PHA Vintage 2 Gun Match - 10/14, PHA Range, Linwood, NC

beseventeen

beseventeen

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Hey all, just found this forum! We will be running a Vintage-only two gun match at the Piedmont Handgunners Association Range in Linwood, NC - October 14th. This will be a unique opportunity to match up 1945 & older rifles against each other...come do it old school!!

More info on the website here, https://www.vintage2gun.com/

If you like the Facebook page also that will keep you in the loop about any updates - https://www.facebook.com/vintage2gun/

Thanks for reading and let myself or 2alpha-down0 know if you have any questions!!
 
Cool match idea and I'd like to try and attend.
I have a question - These rules don't make sense:
Design must have been adopted and fielded by a military or police force, in or prior to 1945
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and
Example: M1 Carbine, SKS..
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Catfish said:
Cool match idea and I'd like to try and attend.
I have a question - These rules don't make sense:

and
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Very very late in '45 they were used by the red army in small amounts. I don't think of SKS when I think of WWII either but I had someone asking if they could bring one, I said if you can show me online where they were fielded before/in 45 you can bring it, and he did, so... lol.
 
vhaGtpb.jpg
 
Interesting - I'll have to go digging. Looks like a fun match!
 
beseventeen said:
Very very late in '45 they were used by the red army in small amounts. I don't think of SKS when I think of WWII either but I had someone asking if they could bring one, I said if you can show me online where they were fielded before/in 45 you can bring it, and he did, so... lol.
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Do you have a link to that?

I remember a big discussion on this years back and the data showed that yes a SKS "type" prototype was fielded for testing purposes. But it was much different than the rifle we know as an "SKS" that was adopted in 1949. The rifles used in late WW2 were also in 7.62x41 not x39.

762x41-1.png

Here is the early SKS prototype..
sksproto.jpg

On a similar note..FN49 prototypes were tested and approved..but the war was winding down and their production was cancelled.

All that being said I understand if its the only rifle a guy has and I encourage people to get out and shoot. But IMHO the SKS we all know..is not the rifle that saw limited combat trials in late WW2. If it was we would have seen SKSs dated earlier than 1949 and even recovered some in Korea 50-52....that didn't happen.

You are the match director so no issues with what you say...just pointing out the history on the SKS as I know it..always willing to learn if I've missed something...
 
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Jeremy2171 said:
Do you have a link to that?

I remember a big discussion on this years back and the data showed that yes a SKS "type" prototype was fielded for testing purposes. But it was much different than the rifle we know as an "SKS" that was adopted in 1949. The rifles used in late WW2 were also in 7.62x41 not x39.

762x41-1.png

Here is the early SKS prototype..
View attachment 22620

On a similar note..FN49 prototypes were tested and approved..but the war was winding down and their production was cancelled.

All that being said I understand if its the only rifle a guy has and I encourage people to get out and shoot. But IMHO the SKS we all know..is not the rifle that saw limited combat trials in late WW2. If it was we would have seen SKSs dated earlier than 1949 and even recovered some in Korea 50-52....that didn't happen.

You are the match director so no issues with what you say...just pointing out the history on the SKS as I know it..always willing to learn if I've missed something...
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I'm not the shooter that asked about the SKS, but I did do the background on the SKS call.

There are reports of early-dated SKS rifles in Russian arms museums, but I haven't seen pictures. However, the reports of early guns in combat in late 44-early 45 are generally not refuted. The guns were generally liked, but needed some refinement that wasn't completed until after the war.

I just searched again in case I missed something, and found this translated book, "The History of the Russian Machine Gun" by S. B. Monetchikov.

See Chapter 15: https://translate.google.com/transl...&sl=ru&u=http://coollib.com/b/195891/read#t18
pic_244.jpg


7.62-mm self-loading carbine Simonov SKS with the needle-shaped bayonet thrown back. sample of 1944
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No mention of case length, or x41 ballistics in general, but I imagine the M43 7.62x39 is ballisically similar to it's x41 predecessor regardless.

After everything I've seen and read, it was my conclusion that the SKS adopted and used in a limited capacity during WWII was similar enough in form, layout, and capability to post-war examples that it sufficiently met our "adopted and fielded" criteria.

It's no doubt a borderline gun, though.

EDIT: Did more digging on 7.62x41, found this:
16264414.jpg


I believe the left column is 7.62x54r, the right is 7.62 Tokarev, and the middle column is M43 7.62x41. If so, it's a 8g (123gr) bullet at 740m/s (2427fps)
 
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Good stuff!! Here is what I find relevant..

"In the same year, 1944, a fairly large batch of self-loading carbines by Simonov was sent for military tests in part of the 1st Byelorussian Front and for the courses "Shot", where he received a positive assessment: the simplicity of its arrangement, ease, and ease of handling him in a combat situation.

Tests in a real combat situation revealed certain shortcomings of new weapons, including insufficiently high reliability of the functioning of its automation in complicated conditions. Its design required refinement. Unfortunately, the Soviet warriors did not receive this powerful weapon at the final stage of the war. Complete refinement and debugging of all the components of the carbine was completed only after the end of the Great Patriotic War. And the Soviet Army, he was only adopted in 1949 under the name "7.62mm SKS system (SCS)."

and

"Serial production of carbines Simonov was mastered in 1949 Tula arms factory, and in 1952 - Izhevsk mechanical and lasted until 1956"

So "yes" some prototypes were issued...how many?? 50--100--1000? And the reports indicated they needed to make some changes which weren't complete until 1949.

in my OCD mind...the test run of a small number of rifles doesn't equate to "issued/fielded"

For the longest time the SKS has been considered to NOT have been a WW2 rifle...I contend thats still the case... JMHO
 
So would sks be in the carbine or self loading rifle class? I'd consider it a carbine since x39 isn't a full powered rifle cartridge.
 
So, what's everyone shooting? I can only imagine the gun porn at this event is gonna be as interesting as the actual shooting events.
 
Trying to decide if I have the gear for this... is the T53 clone of an M44 acceptable?
 
Yes, a T53 would be good to go for Service Rifle.

If you want/need modern LBE, Strike Hard Gear makes a MOLLE-compatible stripper clip pouch for Mosins/Enfields/Mausers.


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jcornSS said:
So, what's everyone shooting? I can only imagine the gun porn at this event is gonna be as interesting as the actual shooting events.
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BAR? G41? G43? still trying to decide...

I have plenty of USMC WW2 gear so I may even dress up and got hat route...don't have much German stuff however...
 
I vote G41 but that's just me lol. I'll prolly bring a Lithgow no1mk3, provided I get it back together and get some rounds through it.
 
jcornSS said:
I vote G41 but that's just me lol. I'll prolly bring a Lithgow no1mk3, provided I get it back together and get some rounds through it.
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Never been to a match at pha... is it easy to pick up your brass or is it faced paced and there isn't any time?

Really want to pickup my 8mm brass....
 
Jeremy2171 said:
Never been to a match at pha... is it easy to pick up your brass or is it faced paced and there isn't any time?

Really want to pickup my 8mm brass....
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We'll be moving pretty quick. Shoot, reset stage, then next shooter on the line. For this match, once you're done shooting a stage, you're free to move to another bay and join the line to shoot that one; you're not tied to a single squad. You can grab some of your brass as long as you're not holding things up, but frankly I wouldn't count on recovering all of it. I'm shooting Wolf .303 for most of the match for that reason.

Is your BAR a semi-auto clone? Would be awesome to have a transferable one out there, but range rules say no full-auto on property.
 
2alpha-down0 said:
We'll be moving pretty quick. Shoot, reset stage, then next shooter on the line. For this match, once you're done shooting a stage, you're free to move to another bay and join the line to shoot that one; you're not tied to a single squad. You can grab some of your brass as long as you're not holding things up, but frankly I wouldn't count on recovering all of it. I'm shooting Wolf .303 for most of the match for that reason.

Is your BAR a semi-auto clone? Would be awesome to have a transferable one out there, but range rules say no full-auto on property.
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It's a semi...

You can't even have a (legal registered) full auto out there even if you use it only on semi?
 
Garand, 1911 + a can of bandoliers full of Greek ball will serve me well for this match. I registered on PractiScore earlier in the week.
 
Jeremy2171 said:
Never been to a match at pha... is it easy to pick up your brass or is it faced paced and there isn't any time?

Really want to pickup my 8mm brass....
Click to expand...

I'm gonna guess this is gonna be kind of fast paced. That brass may be tough to reclaim.
 
I'll probably shoot reloads with near-end-of-life brass so the loss doesn't hurt so badly, lol.
 
jcornSS said:
I'll probably shoot reloads with near-end-of-life brass so the loss doesn't hurt so badly, lol.
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Yeah...I know that feeling...lol

I just got a P-14 rebarreled by Chip with a criterion... shot 3 rounds of Greek HXP 76 into 1" AND the chamber is nice and tight the brass hardly bulged at all... should be able to shoot boatails out of this since the throat is new and had no cordite fired in it...
 
2alpha-down0 said:
We'll be moving pretty quick. Shoot, reset stage, then next shooter on the line. For this match, once you're done shooting a stage, you're free to move to another bay and join the line to shoot that one; you're not tied to a single squad. You can grab some of your brass as long as you're not holding things up, but frankly I wouldn't count on recovering all of it. I'm shooting Wolf .303 for most of the match for that reason.

Is your BAR a semi-auto clone? Would be awesome to have a transferable one out there, but range rules say no full-auto on property.
Click to expand...
Have you fired any wolf 303 yet? I read that the bullets are undersize (.308ish) causing crap accuracy and bullets keyholing.
 
Jeremy2171 said:
Yeah...I know that feeling...lol

I just got a P-14 rebarreled by Chip with a criterion... shot 3 rounds of Greek HXP 76 into 1" AND the chamber is nice and tight the brass hardly bulged at all... should be able to shoot boatails out of this since the throat is new and had no cordite fired in it...
Click to expand...

Mmm, sounds nice lol. This Lithgow is a jjco rifle. It doesn't have a matching number on it but the headspace is tight and I'm sure it was unfired when I got it.

I ensured the copper recoil plates were in place, but it didn't take long for the coachwood in the draws area to go to pieces anyway. Long story short, I've got it apart repairing the resulting chaos. Forend split, collapsed draws, busted up in the king screw area. I've about got it ready for test firing though.
 
jcornSS said:
Have you fired any wolf 303 yet? I read that the bullets are undersize (.308ish) causing crap accuracy and bullets keyholing.
Click to expand...

I've shot about 100 rounds. No keyholing in my No4. The one group I shot was a bit north of 5". Fine for most of this match, but I'll probably switch to reloads for the 200 yard stage.

It actually feeds more reliably than Prvi brass in that rifle, too.


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2alpha-down0 said:
I've shot about 100 rounds. No keyholing in my No4. The one group I shot was a bit north of 5". Fine for most of this match, but I'll probably switch to reloads for the 200 yard stage.

It actually feeds more reliably than Prvi brass in that rifle, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I may pick up some too try. I had high hopes for it since milsurp is gone. I'm dangerously low on hxp....... Very dangerously low.
 
jcornSS said:
I may pick up some too try. I had high hopes for it since milsurp is gone. I'm dangerously low on hxp....... Very dangerously low.
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The main issue with wolf .303 is the boat tail... shooting this in rifles that have seen lots of milsurp cordite ammo have roached out throats and only flat base bullets shoot well at that point.

And yes when the bedding points go ..it goes bad.
I was lucky enough to get a new stock set a long time ago. I put it on my ishy 2A as the bedding points had the consistency of grits... completely oil soaked..
 
I've fixed a few LE's now. I wanted to keep this one in coachwood since it's a lithgow. Coachwood is........ Not ideal lol. I had to get kind of creative to reinforce the recoil area to (hopefully) prevent this from happening again.
 
Jeremy2171 said:
100 and 200yd plates right?
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Ideally, yes. We're still waiting for the OK to shoot steel at 100 on that range. There's an old board ruling we need an exception to.

Worst case: All targets on Stage 5 will be at 200 yards. As in most of our monthly 2-gun matches, Stage 1 will have steel at 50-60 yards.

Once we get the final word from the board I'll put the stage PDFs on Practiscore.
 
jcornSS said:
So, what's everyone shooting? I can only imagine the gun porn at this event is gonna be as interesting as the actual shooting events.
Click to expand...

YES that was honestly the whole point of putting this together. I wanted it to be a match first, but secondly a chance for everyone to get together and drool over the ol' milsurps.

I still don't know what I'm shooting. Likely my garand unless my buddy wants to use it, in which case I'll probably shoot my m1 carbine. My other dear friend is borrowing my 1903. He's dressing up in period costume from the Banana wars :)

I'll be dressing up as a WAVE. My great aunt was one so it has some historical meaning to me too.
 
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All stages have a par/max allowed time of 180 seconds.


Stage 1 - Hill 223
- Simulating Alvin York's famous battle in 1918.
- Round count: 11 rifle, 6 pistol

Stage 2 - Operation Mercury
- Jump with the Fallschirmjager on Crete in 1941. All targets to be engaged strong-hand only. Optional grenade target (grenades provided).
- Round count: 20 pistol

Stage 3 - Banzai!!!
- Fight back the banzai charge that ended the fight for Attu Island in 1943. Involves the use of a fixed bayonet or fighting knife (knife provided).
- Round count: 18 rifle, 4 pistol

Stage 4 - Pegasus
- Land with the British 6th Airborne, the first boots to hit Normandy on D-Day.
- Round count: 19 rifle

Stage 5 - No Pressure
- 5 hits standing, 5 hits kneeling, 5 hits prone. All at 200 yards. No pressure...
- Optional bonus target worth 15 seconds off stage time.
- Round count: 15 rifle
 

Attachments

  • Hill 223 (1).pdf
    4.6 MB · Views: 18
  • Operation Mercury (2).pdf
    4.7 MB · Views: 15
  • Banzai!!! (3).pdf
    3.8 MB · Views: 13
  • Pegasus (4).pdf
    5.1 MB · Views: 12
  • No Pressure (5) (200yd) - Copy.pdf
    2.7 MB · Views: 15
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