Optic Recommendation
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Chuckman
Senior Member
While I appreciate your truth regarding optics, after the OP sends several thousands of rounds he'll need a another rebarrel. And if he doesn't reload, a reloader.
But if he doesn't need a high-end optic, there is no reason for him to spend the big bucks for a high-end optic.
With regard to the poll, of those three and only those three, I would go straight in the middle. But OP, I think you are doing a disservice by excluding some others.
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T
The Green Heron
Guest
Chuck I simply dont want to p!$$ off any fanboys. I'm not doing a disservice, I'm simply giving advice without hurting feelings.
But.
Of all the scopes on that list, a Viper PST would be my last choice. I honestly know very little about the Sightron, I know some guys who use them but I've never put one in my hands.
I cannot count the number of "new in box, never mounted" PSTs I have seen for sale. I could get very detailed, but let me tell you what that means most of the time with that particular scope: Bought one, mounted one, went TU, fantastic customer service sent a brand new scope, decided to sell it and buy a better scope.
I could go into a long spiel, explaining what it says about quality, when a company can send you a brand new replacement. They throw the one you send back in the trash.
Lots of folks think cause Vortex makes the Razor, the PST is a great mid level alternative.....One can do a lot better in quality for $950.
I wrote an extremely long treatise on this subject years ago on Snipers Hide, I have neither the time not inclination to reproduce it here.
I'll not reccomend a product that I would not buy. The reason so few people rock the boat on certain products, is the seeming cult following they have.
He may not NEED a high end scope, but he sure as heck has one listed.
Just because Chevrolet makes the Corvette, that doesn't make the Chevette a great product or a good investment.
But.
Of all the scopes on that list, a Viper PST would be my last choice. I honestly know very little about the Sightron, I know some guys who use them but I've never put one in my hands.
I cannot count the number of "new in box, never mounted" PSTs I have seen for sale. I could get very detailed, but let me tell you what that means most of the time with that particular scope: Bought one, mounted one, went TU, fantastic customer service sent a brand new scope, decided to sell it and buy a better scope.
I could go into a long spiel, explaining what it says about quality, when a company can send you a brand new replacement. They throw the one you send back in the trash.
Lots of folks think cause Vortex makes the Razor, the PST is a great mid level alternative.....One can do a lot better in quality for $950.
I wrote an extremely long treatise on this subject years ago on Snipers Hide, I have neither the time not inclination to reproduce it here.
I'll not reccomend a product that I would not buy. The reason so few people rock the boat on certain products, is the seeming cult following they have.
He may not NEED a high end scope, but he sure as heck has one listed.
Just because Chevrolet makes the Corvette, that doesn't make the Chevette a great product or a good investment.
Thanks guys, the reason for those particular scopes is because they have been mentioned here and after some research had good reviews/warranty.
The reason I added the razor is to see if people thought it was that much better that they would be willing to spend the extra money on it.
To me, 7/800 bucks is a good chunk of change and I don't have it just laying around to blow. I don't want to buy something just because it's decent and "cheap" comparatively speaking. So, if the razor is that much better, I'd rather save up a bit more. To me it's not the high end fanboy factory vs buying something that's a great quality which I will likely never have to upgrade again.
The reason I added the razor is to see if people thought it was that much better that they would be willing to spend the extra money on it.
To me, 7/800 bucks is a good chunk of change and I don't have it just laying around to blow. I don't want to buy something just because it's decent and "cheap" comparatively speaking. So, if the razor is that much better, I'd rather save up a bit more. To me it's not the high end fanboy factory vs buying something that's a great quality which I will likely never have to upgrade again.
Chuckman
Senior Member
I went back and edited the end of my previous post. I didn't mean "you" regarding a disservice by excluding others; I meant the OP.
If you wrote a treatise on this, by all means post it. If you have some expertise here, it'll benefit everyone.
I agree there are better options at that pricepoint than the PST; I also know little of the Sightron. There are plenty of great scopes for less than the Razor, though. If the OP wants a Chevrolet and is going to drive the family around, he doesn't need the Corvette (to your point, he doesn't need the Chevette, either).
Regarding optics people like what they like, and we all like to hear the objective and subjective reasons why they like what they like to help us be more informed consumers. I know everyone else can drop $1,700 for a new optic; I cannot, so when I do buy one, I want to be armed with all the info I can get.
Chuckman
Senior Member
The Razor is a GREAT scope. For the sub-$1K range, check out the SWFA line, Leupold Mark 4's can be had at a grand, and just over a grand you are entering Nightforce territory. I like them all, some are better than others, but once you get into the solid "mid" and "lower/mid-upper" tier, you have some great options. IOR Valdada (super glass, built like a tank, CS is "meh") and US Optics are a couple other outstanding choices.
Exactly that's what I'm looking for, I don't mind spending a little extra if the quality is there. I'm not looking to shoot the wings off flies, but I would like something well built that will last me a long time. I have looked into swfa or leupold, the way people speak of nightforce I just assumed they were out of my price range
Chuckman
Senior Member
You can get a Nightforce NXS for around the same price as a Razor; sometimes a bit cheaper used. In fact, there's on here now for sale $1,700 shipped.
I have a Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20, and it's great, but certainly no greater than most other scopes in the same range. In fact, I would rather shoot a SWFA 3-15 or the SWFA 10x HD than the Leupold. I think they have better glass. In fact I love me some 10x scopes, and most of the 10x scopes in the $800-$1,200 range (SWFA HD, IOR Valdada, Leupold Mark 4) are simply outstanding and built like the proverbial brick shit-house.
T
The Green Heron
Guest
LESS glass, about half as many lenses as variables. This is why they are so frappin awesome and clear, and bright. The 16x Leupold MK4 is awesome like that too, and they can be picked up in the $750 to $900 range. Built like a tank.
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The Green Heron
Guest
I am a self admitted Leupold fanboy. I developed this condition long before there was such a thing as an internet. If I was 15 years younger I might would have been a Nightforce fanboy, but I doubt it.
I was gifted a brand new VX III 3.5-10 when I was 13, I'll be 49 this year. Me and that scope have had some good times. It has been on every deer rifle I ever owned and has watched the demise of 80+ whitetails, even used to win a few trophies riding a pistol in IHMSA. It has been dropped from a kitchen table, clattered to the ground halfway down a tree, beat, banged, abused. It has never lost zero and was only ever sent to Leupold for a turret upgrade. It currently resides on my former FILs 30/06 and is still overseeing the death of whitetails, warms my heart. Good reasons to be a fanboy. I have owned and used 17 Leupold scopes, half of which have been MK4s or better.
I am a firm believer in investing in something that can, should, or will last a lifetime. You could certainly do worse than purchasing my old Leupold, but alas it is not for sale....Ever. It has become a valuable heirloom.
At one time a group of my friends and I were making a good living trading and selling each other a stable of MK4 16x Leupolds. About 5 scopes the that went back and forth for years riding various 22 rifles used for tactical matches. Most of us switched to mil\mil and several scopes entered the open market. I'm sure they are somewhere making someone very happy.
I know it seems I am rambling, but I assure you I have a point. I never lost a dime on a high end scope. Sure, they depreciate but only to a point. You have to figure a price on your use of that scope. You will however get to a point at which it levels off, a freeroll if you will.
If you find a used high end scope you enter even farther ahead of the curve. This is how I have some really nice equipment. Sure, I know a lot of people, but you can do it too if you look hard enough and watch for deals. Never buy the latest thing, just like buying a new car, you stand to lose the most.
If you buy top end you don't have to worry about finding the lunatic looking to trade down. You are always sitting on the better investment. You spend $1700 on a scope. You keep it 5 years. You have invested less than a dollar a day into "rental" on that scope, that frankly is "really that much better". Same thing if you buy a MK6, which can easily be found for less than $1500. I paid less than $1700 for the last new one I bought from Liberty Optics....New.
So after 5 years you want to sell it and buy a Harley, and forget this gun nonsense. You sell for $1200 so fast the classified doesn't get bumped. You rented one of the best optics your money could buy for $100 a year....Or less.
That was a good investment. How many people simply waste $100 a year? It is easy to do, but you didn't.
Buy a mid level scope, licking the lollipop of mediocrity, and you will lose that same $500 and you didn't really EVER have a great scope. Then again, you could hit the mediocrity lottery, scope goes TU after winding them turrets a couple hundred times, you get a new one in the mail, and you get MOST of your money back.
It is all a very personal choice, and no one knows the sting of financial hardships any better than me. I understand wanting what I can't afford. I have wasted enough money in 49 years to realize the truth of false economy though.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
I've been looking at the mark 4, but finding a mil/mil is turning out to be a bit more difficult. Seems they offer mainly mil/moa, im trying to find a used one as their warranty seems to be pretty top knotch.
May see if there any other similar models by leupold to find a nice used one.
Edit: the vx3 is actually offered in 4.5-16 & 6.5-20
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The Green Heron
Guest
Nothing wrong with mil/moa, it's just simple math. @JBoyette can help you master the mil/moa conundrum. If you aren't using a scope for competition, mixed system is not a problem. Anything can be mastered.
For these reasons some really great deals can be had on some high quality MK4 scopes.
There are lots of MK4 scopes on the used market with M5 turrets, they are mil/mil. We tried for years to get Leupold to put M5 turrets on the 16x. Long story short, the M1 turret on the 16x is nothing like the M1 on any other MK4. They are very specialized, and the turret is unique.
For these reasons some really great deals can be had on some high quality MK4 scopes.
There are lots of MK4 scopes on the used market with M5 turrets, they are mil/mil. We tried for years to get Leupold to put M5 turrets on the 16x. Long story short, the M1 turret on the 16x is nothing like the M1 on any other MK4. They are very specialized, and the turret is unique.
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billyh
Slightly Cooler Than Your Mom
I've got a FFP PST 4x16 in mil mil that could be for sale. It's not a bad scope at all for the price and would save you a little coin. Heck, you can shoot it, save for better, and sell it for about the same price. If you're interested just send me a pm.
I've owned Leupolds for over 40 years. I had one failure (the turret blew off!!) and Leupold made it right in a matter of a few weeks. All of my hunting rigs have Leupolds. But lately I've gotten into the LR plinking game and I really like the mil/mil scopes in the first focal plane. I like a nice simple zero stop too. As far as I know Leupold does not offer or compete with that type of scope. So I've been buying Vortex and Burris over the last few years. Both are great scopes, but they are not a Leupold. The day that Leupold puts out a mil/mil in FFP with a nice zero stop and a decent reticle for $1200 I'm dumping the rest. But unfortunately I don't think that will happen and I foresee them getting bought out or going under if they can't compete. And it's a shame, since Leupold scopes are put together right here in the USA using some of the best foreign parts made. 
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The Green Heron
Guest
You'd be very wrong. MK6, MK8, and even a couple MK4s.
Also give USO a look. I know it's not that magic $1200 number but....It's a lifetime investment that retains value.
I did some checking and you are correct on many of the features except I was a little confused on the reticles. But the price! Geez! For a few bucks more you could almost get a bottom line S&B or maybe 2 NF scopes. I do like USO optics too.
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The Green Heron
Guest
And who knows, one of them may actually hold zero, then you could save the other for parts.
I always heard good things about NightForce. You are saying they are not worth the money? This is a for real question, not an argument.
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The Green Heron
Guest
I know of two NXS that came right out of the box, TU. One would not pass a box test, I can't remember what the other issue was, may have been holding zero. I have used a few and up till a couple years ago I still had 20/15 eyes, I can't see the difference between a $1700 mk 6 and a $2000 Nightforce, besides the fact that the NF weighs a pound more.
I have a Burris XTR ii and a PST and side by side I think the Burris beats the Vortex hands down. Those little brass shims that you have to insert in the Vortex turret to set your zero stop is down right stupid.
Chuckman
Senior Member
The ATACR has been the issued scope in the Navy (NSW). It is not the NXS, but I think in an effort for NF to keep up with overall demand the quality may not always be there. I know the Navy trialed some NXS, didn't have a lot of probs with it. Caveat emptor and all.
Plinking out to 300 yards does not require all the cool gadgets and gizmos found on some of the higher end scopes. A good clear scope with a reticle that is easy to see and understand is all you need. I have used a whole bunch of different scopes for a variety of applications and seem to go back to a vanilla scope that lets me hit what I want to hit. My favorite is a Leupold Vari X III in 3.5-10-40. I have several of them on various AR's as well as on all my main hunting rifles. I have several with a 50mm objective but do not like them as much as I do the 40mm. I have scopes up to 20 power but find they are not as easy to use as the lower power variables. The two AR's I was shooting yesterday wear 3.5-10-40 scopes, and I had no problems hitting 6" steel gongs at 100, 200, and 300 yards.