Picking a Node on Velocity Ladder Test / Satterlee Method

MDof2

MDof2

I'm the meme guy
Multi-Factor Enabled
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
9,079
Location
NC / MI
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
TLDR: Pick the fast one(s) or the slow one(s)?

I've been tinkering with Scott Satterlee's ladder test method a bit and came across a question in my drive to and from the range to do a second and third tests.

In his method of 10 rounds aver a crony, then loosely pick a load based on flat spots in velocity and hone in from there, is there a rhyme or reason in picking one higher (faster) or or lower (slower) in the 10 or 20 round initial velocity data gathering?

I ran a test of 15 rounds between 36g and 40.5 grains and have 3, potentially 4 identifiable plateaus I can pick from.
I chased three of them with 5 shot groups, all returning respectable results (.4moa, .5moa and .7moa), and show signs of improving with neck tension, seating depth etc. and testing again with SD numbers to compare the next layer down in the minutia.

Is there a rhyme or reason to picking a faster node versus another? Or am I wrapping my head around something I don't need to? If I have a node at 2400, 2550, and 2800, is there a reason to favor one over the other? Everything else being equal?

Appreciate any input from those who have used this method and their direct experiences.
 
MDof2 said:
TLDR: Pick the fast one(s) or the slow one(s)?
Click to expand...

What are you gunning for...accuracy, velocity or both?

I worked up a 5.56 load using Speer 75gr GDSP and 8208XBR. Factory offering is loaded to .223 Rem pressures, but I’m running them primarily out of a 10.3” barreled rig. Couldn’t find any 5.56 data using 8208, so I started at max load -1 using .223 data (IIRC, it was 22.5 gr.). Loads:

22.5
22.8
23.0
23.2
23.4

Out of the 5, 23.2 and 23.4 produced the best accuracy (really no discernible difference). While the 23.4 gr load gave me a bit more “umph” in velocity, the cases showed slight (very slight) pressure signs. Even though 8208 is temp stable, I backed down to 23.2 and went with it as my “go to” load for the 75s, as 23.2 gr showed no pressure signs at all.

That load gives me the performance I am looking for at the desired range. Speer lists the ET for that bullet at 1600. If my math is correct and based upon my chrono data, it should still be clocking 1600+ out to 300.

***DISCLAIMER: Load data shown here is OVER max***
 
Last edited:
First what is your intended use for this cartridge: hunting, PRS/LR shooting, benchrest comps?

Some of the reasons behind choosing the faster node would be flatter trajectory and less wind drift. Most people shooting long range will go with the highest/fastest node that does not show pressure signs.

If you want to see what different trajectories the velocities of 2400, 2550, and 2800 fps give you for your specific bullet just plug all the info into JBM:

https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

If you are only ever going to shoot inside of 300yds then the 2550 fps node could be a very viable choice that could yield slightly longer barrel and brass life.
 
Yep, to Bunsen and wsfd. Primarily a PRS load. Mid-range 600 to 1000-ish yards. Solid dependable repeatable go-to load for PRS in one of my 6.5 rigs.
The more I'm playing with it / read up / poke around, I think the higher node would make sense in every case for distance based on the died in the wool "velocity is paramount to accuracy at distance"

Here are the two I narrowed down from the initial test, however the 40.2 is still nearly a grain off max book load so I may run another batch and see if I can find something up in the 2800 to 3000fps area.
Notwithstanding what may be shooter error on one of the shots taking the higher group from .3moa to .7, or simply looking at vertical stringing alone, my question on faster vs slower started wandering around in the back of my mind to conventional thinking.....

Finally, I'm new to Satterlee's method, so I'm trying to have a little fun with it while trying to learn a different approach. I know some love it, some hate it, whatever. I'm not married to it, but figured I'd give my college go.

rT9gpJp.png


rR1TulO.png
 
MDof2 said:
Yep, to Bunsen and wsfd. Primarily a PRS load. Mid-range 600 to 1000-ish yards. Solid dependable repeatable go-to load for PRS in one of my 6.5 rigs.
The more I'm playing with it / read up / poke around, I think the higher node would make sense in every case for distance based on the died in the wool "velocity is paramount to accuracy at distance"

Here are the two I narrowed down from the initial test, however the 40.2 is still nearly a grain off max book load so I may run another batch and see if I can find something up in the 2800 to 3000fps area.
Notwithstanding what may be shooter error on one of the shots taking the higher group from .3moa to .7, or simply looking at vertical stringing alone, my question on faster vs slower started wandering around in the back of my mind to conventional thinking.....

Finally, I'm new to Satterlee's method, so I'm trying to have a little fun with it while trying to learn a different approach. I know some love it, some hate it, whatever. I'm not married to it, but figured I'd give my college go.

rT9gpJp.png


rR1TulO.png
Click to expand...

My 6.5 prs load is 41.5 gr of H4350 with. 140 ELDM. Its getting me about 2760fps out of my Tikka. It hammers when I do my part. You are going to want to be at 2700 or above in my opinion for prs with 140 gr bullets. When my new rifle gets here I’ll be trying to run it ( a 6 dasher with 105 bergers) @ 2950 because that bullet seems to like that speed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Zbizzle911 said:
My 6.5 prs load is 41.5 gr of H4350 with. 140 ELDM. Its getting me about 2760fps out of my Tikka. It hammers when I do my part. You are going to want to be at 2700 or above in my opinion for prs with 140 gr bullets.
Click to expand...
Agreed. That's the exact slug / powder combo I'm working with as well.
I'm noticing that it seems everyone wants to run that bullet in the 2700 to 3100 fps range.

Maybe I keep this for slower reference and run another 39.5g to 41.5g test and see what shows up. IIRC, 41 is compressed a bit as well isn't it?
 
Last edited:
MDof2 said:
Agreed. That's the exact slug / powder combo I'm working with as well.
I'm noticing that it seems everyone wants to run that bullet in the 2700 to 3100 fps range.

Maybe I keep this for slower reference and run another 39.5g to 41.5g test and see what shows up. IIRC, 41 is compressed a bit as well isn't it?
Click to expand...

I don’t think so 41.5 is the stated max for H4350 though. You’ll be fine in the 2700 range. I personally wouldn’t want to be below 2690.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I was under the impression that ladder development was for shots at 200 yards or greater and that Optimum Charge Weight (OCW) was the preferred method for short ranges.

I'm new to all of this and you definitely have more experience than me so take the above with some skepticism.
 
carolina-snipe said:
I was under the impression that ladder development was for shots at 200 yards or greater and that Optimum Charge Weight (OCW) was the preferred method for short ranges.

I'm new to all of this and you definitely have more experience than me so take the above with some skepticism.
Click to expand...
The ladder/ Satterlee method isn't shot for groups like OCW. It is only looking for speed nodes. You then work with charge and seating depth to dial in the groups.
 
Zbizzle911 said:
I don’t think so 41.5 is the stated max for H4350 though. You’ll be fine in the 2700 range. I personally wouldn’t want to be below 2690.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Sorry. That was my mistake. I was looking at a different powder / compressed load options.

I'll load up a batch and look at velocities from 39.5 to 41-ish looking for pressure signs on the top and hopefully find something around 2700ish.
 
If your goal is a 600-1k yd PRS load then you will want to focus more on SD and ES of the load than what the groups measure at 100yds. It's all going to be about velocity variance and vertical stringing.

Since this is a 6.5 Creed pushing 140gr projectiles with H4350 you will want to jump up to the node around 41.3gr H4350. I'd load 2 rounds each at 41.1gr, 41.3gr, 41.5gr, & 41.7gr that should definitely find the upper end of the node and probably the low end. Dependent on your Lot# of H4350, primer, cases, barrel and rifle you should definitely be in the ballpark and just need to refine bullet seating depth and neck tension to minimize SD.
 
Bunsen said:
If your goal is a 600-1k yd PRS load then you will want to focus more on SD and ES of the load than what the groups measure at 100yds. It's all going to be about velocity variance and vertical stringing.

Since this is a 6.5 Creed pushing 140gr projectiles with H4350 you will want to jump up to the node around 41.3gr H4350. I'd load 2 rounds each at 41.1gr, 41.3gr, 41.5gr, & 41.7gr that should definitely find the upper end of the node and probably the low end. Dependent on your Lot# of H4350, primer, cases, barrel and rifle you should definitely be in the ballpark and just need to refine bullet seating depth and neck tension to minimize SD.
Click to expand...
Yep. That's right where I'm at in the process.
Just loaded a batch at .2 grain increments that I'll go run across the chrono and then play with SD/ES
Appreciate the input and feedback.
 
Second verse, same as the first- two promising areas. I didn't see pressure signs at 41.5 (max published load) and wish I had a couple more data points just above that to see where the numbers went.

That being said, I think (correct me if I'm wrong from those with the Satterlee method experience) I want to hone in on 41.0 to 41.5 area and see what SD/ES is with a few rounds and see what grouping looks like? Tune from there, seating, tension, etc.
I like the numbers. Was wanting to get right in the 2700ish fps range.

R2Wv8F6.jpg
 
Now comes the Analysis Paralysis......
All of these jump a country mile in this particular rifle .060" so next steps would be to test jump increments closing the jump a bit.
Book COAL is 2.820.
Factory match ammo with this same bullet measures right about 2.812 to 815.
I've been loading to the factory length thus far. I would he hard pressed to think they need / want more jump?!?!

Would you start with 1, 2, or 3. I'm leaning toward 1 or 3.

pvIM0HE.png

HajZuCr.png

6XFt5zB.png
 
I'll throw this in from my current playground of black powder cartridge competition. Interior ballistics are interior ballistics. When you find a node that is within acceptable pressure range, go for it. The caveat is this- I'd choose the one with the smallest SD and extreme spread in velocity and work from there. Guys in BPCR obsess over it and shoot for SD and extreme velocity spread in the single digits. You read that right, single digits. When your initial muzzle velocity is on the order of 1500fps, very small changes make for very big differences at 1k yds.
 
MDof2 said:
Now comes the Analysis Paralysis......
All of these jump a country mile in this particular rifle .060" so next steps would be to test jump increments closing the jump a bit.
Book COAL is 2.820.
Factory match ammo with this same bullet measures right about 2.812 to 815.
I've been loading to the factory length thus far. I would he hard pressed to think they need / want more jump?!?!

Would you start with 1, 2, or 3. I'm leaning toward 1 or 3.

pvIM0HE.png

HajZuCr.png

6XFt5zB.png
Click to expand...

I would tinker with the 41.4 & .5 I am loading the 140 eldm to 2.800 in my Tikka over 41.5 of h4350 and love it. I’ve had three straight hits at a mile with it. They’re running 2760 iirc out of my rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Zbizzle911 said:
I would tinker with the 41.4 & .5 I am loading the 140 eldm to 2.800 in my Tikka over 41.5 of h4350 and love it. I’ve had three straight hits at a mile with it. They’re running 2760 iirc out of my rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
How far are they jumping to the lands in your Tikka?
 
Maybe these like jumping that much.
I'm also limited by mag length which is not much more than book COL.

Planning to tinker with length to hopefully tighten up horizontal dispersion.
 
We'll, seems they want to jump about 75ish in this gun. They crono at 2740 with an ES/SD of 38/13 respectively. This is with 41.4g of H4350 and F210M primers. Haven't ran any other primers across it. Only seating depth adjustments.

Attempting to tune further to get the SD down another couple points. They group well now at 100, which if they continue to do so out at 300 and 600, I may just call good enough good and start on the next load project.

Vertical dispersion downrange is key for me for the purpose of this load, so if I could get ES down to 20 I think I'd be pretty happy with the results. As it stands now, with an SD of 13, the load performed well at the match I shot yesterday.

Happy at this point, but think there's a little more I may be able to squeeze out of it.

As always, appreciate the peeps round these parts with the tips and pointers. #hattip
 
Last edited:
MDof2 said:
We'll, seems they want to jump about 75ish in this gun. They crono at 2740 with an ES/SD of 38/13 respectively. This is with 41.4g of H4350 and F210M primers. Haven't ran any other primers across it. Only seating depth adjustments.

Attempting to tune further to get the SD down another couple points. They group well now at 100, which if they continue to do so out at 300 and 600, I may just call good enough good and start on the next load project.

Vertical dispersion downrange is key for me for the purpose of this load, so if I could get ES down to 20 I think I'd be pretty happy with the results. As it stands now, with an SD of 13, the load performed well at the match I shot yesterday.

Happy at this point, but think there's a little more I may be able to squeeze out of it.

As always, appreciate the peeps round these parts with the tips and pointers. #hattip
Click to expand...

How many firings on brass? Do you anneal? What’s your neck tension?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
4th firing on this brass at the moment / yes, after every firing / haven't measured it yet for a specific bushing but whatever Redding FL dies do with Hornady brass. I don't recall where Hornady is in the spectrum of thin, thicc, etc. compared to Lapua, Starline, Peterson, etc. It's on my list of first things to do when I go back down to the bench. Map out that geometry to know what that number is.
 
Last edited:
Zbizzle911 said:
What’s your neck tension?
Click to expand...
Most are measuring right in the .003" neighborhood. Not less. Obviously, this is stock brass, stock dies, no neck turning so there will be some variance here and there.
I'm thinking I may bushing down to .002" and run a few over the crono and see what the numbers do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom