Physical disabilities and match scoring

[notso556]

So last week I had an ICD implanted in my chest. For those who are not familiar, this is a device about the size of an oblong pocket watch that is supposed to deliver an electrical zap if the heart gets out of its normal rhythm and begins beating too fast. I've heard it can also jump start 4 cylinder vehicles, too, but my doctor won't confirm that.

It is not a breast implant as a couple of my friends thought. It is placed in the upper left chest - right next to that shoulder pocket where our rifle range PMI's told us to put the toe of the buttstock all those many years ago. Can you see where this is going yet?

As my wife and I are discussing the list of "do's and don'ts" and "can's and can'ts" that the medics gave us I mentioned there was one more thing -- I surely wouldn't be shooting a long gun from my left shoulder any time soon and, maybe, not ever again. I haven't attempted it but from the looks of it there will be no way to get a stock into that pocket enough to get a good cheek weld. Might be able to shoot something with a light recoil from further out on the ball of the shoulder with a red dot but iron sights?? ........ no freaking way.

So she asked how often this happened. I replied that I might shoot 6 or 8 matches a year involving long guns and a course designer might require "weak side" long gun shooting at maybe 1 of these so - maybe once a year. Possibly twice.

And, lo, just a couple days later the fine folks at PHA posted this course of fire.

Now, this surgery is way too fresh for me to shoot this match - hell, I'm not supposed to be driving for another 10 days - so this is all theoretical. Just to start a discussion.

The wife then asked what would happen if someone couldn't physically do part of the course of fire at a match. And I said that USPSA had a provision for that in their rules but I really didn't know what other clubs and other disciplines did about something like this.

I know @2alpha-down0 posted PHA 2 gun rules here awhile ago and I thought I book marked them but I guess not and can't find them now. So I don't know if a physical disability situation was addressed or not.

If it was not --- what say y'all? How should something like this be handled?

 

[Shady Grady]

...

 

[Catfish]

I've seen those things... they look like a thin wallet shaped implant a few inches square, right?

Could you not wear a pad over that area to absorb/disperse the recoil?

 

[TSConver]

Most places will just give you a procedural and let you keep going.

 

[snowdogs]

notso556: You might investigate a P.A.S.T. recoil rig. They will take the sting out of a 45-90 Sharps pretty well. A good match director should be willing to work with a willing, though slightly inhibited competitor. Take care....

 

[dave33]

Most places will just give you a procedural and let you keep going.

Agreed. At my gun club and another local club I shoot a lot of matches at the worst you would get would be a procedural, if the accommodation you need doesn't give you a real advantage I wouldn't even do that if you were on a squad I was SO on.

 

[2alpha-down0]

Our rules are hosted here for your reference: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-fb0pNztPL-Yy1JZlprdkNZQ1E/view

We don't have a specific provision for disabilities. Medical issues, and their impact on a CoF, are so varied that it's impossible to have one solution in a rule set that addresses everything. USPSA seems to acknowledge this, leaving it to RM discretion (5.2.9 and 8.6.3)

In this case, as others have said, the most appropriate solution is a single procedural (+10 sec), and allow you to shoot Position A from the right shoulder. This negates your strong-side advantage, without hammering you for a violation that isn't negligent or intentional.

 

[RecoilJunkie]

In USPSA you would just fire from the right shoulder and no penalties would be assessed. Assessing a penalty for a medical issue is pretty shitty upon the MD and staff. From the look of the stage 'intent' it looks as if they are intending you to use cover. Use cover to your ability and use your right shoulder... you're still handicapped if you try to use the barrier as cover.

 

[TSConver]

In USPSA you would just fire from the right shoulder and no penalties would be assessed. Assessing a penalty for a medical issue is pretty shitty upon the MD and staff. From the look of the stage 'intent' it looks as if they are intending you to use cover. Use cover to your ability and use your right shoulder... you're still handicapped if you try to use the barrier as cover.

Has nothing to do about being shitty. It insures that the course of fire is fair for all. As said if the disability gives an advantage on the COF then a procedural is warranted, if the disability does not give an advantage then no procedural would be given.

 

[notso556]

First,

That sounds like a very serious obstacle you are overcoming. I'm glad you are doing well and hope for a quick recovery from your surgery.

Second,

The matches at PHA are fun matches. If I were disabled but still able to participate I would do what my body was able to, skip/improvise parts I couldn't, and be thrilled with still being able to do one of the few things that gives me real pleasure.

First, thanks for the kind words. Second, I have shot PHA matches and I agree with you. My competitive days are behind me, I just go for the fun of it. And will keep doing it for as long as I can.

But USPSA has their disability policy that works for their scoring system and I suppose other disciplines should have one of their own. So I'm really wondering if the PHA guys (and other "outlaw" matches) have already considered this and, if not, what do people think is a proper policy?

That having been said, a couple of you guys are pretty generous - LOL. Back when I was really competitive I would have gladly taken 1 procedural penalty in exchange for not having to shoot weak hand / weak side. Where were y'all back then????????

I've seen those things... they look like a thin wallet shaped implant a few inches square, right?

Could you not wear a pad over that area to absorb/disperse the recoil?

Yeah - this is about 2.8"x1.6" and .55" thick. Weighs about 2-1/2 ounces. Surgery consists of slicing an opening and then just shoving it in under the skin, creating a pocket for it to stay in. Leaves a huge area of technicolor bruising. Really impressive. LOL. Then a lead or two (one in my case) is run down into the heart chambers.

As for your and others' suggestions as to padding I guess my answer has to be -- I dunno. I haven't even brought a gun up to my shoulder yet and haven't discussed shooting at all with the doctor - kinda don't want to open that box, ya know?

Their concerns are having that lead dislodged from the unit before scar tissue forms to hold it in place. So no raising the arm above shoulder level or lifting over 10 pounds for 6 or 8 weeks. No driving for 2 weeks - not sure what that is all about. Just standard doctor BS to put up with.

Long term, my concern would be breaking the damned thing and having to go back for a replacement. So, yeah, I'll pass on shooting off that shoulder and take the penalty - whatever it is. Score doesn't matter to me anyhow. I'm just curious as to what folks think a fair penalty should be.

 

[TSConver]

First, thanks for the kind words. Second, I have shot PHA matches and I agree with you. My competitive days are behind me, I just go for the fun of it. And will keep doing it for as long as I can.


Long term, my concern would be breaking the damned thing and having to go back for a replacement. So, yeah, I'll pass on shooting off that shoulder and take the penalty - whatever it is. Score doesn't matter to me anyhow. I'm just curious as to what folks think a fair penalty should be.

That is really the case, what is a fair penalty. SOmetimes shooting around a barricade is easier off hand if you have a small space to stand in and have to shoot close. In that case shooting strong hand might actually be slower for you and in that case would be no penalty. If it is not the case and you are gaining an advantage then it is about making it fair. If it is one or two rounds then the penalty should reflect that. If it is a plate rack or a bunch of cardboard then the penalty might need to be increased depending on how much faster the RO thinks you shot it because of the procedural. Really comes back tot he RO and being fair. I would talk to the RO prior to shooting and let him or her know what you intend to do versus suprising them. If they know they will have a chance to think about it versus thinking you are gaming it and then they might give you aprocedural for every trigger pull.

 

[notso556]

Our rules are hosted here for your reference: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-fb0pNztPL-Yy1JZlprdkNZQ1E/view

We don't have a specific provision for disabilities. Medical issues, and their impact on a CoF, are so varied that it's impossible to have one solution in a rule set that addresses everything. USPSA seems to acknowledge this, leaving it to RM discretion (5.2.9 and 8.6.3)

In this case, as others have said, the most appropriate solution is a single procedural (+10 sec), and allow you to shoot Position A from the right shoulder. This negates your strong-side advantage, without hammering you for a violation that isn't negligent or intentional.

First - thanks for the link. NOW I have it book marked.

Second - what you suggest for a penalty sounds fair.

An interesting aside -- when forced to shoot a rifle off the "weak" shoulder my experience (and that of others on the squad) has been the shooting is much slower because it is an unfamiliar act but the shooting is much more accurate because it is an unfamiliar act.

 

[RecoilJunkie]

Has nothing to do about being shitty. It insures that the course of fire is fair for all. As said if the disability gives an advantage on the COF then a procedural is warranted, if the disability does not give an advantage then no procedural would be given.

no, assessing a procedural for a physical disability is a shitty thing to do, period. "give him a penalty based on how the RO feels" GTFO man. The fair thing to do is let him shoot it within his abilities without causing injury to himself or others, fair?

 

[NKD]

Personally, if I were ROing, I would ask you to shoot it to your best ability and safely, and just give time and not access a procedural.

Unless you were beating me, then certainly a procedural, unless I could find something to DQ you for.

 

[Mike Overlay]

USPSA uses rule 10.2.10.1 and 10.2.10.2 in this situation

10.2.10 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement.

10.2.10.1 Exception – In a weak hand/strong hand stage, a competitor who has physical use of only one hand may use the same hand for both weak and strong without penalty.

10.2.10.2 If the request is approved by the Range Master, a minimum of one procedural penalty, up to a maximum penalty of 20% of the competitor’s points “as shot” (rounded up to the nearest whole number), will be deducted from the competitor’s score. For example, if 100 points are available in the course of fire and the competitor actually scores 90 points, the special penalty is a deduction of 18 points. The Range Master may waive any or all procedural penalties in 46 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition respect of a competitor who has a significant physical disability prior to the competitor making his attempt at the course of fire.

 

[notso556]

Personally, if I were ROing, I would ask you to shoot it to your best ability and safely, and just give time and not access a procedural.

Unless you were beating me, then certainly a procedural, unless I could find something to DQ you for.

Just what I would expect from a shooter.

 

[2alpha-down0]

USPSA uses rule 10.2.10.1 and 10.2.10.2 in this situation

10.2.10 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement.

10.2.10.1 Exception – In a weak hand/strong hand stage, a competitor who has physical use of only one hand may use the same hand for both weak and strong without penalty.

10.2.10.2 If the request is approved by the Range Master, a minimum of one procedural penalty, up to a maximum penalty of 20% of the competitor’s points “as shot” (rounded up to the nearest whole number), will be deducted from the competitor’s score. For example, if 100 points are available in the course of fire and the competitor actually scores 90 points, the special penalty is a deduction of 18 points. The Range Master may waive any or all procedural penalties in 46 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition respect of a competitor who has a significant physical disability prior to the competitor making his attempt at the course of fire.

Thanks, I saw reference to that section when I looked but didn't follow up. How have they been applying 10.2.10.1 to PCC, if at all?

 

[Mike Overlay]

Thanks, I saw reference to that section when I looked but didn't follow up. How have they been applying 10.2.10.1 to PCC, if at all?

I do not know. I havent seen the need arise for a PCC shooter yet