NRA hating on the 1911

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trcubed said:
Bad trigger discipline, and a horrible grip. Surely that's a (bad) joke...
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Happens more than we as responsible smart gun owners like to think about.

I once trained a guy who asked in class for more lessons. Ok no problem. At the first 1 on 1 lesson at the range he explained to me in detail how he was going to carry his brand new kimber loaded yet hammer down on a chambered round. That way "All I have to do is cock the hammer and not worry about the safety." He wanted to show me how he had practiced it at home.

That promptly ended the lesson and I informed this young man good luck when he shoots himself or someone else i hope he has a good attorney.

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That's just weird. Are they going to allow modern plastic guns with external safeties? If you show up with a CZ75 will they send you home for being to 1911 like?

For that picture, maybe he's shooting at a guy who's just out of frame about to do some ninja like BJJ takedown? His finger is on the trigger because he's actually firing toward the ground? :)


On a serious note though, I was actually thinking about checking out the program. Now I'm not so sure.
 
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So did a bit of digging apparently the terrible trigger discipline and grip come from that being a reconstructed hand that got blown up by a grenade. That is as straight as his index finger can go.
 
Looking at that picture again, it almost looks like the pistol has been photoshopped into his hand. It looks like he's touching the grip with only the tips of his fingers and thumb. If I had that grip, I'd figure on dropping the gun.
 
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MurphyLong said:
Not trying to stir the pot, but what's the problem with him wanting to carry that way?
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I don't see why people be hate'n on double action 1911's. I loved my para ordinance. Smoothest trigger I've ever owned.

No problem with the double action 1911s. Not my cup of tea however I did own one for a while.

@MurphyLong that's not the way the gun was designed to be carried. However if that's your deal go for it as long as you train properly and feel comfortable with it. (I carry a pistol with clipdraw and have for years and I am very comfortable with it) My issue with this guy was that as he was demonstrating or attempting to before I stopped him this technique it became very apparent that would shoot himself or someone else at some point while trying to bring the hammer up.

To each their own.

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Guessing it's the same reasoning that other instructors have talked about.
1) Almost every other common "duty" gun is a double stack with at least a ten round capacity. Novice 1911 shooters suck at reloading and cry about it, other novice shooters cry about not being able to shoot longer drills, majority rules and the drills have higher shot counts.
2) Many novice 1911 shooters have unreliable guns, bought that way or fixed til they broke, in addition to being unable to diag and clear malfunctions at speed.
Now it seems like both of these are teaching opportunities, but that assumes they're interested in teaching and not turning max profit, using minimal instructors to pump
as many students through with a certificate and smile as possible.
 
MurphyLong said:
Not trying to stir the pot, but what's the problem with him wanting to carry that way?
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If you are letting the hammer down on a loaded chamber it is very easy to slip and have that road go off. Now if you want to carry with the hammer down on an unloaded chamber that's a little different. Still not the way I would want to carry it but the 1911 carry condition debate will wage on into eternity right next to 9vs45 and semi auto vs revolver, to each his own. I think I could draw and rack a slide just as fast I could draw and pull the hammer back so I don't see why anyone would risk an ND to carry it the way his student wanted to.
 
To so how unrealistic it is to carry hammer down on a loaded chamber just have a friend stand next to you on the firing line with a striker fired pistol or double action revolver and say go, draw and fire, do it ten times and I'd be surprised if you came close to his time one out of ten. If you have plenty of warnings and time to cock your firearm maybe you will have a chance, but in a situation where I have to use my fire arm I want every advantage, so I carry cocked and locked, if you're training to carry hammer down ,you're probably training to fail, just my opinion, I carried some type of 1911 for 37 years and shot many idpa stages so a cocked and locked 1911 on my belt is like a old friend , Sorry NRA but you're wrong on this one
 
I just carry a grenade...but I have to constantly remind myself to "pull pin, throw grenade" instead of "pull pin and throw pin".

I have always carried my 1911 in Condition 1 and never had a problem or felt uncomfortable. I had an old friend who was a training instructor for a major city PD and he would tell his officers that if they encountered a subject carrying a 1911 in Condition 1, in a well worn leather holster, to be very polite and respectful because chances were good they could put a round in their skull before they could even blink. Kind of funny in a odd kind of way but there was probably some truth in that statement. A 1911 can be faster than a pissed off rattlesnake in the hands of a skilled operator. And that first bite is nothing to joke about.
 
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MurphyLong said:
I personally carried my 1911 with a round chambered, and hammer down for a long time, but I ended up getting a different 1911, now I don't have to. My issue was the ambi safety was constantly flicking "Off" and I found myself constantly touching my pistol to make sure it was still on... That's probably when I should have just modified the safety, but I modified my method instead.
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I can certainly see how that would be cause for concern. I'm a lefty so all my 1911s have ambi safeties and while I never had that problem with them I did have a S&W shield that when I carried it in an IWB holster my belt would activate the mag release. Needless to say I don't own that one anymore.
 
And how many times have there been ADs when reholstering a Glock?

It is not the tool's fault ... it is the users!
If the user does not know how to use the tool properly ... the user's fault!
If the tool is not functioning properly yet the user chooses to use it and not repair it ... the users fault!
And this goes for things other than 1911s ... it would include any firearm, vehicle, chainsaw, power tool, etc. our society refuses to except responsibility way to much and place the blame on something other than themselves.
 
While I believe it's their classes and they can have whatever rules they want, it further reinforces my preference for instructors who have a "bring what you have" attitude and want you to learn to fight/shoot with what you are most comfortable with or even what you can afford. While it's not optimal, I know of one of our local instructors who would train a student using a Marlin 60 and a Single Six before he would pull gear snob.


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DCGallim said:
So did a bit of digging apparently the terrible trigger discipline and grip come from that being a reconstructed hand that got blown up by a grenade. That is as straight as his index finger can go.
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God bless him. He gets a pass from me for sure.
 
B00ger said:
While I believe it's their classes and they can have whatever rules they want, it further reinforces my preference for instructors who have a "bring what you have" attitude and want you to learn to fight/shoot with what you are most comfortable with or even what you can afford. While it's not optimal, I know of one of our local instructors who would train a student using a Marlin 60 and a Single Six before he would pull gear snob.


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When I took the Basis Pistol Instructor class, they told me the NRA forbade me to call a handgun a 'weapon.' That pretty much ended my NRA instructor career then and there.


Tailhunter said:
He probably has learned to do it with his injuries. Who cares, really.
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Agreed. If that's the best he can do because of his injury, and he can make it work for him, great. Reality is that the NRA should have had sense enough to use a different picture without the obvious safety issue we all harp on.
 
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So NRA trainers aren't necessarily competent enough not to shoot themselves with a scary 1911 because manual safety is hard?
 
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I took my concealed carry class with a 1911 because that's the platform I was the most proficient with. Don't understand where the NRA's coming from, because not everyone prefers "modern" pistols.
 
I understand they're trying to showcase the instructor, but I just think that is a very poor picture to use for the majority of the population to look at as correct gun handling. Especially coming from the NRA. Most people wont go to the trouble to find out why he was doing what he was doing in that picture. Three-quarters of the population will think that's the way you should draw from your holster, the other quarter will realize "God," what is he doing?"

Also, to speak on the condition you carry your 1911, because you care what I think :) ,.. being a Process Management guy, you are introducing a step to the process that is unnecessary. If you have reliable equipment, you should allow that equipment to function as it's supposed to ie. A safety. If you are trusting that piece of equipment with your life, it should function as it should, and should be reliable no matter what. And you should be safe with the safety mechanisms John Browning installed on the gun.

For what it's worth, having to rack a slide... number one, takes up valuable time that may cost you your life. Number two, you are inserting a step, while under duress, that has a potential of high incidence of failure, chambering a round.
 
They need new instructors period! To be an expert or master you must at least understand the basic operations of all types of actions ie methods of operations. Same way a hunters ed instructor needs to go over bolt actions, single shots, pumps, semis and lever guns. If operating a general concealed carry class then be prepared for whatever the student brings in. Do have loaners if they discover their pet gun doesn't work.


CD
 
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