Picked up a Keltec sub2k (with two different mount test results)

Jayne

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I wanted a fun range toy and was shopping for AK pistols, but by the time I priced out the pistol, the brace, the optics mount and a few mags I was looking at close to $1000, and I have zero rounds of 7.62. Then I saw they had a 9mm Gen 2 sub2k that uses the glock mags, and I have lots of 9mm and glock mags so I decided to give it a try for $400. They assured me I could recoup most my money if I ended up hating it.

Gotta say though, it's way more fun than expected. I cleaned it up and took it to the range today. We got it sighted in at 25 and 50 and took some pot shots at the swingers at 100, then did some 33 round mag dumps (just for testing purposes mind you). It got really hot, but zero failures in 150+ rounds of Tula and Bernal 115gr steel case 9mm and one mag of 147gr speer subsonics. I've got the appropriate widget on order to mount a can, so we'll see how that works when it gets here.

Everyone knows they're crude and the trigger sucks and yada yada, but for a range toy I think it's pretty cool. Needs a red dot next, maybe the cool midwest industries mount. Won't be needing to get my money back out of it, it's a keeper.

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Welcome to the darkside. It is hard to beat this accurate, lightweight, and compact PCC, with matching magazines for your sidearm.
 
Glad to see you picked up tennis!
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You mention a red dot - do they stay 'dialed in' if you remove to fold it up and then reinstall?
I figured it would if you mounted it at the exact same spot, but Ive never thought to ask until now.
 
You mention a red dot - do they stay 'dialed in' if you remove to fold it up and then reinstall?
I figured it would if you mounted it at the exact same spot, but Ive never thought to ask until now.
You don't remove it. At least with the 1st gen, you either mounted an optic and gave up the ability to fully fold the rifle, or you got a rotating forend, so you could rotate the optic out of the way. I assume for the 2nd gen there is a similar aftermarket rotating forend or maybe Keltec's stock forend has this feature?
 
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It comes with iron optics on it. Sweet buy. Ill trade you for a forarm that turns and an optic.
 
I've got a Gen 1 and really enjoy it too. Super reliable and compact. Looks like hell and the trigger is spongey, but ... it's a Keltec!

It's also reasonably accurate using the "irons" (plastics?). Perfect backpack gun
 
Here is the best upgrade you can get for it,
http://www.mcarbo.com/kel-tec-sub-2000-trigger-spring-kit.aspx
I went with the whole kit for 99 dollars and i think it was well worth it.
20% off for the 4th at the moment
with code Happy Birthday America

I run stock triggers in anything I plan to use steel case 9mm in. I've seen how the lighter springs won't always set off the rock hard primers found in this ammo, and I'm going for reliability over "really nice trigger". On my precision rifles I'm all about nice setups, but on stuff like this... just make it go bang.
 
@Jayne I'm looking to pick up a Gen 2 sub2k for G22 mags. Did you get yours locally or better yet from a CFF site sponsor?
 
You don't remove it. At least with the 1st gen, you either mounted an optic and gave up the ability to fully fold the rifle, or you got a rotating forend, so you could rotate the optic out of the way. I assume for the 2nd gen there is a similar aftermarket rotating forend or maybe Keltec's stock forend has this feature?

Thank you for your reply.
BUT, out of curiousity
if you remove an optic and then reinstall at same point on the gun, would it still be accurate? I dont see why it wouldnt, but Ive never tried.

Do you know?
 
Thank you for your reply.
BUT, out of curiousity
if you remove an optic and then reinstall at same point on the gun, would it still be accurate? I dont see why it wouldnt, but Ive never tried.

Do you know?
If you clean off the mount, and push the optic toward the front of the mount every time, and tighten it down to the same degree, you should get decent repeatability for a non-precision firearm such as this. But you wouldn't know for sure until you shot it again to verify your zero. That gets old really, really quickly.
 
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There are a few companies that make a flip out mount that allows a red dot to be mounted and the rifle still fold. They work similar to those aimpoint magnifier mounts.
 
@Jayne I'm looking to pick up a Gen 2 sub2k for G22 mags. Did you get yours locally or better yet from a CFF site sponsor?

I got mine local at FG&G, but if you check over in the gunshow thread from last weekend you'll see backwoods bang shop maintains a wait list for the things at a lower price than I paid. They're talking the 9mm version, but I'm sure the 40s are out there too.
 
I loved everything about my sub2k except shooting it. they are definitely not lefty friendly at all.
 
I loved everything about my sub2k except shooting it. they are definitely not lefty friendly at all.

yea, based on @shadowsbane 's warning to lefties the one in our test group just fired it right handed. it would not be a good idea to have your face lined up with that ejection port.
 
So it's not just me being a wimp, the other guy has a lot of bruising on his shoulder from firing this thing the other day too. It's a 9mm, not sure why it's got such recoil. Best I can figure is that with the bolt being a huge percentage of the weight of the thing when it rattles back and forth it actually pulls the gun off your shoulder a bit and then slams it back into it when you're doing 'pray and spray' mag dumps.

Guess that's why they sell that little butt pad for these things.

I picked up some of the really light 147gr subsonic handloads that guys use in the matches to see if it can deal with really weak ammo. Won't get to try that until the weekend.
 
So it's not just me being a wimp, the other guy has a lot of bruising on his shoulder from firing this thing the other day too. It's a 9mm, not sure why it's got such recoil. Best I can figure is that with the bolt being a huge percentage of the weight of the thing when it rattles back and forth it actually pulls the gun off your shoulder a bit and then slams it back into it when you're doing 'pray and spray' mag dumps.

Guess that's why they sell that little butt pad for these things.

I picked up some of the really light 147gr subsonic handloads that guys use in the matches to see if it can deal with really weak ammo. Won't get to try that until the weekend.

Buy the recoil buffer because it works. I used them on both calibers for the Sub2k.

http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/sub-2000buffercylinder/

â—Źâ—Źâ—Ź You will not be able to lock the bolt with the recoil buffer.
 
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I should not have come back to this thread.... I had to scroll past those tacos. Now I want tacos. (but who are we kidding, who doesn't always want tacos?)

Ordered the midwest flip mount and a small red dot today, should be here in a bit and then I can get it mounted up. The fixed barrel adapter for the can arrived as well so some dot zeroing and can testing are in my weekend plans if all goes well.

I looked at the 1 o'clock and 45 degree mounts, and if the midwest doesn't perform I'll likely go the 1 o'clock version.
 
The mount and red dot showed up, but I did things a little differently than I've seen on-line. They want you to mount it so that the dot sits where the charging handle is when the bolt is closed. That means you store it bolt open and they give you paracord to tie around the bolt knob so that if it slips off the retaining... uh... notch that the bolt handle doesn't smash the optic.

If you mount it one rail section forward, it stores behind the closed bolt handle. No chance of any slippage or damage. The only downside then is that the dot is 1.5" forward. Having never used a red dot for much, does this really screw up the arrangement? Clearly there is a problem with that or they wouldn't do the cord trick so I didn't locktight it on yet.

I've got it mounted on the right side so that I can lay the thing down with the ejection port up and not have the mount hitting whatever the rifle is sitting on. Again, haven't settled on that 100%.

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If you mount it one rail section forward, it stores behind the closed bolt handle. No chance of any slippage or damage. The only downside then is that the dot is 1.5" forward. Having never used a red dot for much, does this really screw up the arrangement? Clearly there is a problem with that or they wouldn't do the cord trick so I didn't locktight it on yet.
Time yourself running steel plates, or other rapid fire situation, with the dot where it is currently and then farther back. I think you'll find that sight acquisition is a bit slower with the dot so far forward.
 
The mount and red dot showed up, but I did things a little differently than I've seen on-line. They want you to mount it so that the dot sits where the charging handle is when the bolt is closed. That means you store it bolt open and they give you paracord to tie around the bolt knob so that if it slips off the retaining... uh... notch that the bolt handle doesn't smash the optic.

If you mount it one rail section forward, it stores behind the closed bolt handle. No chance of any slippage or damage. The only downside then is that the dot is 1.5" forward. Having never used a red dot for much, does this really screw up the arrangement? Clearly there is a problem with that or they wouldn't do the cord trick so I didn't locktight it on yet.

I've got it mounted on the right side so that I can lay the thing down with the ejection port up and not have the mount hitting whatever the rifle is sitting on. Again, haven't settled on that 100%.

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I think your mounting is perfect. I never liked the paracord "safety" anyway. Looks kinda silly to market a mount and have to use a piece of string to prevent optics damage.
 
Took the sub2k out with the new red dot setup today and got it zeroed... sorta. For the life of me I could not get the damn thing to shoot worth anything. The red dot was totally easy to see, and I didn't think I was doing anything egregious with the trigger but I still couldn't say "ok, it's on at 25 yards lets move back".

Quest test, 5 shots at 25 yards with the iron sights (which I must admit I can't really see for crap, the front post will not come into focus... I'm getting to where I can't ignore the need for glasses anymore). Anyway, here:
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Then I rotate the red dot back into place and it's super easy to hold on target, but the group looks like this:

red_dot_test_1.jpg

If you bench the rifle and tap the mount you can see the dot swinging around and then coming back to rest... but never really in the same spot. Sometimes it's 8"+ to the left or right, only to snap back again. The mount is really not usable to mount optics on, just the recoil of the 9mm is enough to bounce it around between shots. I had it torqued on the mlock rail fine, it was the swivel part that would not stay fixed.

Love the red dot though, going to try to return this mount and find another option.

Ammo wise it continues to be 100% so far. Russian steel, speer 147gr subsonic, some remington 115gr fmj, 124gr "silencer subsonic" american eagle in the black box, and some 147gr sub hand loads. Some slow fire, some rapid fire, one 33 round mag dump just because. Used one of the ETS mags with the speer, no issues there either.

The 147gr speer did not stay subsonic, btw. Still hearing safe but a noticeable crack vs. the hand loads and the 124gr which were nice and quiet with the can.
 
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Could be the dot. I have had to send back two PA red dots.
 
Major violation of the scientific principle... I changed two things at once. I got the new magpul 1 o'clock mount and put the PA dot on it... and it wasn't really usable. To actually get the dot centered I had to smash my face onto the 'tube' to the point of ridiculousness. It was not something you would want to do for fun. I didn't have any spacers for the PA mount, but I did have some spacers for the sparc 2 dot that's on my shotgun...

The PA dot seems smaller/lower and works really well on the shotgun, in fact I can run a more normal cheek weld on the shotgun (mossberg 500) and see the dot a lot easier than with the sparc 2 with no spacers, which was how it was mounted (lowest position). I have to re-zero the shotgun now which is never fun, but in the end I think it will be a better combo than was on there before.

The sparc 2 with the low spacer, the middle height, sits right where I want it to be able to get my eye lined up and things centered. Having the dot hanging off the side of the sub2k kinda ruins the size, it feels clumsy, but if it lets me shoot it then that's the price we pay for accuracy. The high spacer doesn't promote a good cheek weld on the stock and really sticks out there.

With the high spacer I could have mounted the thing back on the closest mloc slot, but as it sits now it would bang into the castle nut if I tried to mount it there. This is one slot back from where the midwest mount was.
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Got to the range later last night and got to test out the new mount with the different red dot. The results were... horrible. The dot did not move the entire time, the mount wasn't loose, everything was lock-tighted down, etc, etc. Here are the final two groups before I called it for the night. The red circles represent a 3 shot group with the red dot. The green circles represent a 4 shot group with the iron sights (was going for a 5 shot group but ran out of ammo). Same shooter, same ammo:

vortex_test.jpg

Couple thoughts:

1. I don't know how to use a red dot (mitigated by having multiple shooters try, so maybe we all don't know)
2. Red dot is bad (mitigated by using multiple red dots)
3. Mount is bad (mitigated by using multiple mounts)
4. Rifle is a 30MOA rifle (mitigated by using the iron sights, and hitting 8" plates @ 100)
5. Ammo is bad (mitigated by using the same ammo from the same batch for all testing)
6. Hand guard is loose (mitigated by torquing all the guard screws before each range trip)

The only conclusion I can draw is that the hand guard is not stable enough to support an optic, and that perhaps the midwest mount flopping around actually helped in some way. In any case, I'm going to give up on the optic on the sub2k and just run it with the irons as they appear to do the job.
 
Got to the range later last night and got to test out the new mount with the different red dot. The results were... horrible. The dot did not move the entire time, the mount wasn't loose, everything was lock-tighted down, etc, etc. Here are the final two groups before I called it for the night. The red circles represent a 3 shot group with the red dot. The green circles represent a 4 shot group with the iron sights (was going for a 5 shot group but ran out of ammo). Same shooter, same ammo:

View attachment 16505

Couple thoughts:

1. I don't know how to use a red dot (mitigated by having multiple shooters try, so maybe we all don't know)
2. Red dot is bad (mitigated by using multiple red dots)
3. Mount is bad (mitigated by using multiple mounts)
4. Rifle is a 30MOA rifle (mitigated by using the iron sights, and hitting 8" plates @ 100)
5. Ammo is bad (mitigated by using the same ammo from the same batch for all testing)
6. Hand guard is loose (mitigated by torquing all the guard screws before each range trip)

The only conclusion I can draw is that the hand guard is not stable enough to support an optic, and that perhaps the midwest mount flopping around actually helped in some way. In any case, I'm going to give up on the optic on the sub2k and just run it with the irons as they appear to do the job.

I think that's a pretty good conclusion. Looks like you shoot it well enough with the irons. I think for that rifle's purpose optics is unnecessary weight. It's on my long term list of guns to buy!


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I think that's a pretty good conclusion.

What I don't understand is how MAC (the youtube guy) was so positive on the midwest mount setup. I guess as long as you're just hitting a full size steel silhouette at 25-50 yards it's "good enough"? I can't recall if they did any target/accuracy work. Or there is still something fundamentally wrong with the way we're mounting or using the dots?
 
I'd be interested in seeing what my handloads do in that rifle.

Tighten it right up to 25MOA?

It's run some really light handloads with zero drama so as long as your loads have enough ooph to cycle a G34 then they'll likely work. Or were you talking about your 9mm major loads? Trying to blow my pipe gun up?
 
Not to fix the sight mounting thing but if you are okay with it and going to keep it check out www.mcarbo.com for truck parts that might help those shortcomings you just can't stand. The spring kit is the only thing I've done and it help feel but the little gun is what it is a compact nice little pistol carbine not a tack driver but does what I wanted it for.
 
My guess is that the hand guard has too much flex in it. And, with the red dot mounted so high, a little flex at the hand guard will amount to lot of movement at the optic. I'm not so sure that the hand guard that indexes will return back to zero every time, either.
 
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