leads coming off the terminal about an inch away from the terminal - 12.3V. So the corrosion isn't getting in the way of current flowing to the lead coming off the pos terminal.

Short Fuse;n68379 said:
The battery can have 12 volts and still not have enough current avalible to start the car. When you get it started again go right to the auto parts store and have the battery load tested. At 5 years no matter how it tested I would replace it just so it did not leave me stranded in the near future. If the battery tests good then have the alternator and starter tested. Most likly will be a bad battery if not then there is probably a bad spot in your starter motor.
Wasn't aware of this. I figured a battery over 12V is good so long as it can hold that charge (my last dying battery could take a charge and get over 12V, but would drop below 12V within 24 hours and below 11V within 2 days).

Yeah, I'll take it to Advance Auto; as I recall from 5 years ago, their diagnostic equipment checks the starter in addition to the battery.
 
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Alright, so I had Advance Auto run diagnostics. Battery voltage is good, but charge is a little low: 447 CCA for a battery rated for 640 CCA, so a little low, but more than sufficient to start the car.

Starter and alternator test fine.




I explained the symptoms and the guy said that given the starter tests fine, it's probably the corrosion on the battery's positive terminal, which is what many of you suspected.
Negative terminal:


Positive terminal:


I cleaned the terminals off 14 months ago and covered the terminals and clamps with a little petroleum jelly, which doesn't seem to have had much effect, at least on the + terminal.

I'll clean the terminal off again and call it good in the absence of any other symptoms. Any suggestions on what I can use to slow corrosion?
 
drypowder;n68823 said:
Alright, so I had Advance Auto run diagnostics. Battery voltage is good, but charge is a little low: 447 CCA for a battery rated for 640 CCA, so a little low, but more than sufficient to start the car.


I cleaned the terminals off 14 months ago and covered the terminals and clamps with a little petroleum jelly, which doesn't seem to have had much effect, at least on the + terminal.

I'll clean the terminal off again and call it good in the absence of any other symptoms. Any suggestions on what I can use to slow corrosion?

Dielectric Grease, found at the auto parts store.

Coat the contacts AFTER you reattach the wires to the terminals.


I also use it in my .22 suppressor and 9mm booster. Win-win.

20121023dielectricgreasetube.JPG
 
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I would replace that battery. A new one would test out around 700ish and loose change. So in reality, that battery is half of what a new one is.

plus, (copy/pasted)

[h=2]Car battery corrosion cause[/h]

Corrosion at Battery Terminals Usually, battery terminal corrosion occurs when the factory seal between the battery case and the lead terminal has failed, allowing some electrolyte to work its way through to the outside. It tends to "wick" upward on the terminal post, and eventually to the cable clamp also.
 
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Mike Overlay;n68828 said:
I would replace that battery. A new one would test out around 700ish and loose change. So in reality, that battery is half of what a new one is.

plus, (copy/pasted)

Car battery corrosion cause



Corrosion at Battery Terminals Usually, battery terminal corrosion occurs when the factory seal between the battery case and the lead terminal has failed, allowing some electrolyte to work its way through to the outside. It tends to "wick" upward on the terminal post, and eventually to the cable clamp also.
Copy that, will do. Low charge + 5yrs old, so probably nearing end of life. Not worth trying to eke out several months to the beginning of next winter and risk having it fail during a cold spell before this winter is over.
 
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Replaced the battery, so that's one less thing to worry about. Now I can get back to polishing off that sausage dip.

Thanks for the info and advice, fellas.
 
drypowder;n69492 said:
Replaced the battery, so that's one less thing to worry about. Now I can get back to polishing off that sausage dip.

Thanks for the info and advice, fellas.

Good idea cause batteries never die at a good time or good place.
 
So the old battery was replaced with an Autocraft Gold battery from Advance Auto in Jan 2017.

No issues starting since then, until yesterday. Yesterday, starter engaged and repeatedly tried to turn engine over, but failed. Repeated several times with same results. Ended up roll starting (thank goodness for manny trannies).

Checked voltage this morning - 12.3V across the battery terminals. Will go to Advance Auto and have them run their battery/charging system diagnostics.

Anyone care to guess what the issue is?

Diagnostic tests from Jan 2017 (with old battery):
M2Csa8O.jpg

5JP1xQj.jpg
 
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My .02:

A weak starter that hits on the compression stroke will often not have enough strength to get past it.
The same starter, hitting on the exhaust stroke, will be allowed a "running start" before it hits the compression stroke.

This is (likley) why it started after you attempted to roll start it.

Also, a weak battery causes accelerated wear on electric motors (increased heat).

For instance, running a refrigerator off too small a generator will cause early failure.
I would clean up the chassis ground on your battery first.
Then look at the connections on the starter (tight, good connection between wire & terminal end etc.)

My bet is the starter needs replaced.
 
I believe the battery has a bad cell, most likely shorted cell.

Use the red and green felt battery washers, the USA made type at walmart to
keep terminals clean and corrosion free.
 
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Check the ground connection. Check the connections from the battery to<>from the solenoid and at the starter
 
Worn starter motor brushes maybe. Odd that a battery that new is dead. You may have some kind of parasitic draw...
 
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