Optics for Big Bore Rifles

Discussion in 'Big Bore Rifles' started by Michael458, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    I chose to post this here in Big Bore Rifles, as opposed to the Optics Section of the Forum. The reason being, Optics for Big Bore rifles are completely different from other rifles. Choices in Optics for smaller bores are very poor choices for Big Bores, most of the time.

    Big Bore Optics have very special requirements. If you are a novice beginning big bore shooter, you may not be aware of these requirements.

    Most Big Bore shooting does not require large magnification. Rifles and cartridges are designed for close work, in the scenario we are talking about, Close Range Dangerous Game. You don't need 12X at 10-25 yards. Even most shots at deer, say with 45/70, will be less than a 100 yards. I like variable power, 1X5, or 1X4 is more than sufficient for these type guns.

    Rule #1 Durable, Rugged, Reliable.

    Big bore rifles are extremely destructive to most Optics. I have busted almost all of them, regardless of price. Rifle Scopes need to be able to withstand the recoil. There are not many that can hold up to the beatings that a big bore rifle can dish out. This is especially true of 1" scopes. I prefer 1" by a long shot, they are lighter, and less bulky than 30mm. But 30mm scopes are more robust and in some cases much tougher than the 1 inch versions. But not always, I have busted my share of very expensive 30mm scopes as well.

    Rule #2 Field of View.

    You want, need, a very large field of view at very close range in a Dangerous Game Rifle. At 10 yards, you want to be able to throw the rifle up and be able to see an entire length of bear or lion in your field of view, with it broadside. The last thing on earth you want is to throw your rifle to your shoulder and see a patch of hair and nothing more! You want to be able to see the entire animal if possible. At 10 yards you want to be able to see a good bit of elephant, buffalo and hippo as well. Field of view at 100 yards on Minimum Power should be high, my now favorite model is the Nikon 1X4 Monarch, it has 93 ft field of view at 100 yards.

    Rule #3 Eye Relief.

    You need a lot of eye relief with these rifles. You are dealing with a lot of recoil and need in the range of 3.8-4.5 inches of Eye Relief. Much less than 3.8 inches you might start getting banged in the head, especially if you do not hold on to that rifle tight, like you should. 4 inches of eye relief is a good rule of thumb. More is better.

    Rule #4 Size.

    You don't want to be over sized. You may be carrying this rifle/scope for many miles, you don't want a scope to be heavy, long, cumbersome. But even more important, the bigger and more cumbersome that scope is, the slower it is to get into action at close range. Remember, these are big bore rifles, setup for Dangerous Game. Things can happen very fast, and very close. Size Matters, but in this case, smaller is better!

    Rule #5 Buy Two.

    Whatever scope you choose, buy TWO and have a spare on a trip to far reaches of the world, where spares are not available. Even if your scope does not break or go haywire on a trip, other mishaps can take it out of action. I had a friend that fell on his rifle/scope in some really rough terrain. Be busted the scope off the rifle, breaking the rings. Fortunately, I had a spare scope, and we both used QRW Rings and bases from Leupold. It was simple to get him back in action.

    These are the basics for Optics on Big Bores, with the main focus currently on Scopes, not various red dots, which we will take a look at during the process of this thread.

    I suppose you could also make this a rule, but Dangerous Game Big Bore rifles, should always wear Iron Sights. While it might be rare, and dependent upon the individual, iron sights can be an asset under certain circumstances.

    Scope should not be attached to a DGR with permanent or semi-permanent mounts/rings. I have used exclusively Leupold QRW Rings and bases on all my rifles. They are easy to remove and replace in the field with no tools required, turn the lever! In the case of having two scopes set up for the rifle, and sighted in, it is very simple to remove a scope, replace it with the spare. POI is close, I conducted many tests here, and never once had the POI off more than 1 inch at 50 yards, and the vast majority of the time less than 1/2 inch off. Again, this could also be made a Rule of Optics for big bores, and especially one that is going on a trip into the bush, where there is no corner Gun Shop available, and no Amazon Deliveries! One more note, use Low Rings. You want to be as low as possible on the rifle, not with your head poking up into the sky.
     
  2. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Rule #1 Rugged, Reliable, and Durable

    I probably have busted more scopes than any single human on the planet. I have busted many a Leupold, Swarovski, and Zeiss. For years I used Rule#2--Rule#5 for my choice of scopes, I used Leupold 1.5X5 Vari X and then VX3s. I kept 15 or so on hand with many being on rifles. All set up QRW Rings/bases, for quick change out. When I was doing so much load development and bullet Tech test work, I was shooting on average 10'000 + rounds of big bore every year, for many years. Rifles from .416 to .500 caliber. It got to the point that I would have 4-5 Leupolds at the Repair Center, and 4-5 broken ones on the bench, waiting for the others to return before sending these. I have busted NEW Leupold's straight out of the box within 3 rounds! It got to be rather comical at one point.

    This was not just aggravation, but it was seriously effecting my efficiency of getting serious work done. I spent a hell of a lot of time changing and setting up scopes, weekly. I complained to JD at one point about it, and he contacted someone he knew at Leupold and told them. This person called me one day, I explained what was happening. He suggested their 30mm 1X6 Scope as being more robust and heavy duty. I replied that 30mm is just so damn big, fat, and heavy, it was out of place on many of my rifles in the B&M series. He wanted to send one for me to try, I refused at first, later in the conversion I relented to have one sent to me. He also stated that if it worked, that he would replace all my 1.5X5s with this scope!!!!! HOLY COW..... Now listen, these 1X6 Leupolds were running $1200 each at the time, and he was going to replace 15 of mine with those? Pretty good deal I reckon. He sent the scope, it was nice, and it was Big, Fat, Robust, and heavy too. I shot a few hundred rounds through it in 50 B&M, which is the worst scope busting rifle on the planet, even more so than 500 MDM. But in the end I did not like it because of its size and weight. I sent it back after a few months, thanking him for the tryout, and also refusing his trade out.

    I went in search of something else. Now, I had to use Rule 2 Field Of View, Rule 3 Eye Relief, and Rule 4 Size, to choose something in the same class as the 1.5X5 Leupold, with all those factors.

    What I tried was a Trijicon 1X4, Nikon 1X4, Weaver 1X3. All compact, about the same size as the Leupold. The Weaver came up short on a few things, so it was put to the side before even mounting it up. The Nikon I didn't like those taller Turrent's it sported, but eye relief was great, it was very clear, better than the Leupold, and its field of view was fantastic, better than the Leupold. But those tall turrents turned me off a bit. The Trijicon was good on all counts, one small issue it had was mounting. It needed to come further back about a 1/4 inch on the rifles, I was having to move my head slightly forward to get a full field of view.

    I went to work with the Trijicon and the Nikon. In the end, both held up extremely good, no busted scopes at all. The more I used the Nikon, the better I liked it. Another point I liked about the Nikon was the price. Now price SHOULD NOT have an impact on a Dangerous Game Rifle at all. But in this case, price was considered. I had yet to bust the Nikon or the Trijicon, I needed at least 12 scopes minimum, and more like 15 or more to keep things rolling here. At the time I paid $600 for the Trijicon, and $275 for the Nikon! For 12 of them that would be $3300 for Nikons or $7200 for the Trijicons. I decided I would try two or three more Nikons to start off with.

    At the time they were called Nikon African. Later they dropped the African, and just Monarch. All 1X4 and German Crosshairs. After hundreds of rounds of 500 caliber, I still had not broken one or busted one. I decided to try a few more. I did, and they performed. Today, I don't know how many, but at least 15+ of the 1X4 Nikons, and hundreds and thousands of rounds of big bores fired, and still have not busted one yet. Field of View is incredibly good, clear glass, positive movements, great eye relief, the Nikon has everything going for it, and no negatives, including price! It could not be much better than that.

    Soon I decided to get rid of all my Leupold scopes, I put 35 or so up for sale, all sizes and sorts on all rifles. Price's were right, a couple of weeks I was rid of the lot of them. The only Leupold Scopes I kept were 3-4 of the forward mount Scout Scopes 2X. Those had proven durable and heavy duty, never busted one. But field of view is horrendous on those scopes, not suitable for a Dangerous Game Scope at all.

    I replaced all the Leupolds with various Nikons. I must have at least 40+ Nikons on hand and on rifles currently, and to this day, I still have not broken, busted or had not one single issue with a Nikon Scope. It was unheard of for me, and still surprises me after all the issues with all the more expensive scopes. I still carried two scopes when on a trip, no longer being concerned about the scope failure, but I can always fall on one and bust it off.

    I also still have the Trijicon, it has held up and is solid as can be. It has a German Crosshair as well, and is dandy, if you can get it on a rifle that sits 1/4 further back, so you can get on it without moving your face forward. It has withstood the 500s and 458s too.

    Leupold 1.5X5 on B&M rifle

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    I also tried a few of the cheaper VX2s 1X4 Leupold

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    The Nikon 1X4 and the Leupold 1.5X5

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    On some rifles, like the 416 B&M and the 9.3 B&M a little more magnification can be utilized, here you see a Leupold 2.5X8 and the Nikon 2X8.

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  3. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Rule #4 SIZE..........

    Here is a good example why Size Matters.............................I think it will be "Self Explanatory"...........................................HEH HEH

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. 11B CIB

    11B CIB Administrator Staff Member Charter Life Member

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    Was the Leupold they offered to trade out the Mk6 1-6?

    And I guess needing 15 of them has kept you away from the S&B 1.1-4x20 Short Dots....only about $2900 each when you can find them
     
  5. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member

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    I think the type of optic historically picked is wrong.

    All the requirements you listed direct me to a AimPoint Micro or RMR from Trijicon.

    I would run one of them before a LPVO for hunting under 150yds
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
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  6. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    We will get to the Red Dots and RMRs....... Been there.

    That would have a bearing, there is no doubt about it. But, field of view is only 42 feet at 100 yards, not sure what a lion looks like at 10 yards? Also, 30mm big fat and bulky. And I think eye relief is a bit short, but would have to check that......

    Today, with the success of the little Nikon, its really a moot point. Unless of course one wishes to spend more money, for less.................
     
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  7. 11B CIB

    11B CIB Administrator Staff Member Charter Life Member

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    The 1.1-4 S&B is a bulky one...and I think the FOV @ 100yds is even less than that...in the 30s. Eye relief is like 3.25”. I don’t know what a Lion looks at 10yds when it could possibly eat me. The ones laying around at the zoo don’t quite do the same thing for adrenaline...my experience isn’t quite the same or applicable :D
     
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  8. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    I have two full mount lions 10 steps from my load/Gun Room door. First thing I do with a new scope I am not familiar with, mount it, and take a look at those lions. If I can see all the lions, entire body, at 10 steps on low power, I am happy with that. That is my Field of View test.
     
  9. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    [​IMG]

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    For some folks a Red Dot or similar might work very well. On the range and in open areas, I can get by pretty good too. On the range I do develop some issues with Red and now Green dots. The DOT does not remain a DOT for me, or my eyes, it becomes a diagonal LINE. Now, what part of the line do I use, left top? Right bottom? Center of the line? Makes it a bit difficult on the range for precision for me. Now this is FOR ME ONLY, and does not apply to everyone. But this is not the main reason I have an issue with DOT sights.

    The main reason I have an issue with these type sights is in the field, and if you are open area, all good. But the minute I get in brush, I cannot make out things. I can't see brush, animals in the brush. I can't see well with them in shaded areas.

    A M71 lever gun is a bitch to put optics on. Has to be forward mount, as it ejects out the top. Scout scopes work great on these guns, on the range. In the field, they have no field of view at all. I tried several Red Dots on this gun, and ended up using a Ultra Dot thing. The reticle is a Circle with a dot in the middle, I do very well with these. On the hippo taken shown above, he just so happened to be in open ground. It worked great, I could see, it was sunny, and no brush and in the open........... The buffalo on the other hand indeed ended up in brush and shaded area. I had one hell of a time with him. At one point, I had to ask my PH Andrew, which end was ass and which end was head, I could not make it out.

    Other times using a Red Dot I also had serious issues in thick brush.

    Now, this is me, if your eyes are good enough, then a Dot System is great. When it comes to Brush and Shade in the field, I am screwed, I just can't see good enough with those systems.

    I have done several Sight Tests here. Big bore rifles, close range 10 yards. Both Novice and Professional Shooters. Novice shooters are faster and more precise with Red Dot Systems than Irons and Scoped Systems. I am faster and more accurate with Scope Systems than either Dot Or Irons. But I can handle the other sight systems, if in the open and or on the range. Its thick brush and shade where I start to have issues.

    I love the Vortex Spitfires, and have 15 or 20 or more of these things. They are Red/Green, and they are Circle/Dot. On ARs and such, they are superb. Most likely I will not be in Brush with these, chasing dangerous game. If in shade or dark, I will turn the light on. LOL...... But I suspect if I had on on a DGR, and in brush, I might have those same issues.

    Historically, I made the right choice for me, my eyes, and what I can work with the best, and have the most confidence in. I also have always used a scope, so it is fast for me, and natural.
     
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  10. cold1

    cold1 Member Supporting Member

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    I'm shooting mid range marlin loads in my 1895. I have an eye condition and I had to move to glass on my rifle, even for short range work. I settled on a Burris Fullfield II with 2X7 power. It stays on 2 power for hunting in the woods. It shoulders fast and lines up real well. Best of all, it's small and doesn't look out of place on the rifle.
     
  11. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Very Excellent Cold1. Exactly what I was talking about above, you have found a great system that works properly for you. And, does not overpower the rifle or the handling of the rifle. I think you got it.
     
  12. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member

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    @Michael458

    Great post. On RDS systems your finding's are common. If interested in doing more RDS options finding a prism RDS will fix the reticle odd shape situation.
     
  13. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    I believe the Votex Spitfire is prism? Its circle, dot, red or green, I do better with green. Dot is small, I believe 2MOA. I don't have issues with it to speak of, with the dot turning into a line. I also recently bought a
    Vortex Viper... I think that's it. One of the Windshield sights.... For lack of better description. Put it on a Beretta 22lr handgun, its working great for me. I need to play with it some more, and considered trying it
    on a big bore rifle just to see as well. I also got one of the Holosun Sights, green circle/dot. Its on a AR as well, I like it pretty good too.... I need to work more with these to have a better opinion however. So Yes, I
    am investigating things, as always, and always looking for something better, or magical! HEH........

    Thanks!
     
  14. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Still however, I don't think any of those systems would suit me in thick brush and or shade/shadows. The eyes are just not good enough for that. Even worse with Irons these days....... Open area, yes, but on a DGR and hunting Dangerous Game, you can count on thick brush and shadows/shade most of the time. Hell, I have been 6-10 yards from elephants and brush so thick you could not see the elephants at all. Get down in hands and knees and might get a glimpse of legs moving..... Been there.
     
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  15. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member

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    @Michael458 try the Trijicon MRO. Its one of the higher end scale of simple dot prism RDS sights.

    With bush that thick you must think its the 70's all over again. Lol ;)
     
  16. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    I, too, really like the Vortex Spitfire for a 1X. I prefer the original one.
    Indeed, it is a prism scope with an etched reticle, and work well even with no illumination. And bright glass and better clarity than I’ve seen on any red dots. Also, the center dot is so crisp you can get a great sight picture on longer precision-y shots.
    Leupold had a similar option but was discontinued. I like these prism sights and they’re great for people with astigmatism.
    Wish there were more options. The few others available have dumb (imo) reticles.

    All this in the context of absolutely no clue what is right for this kind of hunting and these guns. I am quite surprised to hear of the performance of the Nikons.
     
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  17. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    @Michael458 , Billy and I have talked about this. When I look through a red/green dot sight, there is no dot. There is a splash or starburst effect for me. The lower intensity, the better. If I turn it higher, the splash gets bigger.
     
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  18. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    It is best to keep in mind when offering up these "ideas" that Mike has killed several Elephants, Lions, Cape Buffs, Huge Crocs, Hippos and many other things that are on the move to Kill you. Not once but Multiple times in Safaris that last weeks. His experiences with Leupold have caused Many Nikons to be sold World Wide. The top folks at Leupold contacted him several times. His influence on Big Game Hunting world wide is not to be taken lightly. I tell you this because he won't. He has hunting royalty calling from private jets to ask questions. His choices are indeed what works for him But they have become the accepted "norm" because of him and his world wide hunts.
     
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  19. JimP42

    JimP42 Mostly harmless Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    That is probably astigmatism (something wrong with your eye).

    Try an etched reticle like a Vortex Spitfire - they don’t do that when illuminated, and can be used with no illumination and you get a black reticle like a scope. So if you battery goes out, you can still use it until dusk.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Mike has some guy that pokes needles in his eyes every month. I'm sure he would get you in for some of that.
     
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  21. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Dots for me are a comet, so I use the head of the comet and it’s about 4moa. Have an old spitfire, need to give it a try.

    Probably a stupid question, but man-sized or larger animal typically taken within 100yards, why not use irons in the field? For ammo development I understand using a scope or putting the rifle in a fixture, but in the field aren’t all of your requirements (except buy 2) best met by irons?
     
  22. JimP42

    JimP42 Mostly harmless Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Irons are good, but not _as_ good in the right hands. Two very simple reasons.

    First, with irons you have to focus on the front sight, with a dot (or prism reticle, or LPVO like a 1-4) you focus on the target. So, in an actual situation with irons, you can either remember your training and focus on the front sight, and the target won't be in as clear focus, or most likely, in the adrenaline rush you will be watching the target (and probably not the center of mass, but the gun that is shooting at you or the knife waving around!), and the front iron will be out of focus.

    Second, with irons you have to line up 3 things, with a dot, just 2 - put the dot/reticle on the target (and both are in focus). If you are moving, or shooting around cover, or shooting from some other awkward position, a dot anywhere in the window is on the target, with irons you have to line them all up.

    So I think a dot _can_ be better, but you have to train with one. They aren't the same, and if you aren't used to a dot on a pistol, they can be very hard to use initially. On a rifle, you have a cheek weld (or other reference position) where you know the dot will show up in your field of view. With a dot on a pistol, that doesn't happen automatically - you have to present the pistol close enough to on target that the dot is in the window, or adjust the gun around to find it (which is slow and painful). There is on front sight and rear sight on the gun in view to line up - not so with the dot. So definitely train for it. You have to be able to draw and present and the dot is there, every time, or it will be slower and more difficult.
     
  23. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Yes, the Flare or the line that I see is astigmatism I am told. The brighter and bigger the Dot, the worse it is.


    Jim is 100% spot on. One of the reasons I like the Vortex is the Etched reticle, black and always there, battery or not. I also prefer the Circle/Dot to just the Dot. The only issue with the Vortex is that it does not sit well
    on a DGR Bolt gun. For AR type guns, it is the ticket.. When doing any sight in or test work with these, I use mostly the black reticle, I rarely turn them on.

    Yes, and in fact I get to have that done today at 12:15.....>> Fun! But today its just the Right Eye, not both........
     
  24. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Stupid questions are the ones not asked. At some point, the choice of Sight Systems for anything becomes personal preference, and what might work for the rifle, or scenario in which you wish to embark upon. And more important, what works for the individual.

    For me personally, I can't see irons good enough to have a great deal of confidence in the shot. And the hunting I have done 50 yards is extreme long range, not 100. Most of the work I have done has been inside 25 yards. In all circumstances I am faster and more accurate on target with the scope than I am either Irons or Red Dot. The scope gives me clarity in most all situations I have encountered, without having to take that extra millisecond to pick something out in the brush, or shadows, shade and so forth.

    I have hunted a few times with irons alone, and other than hitting a few trees in between, it worked out ok, but this was not on Dangerous Game. I hunted Alaska once with a 1885 in 45/70 and iron sights. It was a pleasure to work with. Was moose hunting, got my moose, but did shoot through a 3 inch tree that I did not see to get it. LOL....... Later shot a wolf at about 25 yards.

    I went back to the scene of the shooting, and cut the section of tree out that I had shot through and brought it home. I have it to this day. As a reminder of things done.

    [​IMG]

    I mentioned above about the brush and trouble with the Red Dots, well, same or even worse with irons. I am just not able to see with as much clarity as I would like to have with various Red Dots or Irons. And, I have always shot a scope, so it is very natural and comes up instantly for me. Irons I would have to start looking around for everything to line up right, extra time and sometimes you don't have that time to be as precise as you need to be.
    I can't tell you how many guys miss elephant brains at 10-20 yards with irons, and elephants run away! But these are mostly guys that are not as experienced as they should be, or shoot as much as they should, and most are carrying double rifles and playing the nostalgic great white hunter.

    Irons may indeed work great for some, Red Dots for some, and Scopes for some. For me it is the Scope without question. But it has to be and needs to be the right sort of scope, and that is what I am trying to convey. Scopes are different than choosing various other systems, for the most part. You have more things that need to be considered, the rules in post #1.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
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  25. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    My first Red Dot experiences were with the Aimpoint, this version......

    [​IMG]

    As you see here it is mounted with a 30mm QRW Ring, these are single point. Long ago, before indoor shooting, I was at the 50 yard bench doing something with a big bore and one of these mounted on the front of the receiver in QRW Bases, exactly as you see on the receiver above... Not the Forward Mount like on this gun. I am busy shooting along, and the gun was a heavy thumper.

    Now this is benchwork, so I am hunkered in tight, take a shot, recover from recoil and there is no more Aimpoint? The damn Aimpoint is GONE??????????? WTF????????? Where did the Aimpoint go? It is not on the gun any longer? Not on the bench, not around the bench? I get up, turn around and find the Aimpoint 20 feet behind me laying in the dirt! Recoil had broken the QRW rings off at the base and sent the Aimpoint over my head during recoil and landing behind me. LOL........

    Big bore rifles bring new considerations into every decision you make when it comes to Sight Systems.

    For this a single point attachment just is not a good idea on a big bore.

    Later I used one of these on another "big Bore", well, at least in bore size alone. I took a 45 Colt lever gun to Tanzania in 2005 as a camp gun, and something to play with. In addition to making a dandy little gun to have handy while in South Africa as well.............. I shot a few things with it, but I also had a lot of issues when animals were in any sort of brush or shadow/shaded areas. I missed a warthog at about 30 yards just simply because I could not tell which end was which....... That ended up in a long drawn out followup that used my time and efforts in ways I would rather not have done. Time spent elswhere would have been more enjoyable than followup.

    In the open where I can see, Red Dot, no problems......

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Of course the Aimpoint stayed on the 45 Colt, not enough recoil to cause any issues at all........
     
  26. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    The last few years I discovered The Crimson Trace Railmaster! Damn I love this thing. I have them mounted on every AR platform I own, nearly. I buy now only the Green, I see green better. And, you can see Green in Daylight, depending on the background and distance. I only discovered this thing after retiring from hunting, so never took one to the field. I did think about it and tried one on the range just to see what it would do on a big bore gun. At the time this was a 475 B&M and shooting a 425 North Fork at a mere 2125 fps, roughly 200 fps lower than max pressure. I don't recall exactly what I was doing with that load at this time. But I was not trying to see if I could break the Crimson, just playing around to see if it would shoot.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And like the Red/Green dots, the laser also turns into a "diagonal Line" for me instead of a DOT..............

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It shot very well, I was very pleased with the results. Now whether one would hold up long on a big bore, I do not know this. I do know that the mounting system is very very weak, its plastic. You can glue the screws to keep them from working loose, but I am afraid if this thing got caught on a stick or brush, you would break it off the gun pretty easy.

    In addition, I would NEVER EVER totally rely solely upon this system. Maybe if you could mount it forward or out of the way of the primary system, scope for instance, then you might play with it in the field some, but it would always be a secondary system in that situation...........

    On the ARs I have them working with either Irons, or other system like the Vortex Spitfire, or all three.........never stand alone. These batteries do go down fairly quick. But I can also tell you that they work great, the last few years I have had some issues with Foxes. I keep a 300 BLK next to my TV Chair. I have shot about a dozen foxes out back in the last couple of years, and all of them with the Crimson Trace Green at various distances from 10 yards to 50 yards or so, even running foxes. And, mostly in the dark as well. They have been dead spot on, and no fox has escaped to date. Good stuff, but not sure the mount system is good enough for serious in the bush work.
     
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  27. cold1

    cold1 Member Supporting Member

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    Haha, me and a buddy were hunting deer many years ago. We were hunting from stands that were about 100 yds apart. I had my 4570 and my buddy had his 444. It was late evening when I heard my buddy (mike) shoot.

    Mike was shooting irons, the deer was at about 40 yards, the small pine was at about 39.5 yards. Mike didn't see the pine, it was about 4 inches in diameter, the 444 was loaded hot and had a 240gr Remington hollowpoint. It went through the pine and both shoulders of the doe. There were pine splinters stuck in the does shoulders too.
     
  28. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    I am the most Notorious Tree Killing SOB that ever took to the field! I don't make that statement Lightly. I have killed trees on several Continents, in fact, ever Continent that I have set foot on, I end up killing trees!

    Now it is not indicative of any particular sight system either. I have killed trees with Irons, Red Dots, and Scopes, all the same. I have killed trees in Australia, that are so hard that no bullet could penetrate them completely, but with the bullets I use, they whiz through them like butter! And fortunately, end up on target and take it out as well........ LOL.........

    My last trip before retiring. I am using a new 500 B&M. Shooting 410 gr Raptors at 2500 fps and change, and its matching 450 Solids at 2400 and change. The gun is a 2.5 inch RUM case, Winchester M70 RUM with 18 inch barrel. Its a hammer of a rifle and its first trip out.

    So there stands a nice old buffalo cow at 50 yards to the step. It is standing quarter on facing me, I am looking at the point of the left shoulder at an angle. The buffalo is standing under a fairly good size tree, in the shade of course. Fortunately the surrounding area is free of brush, its open. I am on the sticks, shooting the Nikons now, crosshair dead on the point of the shoulder and turn a Raptor loose. Buffalo stumbles and is hit very hard, it cannot run, all it can do is turn 180 degrees, now presenting it's right shoulder to me. You never stop shooting until the problem is solved. I am already on the shoulder dead center and turn loose one of the 450 gr Solids, buffalo goes down, kicks, and it is over. The Problem is now solved.

    I reload as we walk up to the buffalo. I am concentrating on the buffalo, just in case. I am not looking around at the surroundings, I am totally focused on the problem and to keep it from becoming a problem. My son Mark David is along with, and while looking at the downed buffalo he points out excitedly about a "Dead Tree" that I ended up shooting completely through on that second shot, with the solid.

    I had not even noticed the tree, but it had the bark completely knocked off of it on one side, bullet hole going through. Inspecting the buffalo, the solid had entered dead square on the shoulder, where I was aiming, and passed completely through the buffalo, and for all I know all these years later, it still may be going through other things............

    Now I know damn well I was looking at buffalo shoulders when I turned that shot loose! Tree?? What Tree? There was no damn tree, I saw buffalo shoulders. To this day, I remember seeing buffalo shoulders, and there was no tree there! How? After long inspection and investigation of this, I determined that there was no way I could see the buffalo shoulders from where I stood and where the buffalo was without going through this tree? But I saw it, but don't know how! Maybe X-Ray Vision? Perhaps, I don't know, and probably never will know.

    But, a 450 gr CEB #13 Solid .500 caliber is a wicked thing, at 2400 fps +, it is going to get to its target, regardless of what it has to pass through, and go through the target as well............

    This is THE TREE............

    [​IMG]
     
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  29. cold1

    cold1 Member Supporting Member

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    :eek: That's purdy!
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  30. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Thanks for the responses. As for shooting through trees, it is possible to kinda see through a tree with an optic, depends upon the focal length, objective size, where it’s focused and how big the obstruction is. If you do it with a camera you’ll see the degraded image and know that there is something there, with hunting I doubt you’d notice a small obstruction.
     
  31. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Thanks Jim, now I know I am not quite as crazy as I thought I might be......... LOL........ Kinda like X-Ray Vision I reckon........ Like I thought! HEH...........

    As for shooting irons at 100 yards, I envy those that can, they are blessed no doubt. I cannot. Even when my eyes were not as bad as they are now, hours of being in bright sun took their toll on my eyesight, and what I could see in the field. After being out until 11 am to 1 pm some days, my vision would start to fatigue. You are constantly on the lookout. I remember seeing animals at 100 or so yards, but really could not tell what it was! Some of these animals are not small, I am talking Kudu and things like that. I could see it, but could not tell much about it. It would have been near impossible for me to take a shot and expect to hit vitals at that point with irons.

    Now, with that said, I am off to get ready to go to the Retina Doc and get a needle poked in the right eye. I can pretty much promise you I won't be able to see CRAP the rest of the day.............

    No shooting for me this afternoon at all, regardless of Sight System...........
     
  32. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Some years ago I had lasix surgery. Not that I wanted it, but because my wife did and she was afraid of going blind. I’ll never be able to explain, but making me do it first somehow relieved her anxiety. It is only pure dumb luck that the vision in my right eye is still worth a crap because my left eye is nearly worthless (I’m 55). I can’t shoot irons well, but I haven’t given up trying when shooting lever guns for fun which is about all I do.

    BTW, next time your at the range put a finger a foot in front of your scope and see what you see.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  33. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    I still shoot some irons when sighting new rifles in. But that is here on the range of course, and at 25 yards. All my big bores, and all standard B&Ms come with that large white flip up and down NECG Bead, its standard, and covers a large area at 25. Very specific rifles and this bead is nice and big, and fast for close range work. I do fair with it. Some days I can keep 3 in a hole. Other days it wanders around a little. I have more days it wanders, than 3 in a hole. LOL..........

    Oh, and yes, I know the scope trick. Works well on higher powers, at 4X the finger disappears. But at 1X and 2X I can still see the finger..... I had forgot about that however. Good Point.

    I am 60 now. And just now being able to almost see after the injection earlier. It normally takes 3-4 hours to get back to somewhat normal.
     
  34. JimP42

    JimP42 Mostly harmless Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Not really a subtle sort of tree.

    And an even less subtle bullet.

    Your range has a different definition of cover vs concealment than mine :)

    Do you ever shoot steel with those hammers? 5/8 AR500 is good for 338 Lapua and 3/4 for 50 BMG (but not at your 25 yard typical ranges of course). Just wondering what those solids do on AR500.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  35. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    @Chdamn says.....B&Ms turn cover into concealment.
     
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  36. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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  37. Chdamn

    Chdamn Dungeon Master Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Because screw you, screw my shoulder, screw the car you’re hiding behind and screw the three guys in the stack behind you. lol.
     
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  38. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    The bullets are made from Brass, I know, but forget the exact formula.... I doubt they would hold up good on STEEL...... Just not made for that sort of thing. I am sure they would give it a pounding..............

    One day, we can go "Deep Diving" with these Solids in a serious discussion concerning Solid Penetration. Our goal with these bullets is to drive deep and straight in animal tissue. We conducted serious test work here over a period of about 2 years or more. We tested everything made, from 100 years ago to present time, and we tested things that do not exist. The Solids you see are now called Safari Solids from Cutting Edge Bullets. They were tweaked and designed nearly from scratch here. The original name of the bullet was #13 BBW. The #13 comes from the 13 degree angle off the nose/meplat. The BBW is from "Bastard Bullet Works".... LOL........ I Have a test buddy, Sam Rose in Harrels NC. Sam and I worked hard on these bullets, because we needed them and wanted the very best solid we could get, and there was very little out there worth a damn. Sam has a lathe or two, and was turning out more bullets each week than I could get tested. It would be 3-5 samples of various things we tried, and then some wild things as well. I accused him one day of turning out bullets with a Bastard File. Then named him and his bullets, Bastard Bullet Works. We all had a great laugh out of that. We continued to see failure after failure in the field with most all factory made solids, and that is because no one put true effort into Solid design or study. A Round Nose solid is about the worst POS ever put off on serious hunters. About the only thing worse than a Round Nose Solid, is a spitzer solid. Totally useless POS, at least when it comes to driving straight and diving deep in aqueous material, animal tissue included.

    We knew that Flat Nose Solids drove deeper and straighter than other designs. What we didn't know was just how much Meplat was required to keep it stable during "Terminal Penetration" and the Nose Profile which makes a big difference as well. In the end, VERY LONG STORY, made very short. We tested from 10 degree angle up to 20 degree angle and found good results with 12-15 degrees. Above 15 degrees things got squirrelly. We did the same with the size of the meplat, from round nose and then 50% of caliber up to 80% of caliber. We found that 65% of caliber stabilized itself during terminals. Dead straight at everything above 65% of caliber, however from 70% to 80% depth of penetration decreased, while destruction of tissue increased. Also we had to consider feed/function in a Winchester M70, other bolt trash was not considered. We settled on 67% meplat on the Cutting Edge Bullets, and John with North Fork went with 68%...... Both feed/function flawlessly in Winchester M70 Control feed guns. There are other factors that influence Solid Penetration, but Meplat Size and Nose Profile are #1 and #2.

    As an example below the penetration listed at 71-72 inches is in Wet Print Material we use here to test with. The mix used is comprised of 35% Magazine/catalog material, and is 35% tougher on bullets than simple news print. 72 inches of penetration in this aqueous material is equal to 10 feet of penetration in animal tissue as a "rule of thumb". Of course, animal tissue has bone and air pockets and is not consistent. If you contact heavy bone depth will be less, if not, it will be more.......... But what you can count on is this bullet driving straighter and drive deeper than any other bullet ever to go to the field.

    [​IMG]

    This is not a bullet thread, so we won't "Dive in any Deeper"................ But wanted to touch on this aspect, since the tree and buffalo were put down by one of these........ Or a 450 gr Version............... This 525 gr .500 caliber solid is capable of entering the chest of an elephant, and exiting the rear of the elephant.
     
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  39. OldNascar

    OldNascar Well-Known Member

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    One aspect that effects sights is water drops on the various sighting devices. Anything from dew on leaves to a full blown shower can cause a problems when a good sight picture is neeeded. I prefer a receiver/ghost ring rear sight and a white front when hunting.

    One bad experience I had while hunting was using optics to get another half hour or so of twilight time. As the darkness grew deeper the image becomes moreso a overview of a moving mass covering the actual image to the point that a animal appeared to be on the near side of a thicket was actually well covered on the other side by at least twenty feet. Shots made and no hits, no more playing with the twilight for me.
     
  40. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member Life Member

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    Dale..... Fortunately I have never had an issue with water/optics. Most of the hunting I have done is dry, not a lot of rain in Africa and Australia during hunting season, in fact, I don't ever recall getting a rain shower. Alaska, different story, that is every single day some sort of storm, rain, wind, dust, sand, snow, ice and anything else you can think of. Never had or recall an issue with optics however?...........

    Dark! HEH.... Done a lot of that sort of work, and it can really get interesting. But of course, in Africa, we just turn the light on so we can see! LOL..........Its a hoot hunting elephant at night! Whole different story. In Zimbabwe in 2007 I believe, we hunted crop raiding elephants at night. Didn't even go to the field until it was Zero Dark Thirty. Also back in the days all leopard and lion hunting was overnight affairs in the field.
     
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