Optics on a Semi-auto Pistol Question

JBoyette

JBoyette

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Here's my question.

Why are all optics behind the ejection port and not in front of it?

We can adjust holster's and all that so why not infront of the ejection port?

I think it could help with muzzle flip with the extra weight.

What do you think ?
 
That would be interesting to try for sure. I'm actually sending my P320c off Monday to Doug presson for an RMR cut in the traditional behind ejection port .
 
Never thought about it. I suppose most are mounted behind the port just to take advantage of the existing cut for the rear sight.

That's actually a pretty good idea, John.
 
hlpressley said:
Better watch that Doug guy! ;)

Good friend of mine for many years. He does excellent work!
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Can't wait to get it done and back so I can shoot it and start carrying it! Had to wait on the suppressor height sights to come in. Not sure what the turn around time is, hope its not too long! lol
 
Getting ready to build a holster for a P320c with the sight. It would not fit my standard leather holsters. I'm still going to have to get the gun to make the holster. He's a member at the club so that's not a problem.

In front of the port? Outside of competition speed holsters, forget about it. The options would be even more limited than now.

Not saying it wouldn't shoot well. But imagine carrying a gun where the optic is below the belt line IWB. Not going to work. OWB maybe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
chiefjason said:
Getting ready to build a holster for a P320c with the sight. It would not fit my standard leather holsters. I'm still going to have to get the gun to make the holster. He's a member at the club so that's not a problem.

In front of the port? Outside of competition speed holsters, forget about it. The options would be even more limited than now.

Not saying it wouldn't shoot well. But imagine carrying a gun where the optic is below the belt line IWB. Not going to work. OWB maybe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Are people actually trying to carry these things IWB?
 
NoNameHaveI said:
Are people actually trying to carry these things IWB?
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They carry lights and lasers IWB, why not? The one I am making is OWB. Just saying that putting the sight forward of the port will make it impossible to carry IWB instead of difficult.
 
chiefjason said:
They carry lights and lasers IWB, why not? The one I am making is OWB. Just saying that putting the sight forward of the port will make it impossible to carry IWB instead of difficult.
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Fair enough, the lights and lasers ironically to your point also add bulk below the waistline. I personally find it easier to hide bulk below the belt vs above. I can imagine just the idea of trying to work the mechanics for a forward mounted optic is a thing of nightmares to a holster maker though.
 
6-second-mount-rmr-build_1.jpg
I find this from ALG.

Thinking about it, the optic does not move like a slide mounted optic.

I have found some companies that make holsters for this setup
 
JBoyette said:
View attachment 12920
I find this from ALG.

Thinking about it, the optic does not move like a slide mounted optic.

I have found some companies that make holsters for this setup
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Always thought that was the precursor to the milled slide mounted optic, saw those around long before people started cutting up thier slides. Does the optic being significantly higher than the slide have an adverse effect vs the alternative?
 
Not enough meat on the slide to correctly mount the rmr on a glock in front of the ejection port.

Sure you can cut your pocket but you won't have much left for the threaded screws, unless you mount it directly on the top and don't recess much, but then you can't use any irons.
 
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I think the window is bigger the further you mount it back, making finding the dot on the draw easier.
A lot of people like it as far back as possible.
 
NoNameHaveI said:
Fair enough, the lights and lasers ironically to your point also add bulk below the waistline. I personally find it easier to hide bulk below the belt vs above. I can imagine just the idea of trying to work the mechanics for a forward mounted optic is a thing of nightmares to a holster maker though.
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They add tons of bulk, but they are contained in the holster. Most of the optic holsters do not contain the optic, at least for now. So the optic outside the holster and below the belt line would be a mess. And containing the optic in the holster shell would add a ton of bulk to the holster. Not just at the optic, but the sight channel on top to allow it to be drawn. Then you have to figure out how to retain the gun with all that space and less friction on the gun. Try shoving that ALG mess above and a holster in your pants, lol. You'd have to be HUGE to pull that one off.

I'm sure it's fun at the range though.
 
John Wick said:
I don't understand the need or want for any type of optic for a short distance handgun.
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Increasing the accuracy and speed at greater distance. If you only have a handgun and you end up in the wrong place against a rifle every edge you can get may help.
 
John Wick said:
I don't understand the need or want for any type of optic for a short distance handgun.
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Speed and accuracy. Ease of use. Put the dot on the target, no centering post in notch and aligning the top edges.

Look at USPSA Open (maybe not the best example) and high level CO, it's not just extended range that the advantage starts becoming evident.

The optics are getting tougher and creeping in because they offer an advantage. Remember red dots were once rare, fragile, gun nerd gimmicks on carbines.


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Beef15 said:
Speed and accuracy. Ease of use. Put the dot on the target, no centering post in notch and aligning the top edges.

Look at USPSA Open (maybe not the best example) and high level CO, it's not just 8extended range that the advantage starts becoming evident.

The optics are getting tougher and creeping in because they offer an advantage. Remember red dots were once rare, fragile, gun nerd gimmicks on carbines.


Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
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For competitions, I get it. EDC, I don't get it. Get a pair of front and rear sights and practice, practice, practice, and practice.
 
John Wick said:
For competitions, I get it. EDC, I don't get it. Get a pair of front and rear sights and practice, practice, practice, and practice.
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I think the key for me is this.

In slow aimed fire I am good at 70yds with a Red Dot I am good to 120yds

A bad shooter that's good at 25yds is now good at 70yds.

That's huge just by adding 1 item
 
John Wick said:
For competitions, I get it. EDC, I don't get it. Get a pair of front and rear sights and practice, practice, practice, and practice.
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They are not magic bullet homing devices, negating the need for practice. Single sight plane, no re-focus from sights to target. EDC? Absolutely! If it gets you faster better hits, why not. Think multiple targets, nighttime setting. Think higher precision and range than you might be accustomed to for a handgun. Lots of guys use them on AR's because if the same advantages.
Admittedly, I prefer streamline for and EDC gun, but if it were more affordable...
 
Personally, I'd try to pick up an MOS or something with the milled area at slide rear.

I'd want to keep dot as close to bore as possible.
 
2 seconds or less is what you have for self defense. Almost impossible to find a red dot on a pistol in stressful situations plus most people use the front sight to find the dot image. Red dot would have to be 12 MOA for me. I've tried it. It works at the range with lots of time. Quick acquisition is almost impossible for me plus those RMRs are pitiful if you have a stigmatism.
 
BlackGun said:
2 seconds or less is what you have for self defense. Almost impossible to find a red dot on a pistol in stressful situations plus most people use the front sight to find the dot image. Red dot would have to be 12 MOA for me. I've tried it. It works at the range with lots of time. Quick acquisition is almost impossible for me plus those RMRs are pitiful if you have a stigmatism.
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If we are going to use numbers like time for self defense situations, we should use all of numbers you think?

A self defense attack happens typically in less then 7 yards. A semi trained shooter can point shoot (no sights "iron or electric") out to 15 yds will no sight picture in the allotted time.

This is why I am having a discussion on the longer range use of a electric sight.

John
 
Just to add my 2¢. I have a rock island 1911 in 9mm that my dad shoots all the time. It has a rail on the top and a Burris FF iii mounted in front of the ejector port because the rail has finger grooves that interfere with the mounting of the sight to the rear like normal.

Imo it does help with control of the pistol having the weight forward of the ejector port. He doesn't carry this gun so it has never bothered him. Don't get within 80ft of him with it either, you won't stand for long :)
 
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I could understand this for a TEOTWAWKI scenario or military applications where everywhere you go is almost certain combat, but for everyday carry? I just can't see it being beneficial over KISS.
 
Tying this into John's other thread about get home scenarios, this is where a device like this will shine. Get it? Shine?:D
Anyway, service sized pistol, 33rd magazines, optics, maybe even an attachable stock configuraton...
Concealability, adequate firepower and range for this scenario, which I consider to be primarily defensive/get away from me and or large numbers like a mob. You could always still have some sort of long gun collapsed or in parts stowed in a bag, but this gun allows for immediate action and covertness. I came to this model a few years ago after seriously considering various scenarios.
 
JBoyette said:
Check this out my peeps:

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Annnnnd, like I've been saying. OWB, optic exposed. That's not going IWB, lol. What I didn't say was I'd bet anything you found would be kydex or more likely rotomolded. That one is rotomolded. Probably CC's as well as a SERPA.

As a maker I cringe when the retention for a holster is based on how well a customer mounts some widget to their gun. In other words, the retention is on the widget and not the gun. Like the holsters that just retain the light, and fit any gun. It's a recipe for someone to end up in court because some idiot didn't mount the widget right.

With the possible positives, you have to weigh the negatives. The positives are target acquisition. The negatives are, will you legitimately carry that long term in that holster? We all know that a gun you don't carry is useless.
 
chiefjason said:
Annnnnd, like I've been saying. OWB, optic exposed. That's not going IWB, lol. What I didn't say was I'd bet anything you found would be kydex or more likely rotomolded. That one is rotomolded. Probably CC's as well as a SERPA.

As a maker I cringe when the retention for a holster is based on how well a customer mounts some widget to their gun. In other words, the retention is on the widget and not the gun. Like the holsters that just retain the light, and fit any gun. It's a recipe for someone to end up in court because some idiot didn't mount the widget right.

With the possible positives, you have to weigh the negatives. The positives are target acquisition. The negatives are, will you legitimately carry that long term in that holster? We all know that a gun you don't carry is useless.
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Yeah it's a idea...

The other issue to the SHTF situation is a EMP. A EMP will take out most red dot sights. The ones it will not take out are useless under deployed while light.....

I see a optic on a pistol as a go to gun not a EDC in a SHTF use due to it's bulk. But what people call a BUG is my EDC...

So it's a layered progress
 
JBoyette said:
Yeah it's a idea...

The other issue to the SHTF situation is a EMP. A EMP will take out most red dot sights. The ones it will not take out are useless under deployed while light.....

I see a optic on a pistol as a go to gun not a EDC in a SHTF use due to it's bulk. But what people call a BUG is my EDC...

So it's a layered progress
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In that sense, CC and even comfort of carry go out the window. You are doing whatever you have to do. Every now and then I'll get a request for something that does not make much sense to me, but does to them.

In my every day thinking holsters work like this; safety, security, comfort, concealment. I approach these conversations from a very different point of view than most. That makes me a holster nerd. lol
 
chiefjason said:
In that sense, CC and even comfort of carry go out the window. You are doing whatever you have to do. Every now and then I'll get a request for something that does not make much sense to me, but does to them.

In my every day thinking holsters work like this; safety, security, comfort, concealment. I approach these conversations from a very different point of view than most. That makes me a holster nerd. lol
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Agree,

Same with me as a trainer, different points of view make CFF a great place
 
And it cures the ploblem of the brass hitting the optic glass.

Tom
 
NoNameHaveI said:
Are people actually trying to carry these things IWB?
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Yep, I carry a Glock 19 with Triji RMR rm06 everyday, aiwb. have been for year's now. I'm 43, the eye's are not what they use to be, and against what some have said, I also have a astigmatism. I dial the dot down a little to take the starburst effect out, and I'm golden. I have practiced plenty, for many a years with iron sights, and I have also practiced for years now with the RMR, and I can tell you, I can find the dot damn fast after the draw. Again, it was practice, practice, practice. It take's time to good and fast with these things, but it is very cool hitting steel out to 100+ yards with a pistol, and not having to take forever to do it. To each their own, but I like it and will continue to do it. You also never know when you might be in a situation to where you need to take a longer, precision shot, so why not have every advantage you can get. Just my 2 cents.
 
BlackGun said:
2 seconds or less is what you have for self defense. Almost impossible to find a red dot on a pistol in stressful situations plus most people use the front sight to find the dot image. Red dot would have to be 12 MOA for me. I've tried it. It works at the range with lots of time. Quick acquisition is almost impossible for me plus those RMRs are pitiful if you have a stigmatism.
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I'd have to disagree somewhat. Because I have seen many many many USPSA open class shooters (all have red dots) get on the first target under 1 second from the holster over and over, while on the clock in a somewhat stressful situation.

So, with some training, it's faster picking up a red dot than a set of sights. Or at the very least, just as fast. Just my opinion.
 
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