Primary Arms upcoming line

Discussion in 'Optics Talk' started by MadMardigan, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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  2. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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    8C169FE7-68BA-429B-8632-7A66A6B23F70.jpeg

    Here are the 2 reticle I’m most interested in for the 3-18x
     
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  3. Zbizzle911

    Zbizzle911 Charter Freedom Lover Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Wow those are busy lol I have never shot over 400 yds so I don't know if these are needed just look busy to me.
     
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  4. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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    Holdover for wind and distance if you know your dope for mils.
     
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  5. BowWow

    BowWow Happy to be here

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    ………..if shootin' at longer ranges where the target gets kinda small...…. I dunno If I could see the target with all that reticle......or if I could count the mils depending on how small the reticle is.

    I'd have to look through that for sure.
     
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  6. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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    Close up of a video
     
  7. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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    4CA5BC6A-6247-4798-9F01-949F313149B1.png

    Not as bad as you think
     
  8. CHRIS_WNC

    CHRIS_WNC Member

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    I traded for an older FFP R-Grid scope a while back. I love the hold overs on the grid but don't like the Circle/Chevron part in the center. The BPR MIL looks like it would be better for me.

    CHRIS
     
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  9. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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    What I am thinking too
     
  10. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    I wish they would ditch that dang donut thing. Man I hate it. It's what has kept me from even considering any of there scopes. Especially when it lights up and washes everything else out.
    But they make a competitive product for a competitive price. I just hate their overly busy reticles. Give me crosshairs and an illuminated dot. And mill hatches or bdc hashes.

    But this is only as they relate to LPVO. I can see a need possibly for these type of scopes, but I still don't understand why anybody would want a donut on it! Give yer donut a rest PA!
     
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  11. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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    The Athena did drop it.
     
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  12. Michael Branson

    Michael Branson New Member

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    Hey everybody, we spotted this thread down here in Houston at PA, so I fired up an account to start chatting with ya'll. If you guys have any questions about Primary Arms optics products, existing or upcoming, ping me here or email mbranson@primaryarms.com. The upcoming 3-18x50 precision scope will actually have no fewer than SIX reticles available, all optimized for long range precision. We have simple reticles available in multiple optics lines. In the 1-6x low power variable optics we have the KISS reticle which is essentially a big illuminated chevron and not much else. We like chevrons a lot, they can be pretty big to draw the eye really fast, but using the tip for precision gives you an infinitely small point of aim that never obscures the part of the target you want to hit. A center dot or crosshair, even if it's super fine and hard to see, still covers up the thing you are aiming at to a certain extent.

    We also offer traditional mil-dot reticles in the 4-14x44 FFP scopes as well as a very precise ARC-2 MOA reticle mated to 0.25 MOA clicks. Pretty simple but undeniably useful if you don't mind running math (or you never shoot at enough distance to care about the math anyway).

    NKD doesn't like the "dang donut thing" we call the horseshoe but we find it very useful for FFP applications. For example, in our 1-6x FFP Raptor scope the horseshoe shrinks down to be almost the size of a red dot at 1x, but it can still be seen and used really easily. Then at 6x, it grows to surround the fine reticle details like BDC and wind hold dots. Without the horseshoe there, you wouldn't be able to find the reticle at 1x very quickly at all, which is the whole point of a 1-6x scope. There are some other manufacturers that suffer from this issue, they put fine reticles in their 1-6x scopes for good accuracy, but at 1x you can hardly see them at all, especially with illumination off. As a bonus, in the Raptor setup for example, the outer edges of the horseshoe serve as moving target leads for a target moving at 8.6 mph, and since it's an FFP configuration, that moving target lead will work at any magnification. So, the dang donut thing serves a purpose, but we also understand that not everyone cares about the benefits that it offers. That's why we have a bunch of patents and dozens of reticles available!
     
  13. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    Welcome to the forum.

    Yeah, I don't like the donut (doesn't really look like a horseshoe to me), and I'm certainly not the only one. I hate the chevrons, too. Maybe on a 1st focal plane optic (you certainly didn't invent this concept as it has been done by others for years), but most of your optics I have seen them on are in fact 2nd focal plane. I have no need for a 1st focal plane LPVO, personally. And, don't get me started on the "KISS" reticle!
    In fact, almost no one I know uses a donut or chevron for 3gun on a LPVO second focal plane optic. Some do and that's fine. But most prefer crosshairs with a illuminated center dot. Like the Vortex Razor scopes (JERRY MICULEK). And their PST scopes, as well as Steiner, Swarovski, Cmore (TODD JARRET), and many many others. Also, it bleeds too much light into the optic, imo. Only the center dot needs illumination. The donut just obscures the targets, especially when lit.

    And, as you note, on some first focal plane scopes they work well for the reason you mention, but of course most of your LPVO are second focal plane. The 1-6x24 seems to be the one I have seen most. So, the dang donut thing offers zero "benefits" to me, and many other practical shooters. I am certainly not the only one with this opinion. (EDIT: I feel the same way about the Vortex Strike Eagle and that stupid Burris clunky Tac reticle, for the record).

    All the top scopes I've seen for practical shooting have relatively fine crosshairs and an illuminated center dot. Some exceptions include Burris, some Leupold, and PA. The 1x8 Triji has a similar reticle, but done better, imo. Haven't seen anybody use a chevron. And, while I am no expert at precision shooting, I have never seen a high end precision optic with a donut or a chevron. They all have fine crosshair of some sort. I am sure they are out there, but by no means a standard of the industry.

    Also, the chevron will in fact cover your target as soon as the bullets drops below it which is anything beyond 200 yards with a 200 yard zero. Even worse with a 100 yard zero. Because it is large. Some like it, but I don't. Never have a problem with fine crosshairs obscuring targets. If it was a problem, nobody would use them, and tons of people use them. MOST people use them.

    Again, I am no expert, and my opinions are geared to the type of shooting I do, which is multigun and practical shooting. Don't mean to shit on your products, and I feel they are decent products for the money, after all you have "a bunch of patents"!
    But, since you joined my local forum, of which I am a paying member and have many friends I shoot with, just to call me out, I feel compelled to give my honest opinions. You don't have to like it or agree. Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  14. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    I totally read it differently than a "call out". I am actually impressed that they took the time to come here and address the concern personally.

    I personally like the chevrons, but my use isn't anything like yours and is mainly "because its cool", which is a perfectly valid reason as well. I do appreciate your explanation as well as his. Both make sense.
     
  15. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    I like the chevrons, not a fan of the horseshoe/circle thingy.
     
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  16. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    I could see the horseshoe/circle thingy not being liked for long distance work. For up close I like it because it draws my eye in quicker when I am shooting fast and up close with a lot of transitions.
     
  17. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    Maybe I misread it. But I am feel fairly confident if it was a bunch of glowing reviews, we wouldn't be seeing him. He did use my screen name.

    Indeed, there are a lot of opinions on reticles and optics, and that is what they are: opinions. None are right or wrong. Just preferences. I prefer different and am prepared to say why.
     
  18. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    No doubt bud. I think PA has a history of being active on forums, so I think its a good thing to have their ear here now. I say let them have it with as much positive AND negative feedback as possible. I am a professed PA fanboy, but they wont continue to get better and put out better products without people like you and other users handing them their tails once in a while with a dose of opinion.
     
  19. Michael Branson

    Michael Branson New Member

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    I read your first response and honestly I loved it. I'm a marketing guy, it's my job to understand the market, what real shooters are seeing, what they are using, and it's my job to present them with the advantages of our system. If they don't like our system, if they don't see the advantages or don't value those advantages, I want to know why. That's how I learn. An echo chamber of fan boys all sitting around the table patting each other on the shoulder for being oh so cool is not how I want to run a marketing department.

    And hey, at least you took the time to give me a passionate, honest response. Guys like you have high standards and expectations. I bet you don't go talking to the NC Star guys about why their reticles suck-- why bother? Your post shows that you want us to meet your expectations and the fact you wrote it means you think we CAN if we apply ourselves.

    If you ever find yourself in Houston, I'd like you to ping me at mbranson@primaryarms.com. We can snag lunch and I'll give you the nickel tour of the facility, have you meet some of the crew and show you around, if you'd like.
     
  20. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    I would love to see it. And, lunch would be on me!

    Also, on a positive, I shop your website frequently and think you guys do a great job with it. Cheers, D.
     
  21. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

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    You two gonna get a room? :p
     
  22. 11B CIB

    11B CIB IG: HandloadsAndHoldovers Staff Member Charter Member

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    Those little dots would be nice for holding over a distant target


    @Michael Branson Id love to T&E an ACSS 1.5 or 2x ACOG...you know...for the people. :D Doing the same for some other parts for another large company as we speak.
     
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  23. YeeHaa

    YeeHaa Member Charter Life Member

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    Before I knew better, years ago I tried, but it was the whole damn scope.
    I finally put it out of my misery , shared the pic with them and didn't bother with them anymore.


    NC 1a.jpeg

    Same with another company offering "Optics(?)"

    Aim scope 4.jpg

    Several times I seriously looked at purchasing PA Optics and was not convinced enough , at the time, because of PA's 1 & 3 yr Warranty.

    Over the years of NOT having disposable income to purchase "High or Higher End" optics I started using UTG glass.

    I've had several conversations with UTG personal addressing Reticles and Reticle use.

    Leaper's product served my needs and then discovered their 2-16x44 MOA-MOA Etched Reticle scope.

    They also ( contrary to popular belief ) stand behind their product as over the years I have had a few failures ~ mechanical issues and UTG has Taken Care of me, No Problem.
    No , I don't work for UTG.

    I will say that PA has come a long way FAST with your optics offerings. I also applaud PA in that you guys are introducing new Reticles for the different uses, etc.

    Frankly, I feel that optic companies that hardly ever offered different Reticles suffered because they keep sticking with traditional hunting style reticles, like Burris, Vortex.


    It's possible in the future I will purchase a PA Optic, however currently bout 80% of my glass sports the "UTG" Logo.

    I've been at the rage and fellow shooters ( Redfeild, Nightforce, Nikon, Leupold )have looked through the 2-16x44 and were sincerely impressed until they seen the "UTG" Logo.
    BTW, FWIW, most of my Bang Sticks will Destroy most or the vast majority of scopes on the market, including scopes that cost way north of 5 ~ 800 dollars.

    UTG, UMOA
    UMOA Reticle.png

    Anyway, whether I purchase a PA Optic or not, you guys (PA) keep the the good work and develop new features as it does help the sport as a whole.
    After all, "It's still America, for a Little while longer."

    Safe Shooting
     
  24. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    Only if you join us Big Boy.
     
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  25. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Not to get all mushy or "get a room" level of appreciation, but responses like this are a good part of why I always push people towards Primary Arms optics.
     
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  26. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Antagonist

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    It’s also cool to get feedback and to give it directly to the company. I’ve talked to him on ARF.
     
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  27. YeeHaa

    YeeHaa Member Charter Life Member

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    Personally I really like PA and they have come a Long Way FAST.
    I also like PSA , Brownells, Midway, and there are more.
    All these companies offer something different to us end users.

    I am not taking the above quote personal, even remotely
    I do not and am not pushing people towards UTG glass any more that I would push people to Primary Arms Glass.

    In the price point of "Low Budget" to "Moderate Budget" optics, below are some FACTs;


    I really like the following PA scope and did not purchase it because of the 3 year warranty.
    Two other factors were the total adjustment and being FFP. But, the warranty killed it for me.


    Primary Arms 4-14X44mm FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS HUD DMR .308 / .223 Reticle $279.99
    3-year warranty

    Total Elevation Adjustment 17.4 MIL
    Total Windage Adjustment 17.4 MIL

    So if 17.1 mil x 3.6" = 61.56 MOA, that's about 20 MOA less than UTG. Of course it only matters if one plans on using this feature.



    http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-...pe-acss-hud-dmr-308-223-reticle-pa4-14xffp308



    Two close product examples below in which PA's 1 year warranty kills purchasing any optics in their price point for me.
    Also, while reticles are subjective, for me the UTG has a better ~ more functional reticle, your mileage may and will vary.


    UTG 4-16X44 30mm Compact Scope, AO, 36-color Glass Mil-dot $164.97


    Total Elevation Adjustment 80 MOA
    Total Windage Adjustment 80 MOA As I don't believe it's advertised, years ago I called and asked about total adjustment.

    The Best Never Rest Warranty - Lifetime

    Leapers, Inc. warrants that all UTG & UTG PRO products conform to published specifications and are free from defects in material and workmanship. We will repair or replace defective products for the duration of the product's life span. Our dedicated in-house customer service professionals will provide the best-in-class UTG experience.



    36 COLOR IE 9 DOT ETCHED GLASS MIL-DOT.jpg
    [​IMG]

    https://www.amazon.com/UTG-4-16X44-Compact-36-color-Mil-dot/dp/B01A90NQOM




    Primary Arms 4-16X44mm SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated Mil-Dot Reticle $159.99

    I've been told this scope has an "Etched Reticle", which if it does is a solid plus in my book.

    comes with a 1-year warranty

    Total Elevation Adjustment 30 MOA
    Total Windage Adjustment 30 MOA

    PA416X_17.jpg

    [​IMG]
    http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-4-16x44-illuminated-mil-dot-scope-pa416x


    Also, while NOT discussed here ~ or about Never, a pet peeve of mine is, the eye ~ ocular piece having any movement especially with a SFP scope.
    I've found several brands that have movement and it should be TIGHT.
    I mean the tighter the better til you almost need a Mini-Pipe Wrench to make an adjustment.
    This also holds true for some "Higher End" ( 4 ~ 7 bucks ) scopes that I have or USED to have.
    What am I referring to? With your optic held firm , look through it and try to move, not force, ( NOT Turn) the eye piece. If it moves with moderate or Light force you will witness your POA Shift and if it does I would encourge you to explore a method to keep it STILL.



    Safe Shooting
     
  28. Michael Branson

    Michael Branson New Member

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    Our newer products all feature a lifetime warranty, the products posted above are older legacy products which may be approaching the end of their life cycle. We switched to the lifetime warranty after feedback from forums and customers who were consistently choosing Vortex over us based solely on the warranty.

    As far as the ocular not moving, pretty much all of the optics we've released in the past three years come with flip caps included. These do a pretty good job of helping keep the ocular in place, or at least provide an easy reference point to correct it if it gets turned. In the user manuals we also write that some folks will wrap their ocular with electrical tape underneath the flip caps, or make witness marks with a dab of paint or fingernail polish, so if the ocular gets accidentally turned later they can easily return it to the position that's correct for their eyes.
     
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  29. YeeHaa

    YeeHaa Member Charter Life Member

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    OK

    I was trying to compare Apples to Apples.
    I have never purchased a Vortex ( don't care for their reticle~s) , however every optic I own has a "Life Time Warranty."


    I believe I got you confused ( and others ) regarding an ocular being "LOOSE."
    I'm not referring to rotating it for adjustment, but rather the piece wobbling , moving Left, Right, Up , or Down.
    Nothing like sending 180 grains down range and find out your POA has changed because the recoil is rocking the damn eye piece.

    With all the variables involved with firearms , this wobble condition ( if in fact a scope suffers from it ) , is the easiest to Identify and also one of the least understood and or ,, Just Overlooked.


    An example, ( much more if one wants to Google).

    POI change with reticle focus adjustment ?

    I have seen this before with a el cheapo scope. I just got my $900 Vortex scope and you can see the reticle move 2 MOA while lightly pushing up down, right left..... on the eye piece. It does seem to self center back, but really, I do not want 1/4 MOA change in my zero.
    What are your experience with wiggling the focus eye piece? Have you tried it ?
    My Leupold VariX-iii has a locking nut on the eyepiece to lock it in place.
    I have no plan to focus the reticle often, but it's ability to shift worries me.

    http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/poi-change-with-reticle-focus-adjustment.3807796/


    Safe Shooting
     
  30. Michael Branson

    Michael Branson New Member

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    Oh! If one of ours is loose in the way you describe, then the technical term we use for that condition is "totally busted". And you'll want to email info@primaryarms.com and get our customer service team looking at a repair or replacement for you. Our optics, even the lowest entry-level budget ones, should not wobble that way at all, ever.
     
  31. Prudii

    Prudii Member

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    I really wish they would make more fixed power prism scopes with regular reticles.

    I'd be all over a 5x or 3x prism with a acog base and a simple reticle.
     
  32. Michael Branson

    Michael Branson New Member

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    Guys on AR15.com have said the same thing, and I've passed it on to the engineering team here. The next generation of prism scopes is gonna be OMG amazing, and I would like to see something like our KISS reticle, just a big honkin' red chevron, and nothing else, in that application.
     
  33. Prudii

    Prudii Member

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    Ehh. I like the KISS more than the ACSS. If it has thr same form and size of your current line up with thr acog base that would be pretty good.
     
  34. Pink_Vapor

    Pink_Vapor Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I purchased a PA Advanced Micro Dot, shortly thereafter they informed me it had the incorrect LED and wasn't NV compatible, when the parts arrive they'll correct it.
    I dropped it in my mailbox last Saturday, it arrived without any tool markings on Thursday.
    Excellent customer service and stupid fast considering USPS to and from TX!
     
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  35. Prudii

    Prudii Member

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    And here i sit going on week five of waiting for Leopold to fix a defective sight.

    The only thing better than an unlimited warranty is a company that will actually fix or replace things in a timely manner.
     
  36. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    I'm so old I remember when a fixed 4 power was the "cat's meow". I will never have a need for any of the scopes written about in this post BUT I absolutely enjoyed reading every post. Good stuff!
     
  37. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    We [B&M RIFLES] sold 40+ Leopold scopes in 24 hours. There was never a week we didn't have 3 or more in transit to be worked on. We replaced all with Nikons and now 3 years later not a single breakage. 50 caliber rifles tear stuff up..In one year of experimenting we shot up 8,000+ magnum rifle primers.
     
  38. RFMan

    RFMan Member Life Member

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    I have two of their scopes and one of their red dots. I haven’t beat the crap out of them, and probably won’t try :)
     

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