Pistol caliber rifles as vehicle guns are pointless
- Thread starter drypowder
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So you're equating effectiveness with ballistic superiority when it comes to a vehicle weapon, and I'm the one using flawed logic.
I think I see where you're coming from now.
1). Should the need arise..... any gun is better than no gun.
2). If you must fight and drive. You are in a world of doo doo. Drive until you can't. Then fight until you can't. Evading will give the most positive outcome for your health.
3). Exiting the vehicle with any weapon is a clear indicator of hostilities toward an agressor. Therefore engage with extreme prejudice and diligent marksmanship for a positive effect.
4). Whether pistol or rifle, you must make hits that count at the engagement range.
5). More ammunition is better. We are human and when we get excited....... we can miss..... a lot.
Pistol or rifle? What holds a lot of ammo, gives the best chance of staying on target, has effective threat removal capability? For me that means a rifle caliber carbine. SBR with suppression would be ideal. Better yet an effective means to put distance between me and the threat is my preferred option.
2). If you must fight and drive. You are in a world of doo doo. Drive until you can't. Then fight until you can't. Evading will give the most positive outcome for your health.
3). Exiting the vehicle with any weapon is a clear indicator of hostilities toward an agressor. Therefore engage with extreme prejudice and diligent marksmanship for a positive effect.
4). Whether pistol or rifle, you must make hits that count at the engagement range.
5). More ammunition is better. We are human and when we get excited....... we can miss..... a lot.
Pistol or rifle? What holds a lot of ammo, gives the best chance of staying on target, has effective threat removal capability? For me that means a rifle caliber carbine. SBR with suppression would be ideal. Better yet an effective means to put distance between me and the threat is my preferred option.
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50 rounds of 5.7 @ 19.1". (ETA: barrel is 10.4", so velocity is not an issue)
Close enough?
And only another ~6" to suppress it.
The 9mm gold dot is an amazing bullet.
It will kill big things at long range. It is accurate, if you are practiced.
The .223 is accurate at long range and is a definite deterrent to anything shot in the eye socket.
When I'm talking long range in an urban environment I will limit it to 100/150 yards.
Soooo ... carry what you are practiced with, accurate with, can carry in a vehicle easily, can get to easily, can remove from said vehicle easily and has plenty of capacity.
See how easy all of this is ...
It will kill big things at long range. It is accurate, if you are practiced.
The .223 is accurate at long range and is a definite deterrent to anything shot in the eye socket.
When I'm talking long range in an urban environment I will limit it to 100/150 yards.
Soooo ... carry what you are practiced with, accurate with, can carry in a vehicle easily, can get to easily, can remove from said vehicle easily and has plenty of capacity.
See how easy all of this is ...
Damned..... You guys be badazz.....
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I dunno. Got mixed feelings on the subject. Anybody who throws out any hard and fast rule in this regard is not being genuine with themselves and have likely fell prey to "watching too much tv". Or at the very least the specific need or circumstance during which you would use these firearms have not been articulated well.
First off I would eliminate MY "perceived use" because I don't think that is what we are discussing here.
I live in a rural setting. I rarely go to "the big city" (Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro etc.).
I MIGHT end up in one of those cities 3 or 4 times per year max.
In the spirit of my "perceived use" a lever .30-30, SKS, 16 inch M-4 type rifle, scoped .22 Magnum, or even a shotgun at times will do.
Pistol caliber carbines nor short barreled rifles have any place in my EDC truck/trunk rotation.
But once again, I'm pretty sure that is not what we are discussing.
I "THINK" we are discussing needing more firepower in town because we are in either 1 of 4 situations. I may be overlooking a scenario and am open to hearing what that is.
1. You are in your vehicle when a pretty bad riot situation starts and it's not unreasonable to think you may die at the hands of the masses. We can also include the "Argentina slow side a la FERFAL" scenario here. Venezuela, or whatever.
2. You happen to be in your vehicle in a city the moment the long term SHTF/zombie apocalypse starts.
3. The SHTF/zombie apocalypse has ALREADY started and you need to use a vehicle to get from point A to point B for whatever reason (evacuation, picking up a family member in town, etc.)
4. SHTF starts while you are in vehicle and you must walk to home or safer location.
In the first scenario, you are probably not gonna have passengers firing from your vehicle at other vehicles. Hard target penetration is probably not gonna be a necessary criteria to meet. And you are still likely to face legal scrutiny from the system once the dust settles. In this first scenario it is more than likely a "numbers game" with soft targets and will necessarily be at closer ranges. For me, neither a PCC or an SBR make any sense unless you abandon your vehicle. If you are alone and must fire into soft targets while driving anything other than a handgun is virtually nonsensical.
In scenarios 2 and 3, hard target penetration could very well be a factor, but overwhelmingly from closer ranges, especially if alone in your vehicle.
In scenario 4, I could certainly see penetration on hard targets from a longer distance being desirable. For example, coming up on a true "bottleneck" where an ambush is already established. Few "true" bottlenecks exist around here for folks on foot, but they are certainly more prevalent in an urban environment.
Now I'll try to "qualify" my opinion before I give it.
I think for most folks, calling me a "redneck" is not too big of a leap. I'm down with it. As long as you aren't an "ignorant redneck" "unique" non-range learning opportunities abound! LOL! My lifestyle, coupled with my experience in Fire and EMS, and my time working in a hospital, and oddly enough, my time working in a salvage yard, coupled with the folks I hang out with, have steered me towards compiling certain data that influence my choices. Much of it is anecdotal but repeatable. Much of it shall NEVER be discussed on a forum if for no other reason than avoidance of even the whiff of impropriety or the mere appearance of condoning unsafe behavior. That is what the firebowl nights are for. Kinda.
Vehicles
I've shot whole vehicles or parts of vehicles (think grabbing a door from my neighbors salvage yard and carrying it back to our berm).
I've shot cars and trucks with 9mm from handguns and an MP5 and an MP5SD.
I've shot cars and trucks with 5.56 from 4 inch barrels, 10.5" barrels, 14.5, 16, and 20 inch as well.
I've done it with 7.62X39, 7.62x51, 7.62x51 API, .308, .30-06, .280 (yes .280, long story), 7mm Magnum, 5.7 (handgun only), .22 Magnum, .22LR, .30-30. .35 Remington, 12 gauge buckshot, 12 gauge slugs, .45ACP and 10mm (handguns only), 44 magnum, .357 Magnum, and probably a few I am forgetting.
All the above is shooting into the body of the vehicles, not windshields, which we have also done, but more limited on the calibers.
Oddly enough, the only time we set a vehicle on fire by shooting it, was not with the API rounds, or tracers, but with some regular old Core-Lokt from a .30-06. It was kinda funny. The shots were fired into the front passenger door.
We've shot different rounds into trees to see which ones come out the other side.
We've built fake doors and walls out of wood and shot through them.
We've shot every liquid container known to man full and empty.
I once shot 4-6" ice at my feet with and M1-Carbine while myself and two of my friends were standing on the deep end of a pond.
I've shot large (250 gallon) propane tanks to see what would really penetrate them.
I shot a rabbit one time while playing basketball with some friends.
Participated in a contest too see who could "skip" fired rounds off of water the farthest.
And lots of other sometimes stupid stuff that I won't post here.
I've shot various critters (which I know have very different characteristics from humans, but oftentimes, flesh is flesh.) with all kinds of calibers.
Nothing will burst your academic "ballistics bubble" like shooting a wounded deer in the head with a .357 Magnum with premium ammo from 3 feet away and needing to do it again. Or hitting a snapping turtle in the back with a .44 Mag. and the damn thing still catches and kills a duckling.
I've tried hitting targets from moving vehicles as the driver.
I've tried hitting targets from a moving vehicle as a passenger (as a passenger I have tried it with select fire and semi., handgun and long gun, shotguns with short barrels and 18 inch barrels).
I say all that to preface THIS.
In scenarios 1,2, and 3, if the choice is between a 9mm SBR and a 5.56 SBR, I will take the 9mm every time. And it will be loaded with ball ammo. I'll have 9mm HPs on hand if circumstances change. They will be in the mags of my handgun. The 5.56 SBR does not offer me enough advantage to put up with the disadvantages (those being obnoxious noise and blast, and less penetration on hard targets from close to intermediate range). Even if they are both suppressed and select fire I still choose 9mm. If money was no object my ideal truck gun for the first 3 scenarios I outlined would be an MP-5SD. Since money is a factor, I would most likely carry my 9mm-AR with 10.5" barrel or my Glock 17 Micro-Roni setup. But I promise you they would not be used unless I had a passenger or I exit the vehicle.
I'll admit, scenario 4 gives me pause with unilaterally saying I would go with 9mm carbine. If the real deal SHTF started while I was in a city, I would hope like hell I had a 16 inch AR or full sized AK.
So, I'm torn.
For me, if I am carrying something in addition to my two handguns I carry every day, In the city, it's either gonna be a 16" AR in 5.56, or a short 9mm.
I have a 10.5" AR in 5.56. I hate to seem like I am really down on them. I'm not. I enjoy mine.
I live in the country. The place I work is not in the city. I have a few guns to choose from. I don't carry a long gun on a regular basis nor do I plan to at this time. If I did, it would probably be a scoped .30-30. It matches "my outfit". LOL! And my eyesight seems to be changing every couple of months here lately.
I don't live in or frequent the big city. If I did, and I decided to keep a long gun in the vehicle, and it needed to be "short", it would be a 9mm. I don't think the extra "umph" in a short barreled 5.56 means anything to me. It certainly doesn't translate to better penetration on hard targets in my experience. Ball vs. ball anyway. Or even green tip vs. ball.
Most of this fun and sometimes stupid stuff I and my friends have done over the years was of course prior to the "benefit" of phones with cameras. Probably luckily so in some cases. Those of you who know me will take me at my word, those that don't may not. It's okay. It's a gorgeous day and I am not mad or bored enough to worry about "winning the nets" today.
But on a related note, I did receive several hundred rounds of the "new" M855-A1 (Alpha One) 5.56 rounds for my birthday.I haven't shot any yet. Maybe my neighbor has a couple of cars I can shoot up. If I do I'll shoot some comparisons and post the results. Maybe I should take a fire extinguisher this time. I'm not sure how tungsten plays with insulation in door panels yet.
First off I would eliminate MY "perceived use" because I don't think that is what we are discussing here.
I live in a rural setting. I rarely go to "the big city" (Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro etc.).
I MIGHT end up in one of those cities 3 or 4 times per year max.
In the spirit of my "perceived use" a lever .30-30, SKS, 16 inch M-4 type rifle, scoped .22 Magnum, or even a shotgun at times will do.
Pistol caliber carbines nor short barreled rifles have any place in my EDC truck/trunk rotation.
But once again, I'm pretty sure that is not what we are discussing.
I "THINK" we are discussing needing more firepower in town because we are in either 1 of 4 situations. I may be overlooking a scenario and am open to hearing what that is.
1. You are in your vehicle when a pretty bad riot situation starts and it's not unreasonable to think you may die at the hands of the masses. We can also include the "Argentina slow side a la FERFAL" scenario here. Venezuela, or whatever.
2. You happen to be in your vehicle in a city the moment the long term SHTF/zombie apocalypse starts.
3. The SHTF/zombie apocalypse has ALREADY started and you need to use a vehicle to get from point A to point B for whatever reason (evacuation, picking up a family member in town, etc.)
4. SHTF starts while you are in vehicle and you must walk to home or safer location.
In the first scenario, you are probably not gonna have passengers firing from your vehicle at other vehicles. Hard target penetration is probably not gonna be a necessary criteria to meet. And you are still likely to face legal scrutiny from the system once the dust settles. In this first scenario it is more than likely a "numbers game" with soft targets and will necessarily be at closer ranges. For me, neither a PCC or an SBR make any sense unless you abandon your vehicle. If you are alone and must fire into soft targets while driving anything other than a handgun is virtually nonsensical.
In scenarios 2 and 3, hard target penetration could very well be a factor, but overwhelmingly from closer ranges, especially if alone in your vehicle.
In scenario 4, I could certainly see penetration on hard targets from a longer distance being desirable. For example, coming up on a true "bottleneck" where an ambush is already established. Few "true" bottlenecks exist around here for folks on foot, but they are certainly more prevalent in an urban environment.
Now I'll try to "qualify" my opinion before I give it.
I think for most folks, calling me a "redneck" is not too big of a leap. I'm down with it. As long as you aren't an "ignorant redneck" "unique" non-range learning opportunities abound! LOL! My lifestyle, coupled with my experience in Fire and EMS, and my time working in a hospital, and oddly enough, my time working in a salvage yard, coupled with the folks I hang out with, have steered me towards compiling certain data that influence my choices. Much of it is anecdotal but repeatable. Much of it shall NEVER be discussed on a forum if for no other reason than avoidance of even the whiff of impropriety or the mere appearance of condoning unsafe behavior. That is what the firebowl nights are for. Kinda.
Vehicles
I've shot whole vehicles or parts of vehicles (think grabbing a door from my neighbors salvage yard and carrying it back to our berm).
I've shot cars and trucks with 9mm from handguns and an MP5 and an MP5SD.
I've shot cars and trucks with 5.56 from 4 inch barrels, 10.5" barrels, 14.5, 16, and 20 inch as well.
I've done it with 7.62X39, 7.62x51, 7.62x51 API, .308, .30-06, .280 (yes .280, long story), 7mm Magnum, 5.7 (handgun only), .22 Magnum, .22LR, .30-30. .35 Remington, 12 gauge buckshot, 12 gauge slugs, .45ACP and 10mm (handguns only), 44 magnum, .357 Magnum, and probably a few I am forgetting.
All the above is shooting into the body of the vehicles, not windshields, which we have also done, but more limited on the calibers.
Oddly enough, the only time we set a vehicle on fire by shooting it, was not with the API rounds, or tracers, but with some regular old Core-Lokt from a .30-06. It was kinda funny. The shots were fired into the front passenger door.
We've shot different rounds into trees to see which ones come out the other side.
We've built fake doors and walls out of wood and shot through them.
We've shot every liquid container known to man full and empty.
I once shot 4-6" ice at my feet with and M1-Carbine while myself and two of my friends were standing on the deep end of a pond.
I've shot large (250 gallon) propane tanks to see what would really penetrate them.
I shot a rabbit one time while playing basketball with some friends.
Participated in a contest too see who could "skip" fired rounds off of water the farthest.
And lots of other sometimes stupid stuff that I won't post here.
I've shot various critters (which I know have very different characteristics from humans, but oftentimes, flesh is flesh.) with all kinds of calibers.
Nothing will burst your academic "ballistics bubble" like shooting a wounded deer in the head with a .357 Magnum with premium ammo from 3 feet away and needing to do it again. Or hitting a snapping turtle in the back with a .44 Mag. and the damn thing still catches and kills a duckling.
I've tried hitting targets from moving vehicles as the driver.
I've tried hitting targets from a moving vehicle as a passenger (as a passenger I have tried it with select fire and semi., handgun and long gun, shotguns with short barrels and 18 inch barrels).
I say all that to preface THIS.
In scenarios 1,2, and 3, if the choice is between a 9mm SBR and a 5.56 SBR, I will take the 9mm every time. And it will be loaded with ball ammo. I'll have 9mm HPs on hand if circumstances change. They will be in the mags of my handgun. The 5.56 SBR does not offer me enough advantage to put up with the disadvantages (those being obnoxious noise and blast, and less penetration on hard targets from close to intermediate range). Even if they are both suppressed and select fire I still choose 9mm. If money was no object my ideal truck gun for the first 3 scenarios I outlined would be an MP-5SD. Since money is a factor, I would most likely carry my 9mm-AR with 10.5" barrel or my Glock 17 Micro-Roni setup. But I promise you they would not be used unless I had a passenger or I exit the vehicle.
I'll admit, scenario 4 gives me pause with unilaterally saying I would go with 9mm carbine. If the real deal SHTF started while I was in a city, I would hope like hell I had a 16 inch AR or full sized AK.
So, I'm torn.
For me, if I am carrying something in addition to my two handguns I carry every day, In the city, it's either gonna be a 16" AR in 5.56, or a short 9mm.
I have a 10.5" AR in 5.56. I hate to seem like I am really down on them. I'm not. I enjoy mine.
I live in the country. The place I work is not in the city. I have a few guns to choose from. I don't carry a long gun on a regular basis nor do I plan to at this time. If I did, it would probably be a scoped .30-30. It matches "my outfit". LOL! And my eyesight seems to be changing every couple of months here lately.
I don't live in or frequent the big city. If I did, and I decided to keep a long gun in the vehicle, and it needed to be "short", it would be a 9mm. I don't think the extra "umph" in a short barreled 5.56 means anything to me. It certainly doesn't translate to better penetration on hard targets in my experience. Ball vs. ball anyway. Or even green tip vs. ball.
Most of this fun and sometimes stupid stuff I and my friends have done over the years was of course prior to the "benefit" of phones with cameras. Probably luckily so in some cases. Those of you who know me will take me at my word, those that don't may not. It's okay. It's a gorgeous day and I am not mad or bored enough to worry about "winning the nets" today.
But on a related note, I did receive several hundred rounds of the "new" M855-A1 (Alpha One) 5.56 rounds for my birthday.I haven't shot any yet. Maybe my neighbor has a couple of cars I can shoot up. If I do I'll shoot some comparisons and post the results. Maybe I should take a fire extinguisher this time. I'm not sure how tungsten plays with insulation in door panels yet.
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drypowder
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Being measured is not a good way to stir the pot, which was my intent, it being Friday and all.
That said, this was quite a well considered post, and you even articulated scenarios, which is something I asked for in the OP.
Not sure I agree on your selection though. US law enforcement used to run PCC's in the 80's and 90's and now nearly every law enforcement agency in the country (even out by you if I remember correctly) uses rifle caliber carbines. Watching European SWAT teams and their MP5's reminds me of the 80's/90's.
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thrillhill
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Sure. But only SOME SWAT teams. The rest was generally only on TV. LOL!
And Chatham County SO did not switch from PCC to SBRs, they switched from Remington 870 shotguns with 18" barrels to 14.5" AR carbines. And there is of course no "big city" in Chatham County.
That being said I have a couple of close friends on the SWAT team in Raleigh, which is I believe close to your area, and the largest department in our area of the state. They ran MP-5s up until about a month and half ago when they sold them. Now they are all 14.5" 5.56 ARs. When I asked one guy why they sold them, he said it was a budgetary issue. They could only afford to keep one rifle for each man. He said the guys with the MP-5s felt like they didn't have the versatility they needed. The example was having to take a shot across a Wal-Mart parking lot. That kind of distance. He said that despite preferring the MP-5 for certain circumstances, especially when trying to serve a warrant buy stopping folks in vehicles, they could only pick one.
You and I are not cops, and our scenarios have nothing to do with policing. And we can choose from more than one or even two for that matter.
And in the city, in some of the scenarios envisioned, especially the first, I do not NEED the versatility to make the longer shots. Of course I still have it if I want it on 9mm since I, unlike LEOs, can choose whatever optic I want.
And in some scenarios, I would choose a 5.56 16" gun.
But one thing I won't choose, is the same thing that your big SWAT team and my county SO did not choose. And that is a SBR in a rifle caliber.
Your initial reasoning that the ballistics of the rifle caliber rifle are better, is true, but only with caveats.
An MP-5 firing ball penetrates cars and lots of other hard cover better than a 16" AR in 5.56 at distances likely to be encountered in our scenarios.
And the SBR 5.56 penetrates even less than the rifle. And if you refuse to take into account everything else from someone who shoots stuff other than paper, hear this. Expansion is MOSTLY a joke when analyzing lethality. Expansion is the one factor that is lent more credence than it should be in the realm of killing. It is for the most part a safety issue. And one which does not affect my way of thinking for the scenarious I envision where I might stop my car and get out. If you stop, or your vehicle is stopped for you, in a situation where you could use a long gun and not fear jail, we are in different realm at that point. But let's not sidetrack, that is a whole different thread.
The second part of your initial reasoning that ballistics are also better from a rifle caliber pistol, does not bear out in my experience.
And that is the way of so many things with firearms. The way things are "supposed" to work, ie ballistics as read about on forums and in magazines, trajectories approached mathematically, theories of optics alignment, and what should happen when projectile contacts flesh and bone, have little to do with what happens in reality. There are too many variables. Range work and academia can only show you part of the picture.
Rifle caliber pistols suck for just about every vehicle scenario I can imagine for myself. Doesn't mean I am gonna say they are pointless. LOL! But I think I understand the motivation for want the PCC guys to explain their thought process.
Besides, if there was a one size fits all answer, we'd all certainly know about it by now.
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Now, don't get me wrong, if for some reason I am forced to choose only between a 16" AR in 5.56 and 16" anything in 9mm, I will choose the AR in 5.56 every time. Much like I feel the "usefulness" of 5.56 in shorter barrels is a diminishing returns situation, I feel the same about pistol calibers in longer barrels.
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All of that typing, and this is the one little snippet I want some more info on.
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I'm interested in hearing more about these mp5s that were sold.
I envision a slightly different scenario. I envision one where I am at a public place with my family and several armed people create a situation where my family is at risk and a handgun may be a worse option than just doing nothing and praying for the police. Assuming I can get to my vehicle or am already at my vehicle and it doesn't involve me leaving my family or drawing attention to myself or them, then from there any engagement to me is likely going to be 10 to 20 yards max. I think I'm best served with something I can quickly and discreetly deploy and hopefully get off 3 to 4 shots, eliminating 2 of the bad guys before the others know what's happening.
Either way, I've appreciated almost all of the discussion in this thread. Except Dry calling my AR9 "cute".
Either way, I've appreciated almost all of the discussion in this thread. Except Dry calling my AR9 "cute".
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thrillhill
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All of that typing, and this is the one little snippet I want some more info on.
You tryin to say I talk/type too much or not enough? LOL!
I have a cousin who fancies himself a machining/gunsmith "hobbyist". The barrel in question was on a heavily modified Contender pistol. It was obnoxious and silly. It was a handgun he had inherited, and the shame of it all was the modifications he made to the forearm. Bit of a waste.
Seems to me a lot of this is personal preference as most things are. I would go with the 556 pistol because thats what I've got. It will, like an PCC shoot through my windshield if needed and function just fine. I figure that if the need arises you won't care about the blast difference inside a vehicle because they're both going to be obnoxiously loud in a closed vessel. Penetration wise into two legged targets I think they'd be close to the same judging by the test on ballistics gel I've seen the 556 may go an inch or 2 further but at the point you have to engage someone I don't see myself worrying about it that much ( yes I know I'm responsible for every round fired from my weapon) . I can see the engagement distances not being much over 50m especially if I'm in my vehicle because I'm going to try and flee if I can and engage as a last resort. I have a 10.5" Ar pistol in 556 In Nc I see this as a better choice for me than an SBR or a PCC rifle because your not supposed to have a rifle concealed or loaded in your reach inside a vehicle. By carrying an Ar pistol in either a pistol caliber or rifle caliber and having a CHP you can have it loaded and concealed in reach of you in the vehicle.
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thrillhill
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7.62x51 ball went through on the first hit if you aim at the middle instead of the ends. Only penetrated one side.
5.56 (55 grain back then) and 7.62x39 did not.
Neither did 30-06 or .270 with hunting loads.
thrillhill
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Yep. You're probably right.
I fired a .44 Mag from the seat of my truck one time. It was a longer barreled Model 29. The 8 and 3/8" barrel or whatever it was that was over 8". My drivers side window was completely down. Passenger side was completely up. Not an extended cab. No ear pro.
It hurt.
And I'm not saying that incident was the cause, lord knows I have certainly earned my tinnitus, but tinnitus I have.
From all I read it is the truth. 200 grains, subsonic, reliable out of an 8" barrel in the AR platform. Winner.
I've seen a handgun in 600 Nitro Express...
I don't know what's a pistol and what's a rifle caliber anymore.
I think what you have to consider is energy on target.
I think too many people get caught up in caliber size vs other advanced ballistic charistics of ammo.
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drypowder
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It gets a good bit longer if you know how to pull it the right way.That thing is a total chick magnet, like puppies and toddlers.
Cameronswmp9
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This, and the crossover of platforms doesnt help any. Like the 50 BMG revolver. Really?
A 300BLK would be a solid performer with a big pill going to fix the stupid game disease.
I am building a 10.5 5.56 pistol, will build more and change them up, but I do think a 300BLK would be a great choice to fill the truck gun role.
How can you not like it?That thing is a total chick magnet, like puppies and toddlers.
It's like a Pomsky!
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It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it.
Somebody lied to you!
