Questions about selling a firearm

Discussion in 'Firearms News and Views' started by Stephen Chu, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    I am going to take a different road here than most people in this group. There is nothing that I want to sell or buy that would be life or death to me. I can walk away from pretty much any deal. If I were going to sell any of my firearms, I would do a bill of sell and I would keep the PPP (it's only good for one gun) or I would record the buyer's CHP number. I would make this clear up front and if no one wanted to buy, I could care less.
     
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  2. R1E45

    R1E45 Member

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    Last two deals were done in Walmart parking lot and a McDonalds parking lot.
     
  3. cubrock

    cubrock Swell guy Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    De nada. :)
     
  4. Catfish

    Catfish I *AM* smiling! Charter Member Supporting Member

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    That’s good that you don’t care, but you will find a lot of people on here who do care, a lot, and will stop reading your ad when they see BOS. Do what you want but be clear up front. Don't spring that on a person at a meetup.
     
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  5. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    You aren’t alone, there is a sizable minority that are ignorant and scared, they tend to require extra-legal stuff. Your gun, your foibles, and I’m glad to see that you’ll at least be upfront about it, that way nobody gets upset.
     
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  6. Combat Diver

    Combat Diver Active Member

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    Sold/bought guns all over the state, country and outside US over the years depending where I lived at the time. Always go by laws. Here in NC, you just need to see a PPP/CHP or FFL. Bill of sale is not required but people do it for piece of mind. NC is grey on the area of FFLs to include Type 03 C&R. If the gun is over 50 yrs old or on curio list can be mailed in or out of state to 03. If you sale outside of your state then you need to go thru a FFL for the transfer of a handgun.

    CD
     
  7. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    I usually sell mine the way the former POSTUS recommended: by the vanload in Chicago or Baltimore. And that's just the Hi Points. For the Jimenez ones, I sell them from a backpage ad online.

    Oh you mean LEGITIMATE sales. Yeah, I only sell to friends.
     
  8. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    I am neither ignorant or scared and there is no reason to be rude.
     
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  9. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    My last sentence said I would make that clear up front
     
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  10. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Not intended to be rude, your description of yourself was very clear.
     
  11. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    I sounded ignorant and scared to you?
     
  12. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Yes. It isn’t perfectly clear what you are afraid of, but you are afraid of something, and you will require lots of extra-legal stuff to mitigate your fears when those things actually don’t accomplish anything.
     
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  13. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    I have dealt with contracts in my work for many years and have saved the day for my company more than once by being very thorough. I would not call that being scared, I would call it covering my bases. In my experience, it has accomplished something. At the beginning of my post I stated that I was going down a different road than most would do on here. I do not expect you or the majority of members to agree with me.
     
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  14. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Yes.
    That's ignorance. The law doesn't specifically mention this one way or another. Roy Cooper gave an opinion on it, but no real clear ruling has been decided either way.

    That's "scared." I wouldn't call it that, that's your words. "Cover your ass," "all due caution," nicer ways of saying that you fear consequences of a sale, and provide extra legal hurdles for private citizens beyond what is required.
    I think it's silly, but hey, it's your gun. Some guys like to put Hello Kitty stickers on their guns, I don't judge.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  15. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    Well, this conversation is going south and I have no desire to start name calling. Maybe we can agree to disagree and call it a night
     
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  16. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Hey, you're the one taking everything personal. You asked a question, you received an answer. I at least tried to make an absurd statement to lighten the answer.

    Now I kinda wanna make a Care Bears Mosin, just to see what people say when they see it.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Not saying that you aren’t smart and capable, in fact I have no doubt that you’re more than sufficiently intelligent to understand the relevant law and case law as well as the investigative processes. I don’t think that you’ve spent the time figuring it out because you accept an alternative which is sufficient for your purposes. That is fine, it is your right as the seller to do as you wish.

    There a great many things about which I am ignorant, and more than a few things that scare me, this is true of us all.
     
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  18. Sas quatch

    Sas quatch Happy to be here

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    It sounds offensive to me as well. As others have stated, I don't need to sell any guns. But, I do keep records of my firearms, where I bought them and where I disposed of them. If I don't know you, I'll have a bill of sale with your name on it, the serial number of the gun. I'll even give you a copy of the bill of sale. I'm not scared nor ignorant, just thorough- no legal mumbo-jumbo at all. I on the other hand, don't like when people require a CHP for long gun purchases. I intentionally don't have one, because I don't want to be treated like a criminal having records and fingerprints to exercise my right to firearms.
     
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  19. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Why are you thorough?
     
  20. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    Jim, now that the tone has settled down a bit, I would like to ask you a sincere question that I am curious about. I was a Controller for one of the largest Mechanical Contractors in Florida for many years. I was also the contract negotiator. Large Commercial and Industrial Construction is a dog eat dog vicious business. Miss something in a contract and there goes your profits. As an accountant, there has to be a paper trail for everything. Money crossing hands without a paper trail....not going to happen. I find that hard to leave at the office at the end of the day, so it carries over to my personal life. I find it easier for me to cover all my bases or to run a little scared when it comes to money changing hands. So that may help you understand me a little better. Now to my question....why would anyone buying or selling a firearm for legal purposes, object to a bill of sale? Is it that they think they might end up on a confiscation list or what? I am not trying to be smart here, I am just turning the question around and asking why a bill of sale would scare off (as an earlier poster put it) any buyers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  21. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    1.) As was mentioned above with the idea of CHP for long guns, it rubs a lot of people as being assumed to be a criminal.

    2.) There was a TV show called Person of Interest, which was about pervasive surveillance. One of the quotes was along the lines of, "I created social media, so that people would do the work of spying on themselves for me." Paper trails are a great tool for confiscations, and why would the government need to force registration when the people do all the work for them? I have no desire to help the government out in that area, do you?

    3.) A lot of people here don't object to the name and serial number, so much as people who take pictures of personally identifiable information. @MuShu Gordon signed a Bill of Sale with his drivers license, and got a call from the sheriff a few months later. Someone had used that to forge his ID. You'd be surprised at the number of people that say BOS, but mean "BOS and pictures of your ID." It comes down to privacy as well. A lot of people here are in security, be it physical security, or tech security, and they area squirrelly about having their privacy unmasked.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  22. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    1) I can understand why that might upset people

    2) No, I do not want to help the government in that area. However, if the government or police are tearing my house apart looking for paper trails on any guns I may have bought or sold, we are already in a bad state of affairs.

    3) I would not allow anyone to copy my DL for a sale of any kind. We have enough identity theft going on already.
     
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  23. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Sorry about the earlier tone, this is a road well traveled and for whatever reason I get sucked into it a lot. I need to go for a hike right now, but will respond with additional details this evening.
     
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  24. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    No problem, Jim, it happens to all of us one time or another. Looking forward to you response tonight
     
  25. MuShu Gordon

    MuShu Gordon Member

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    Sure did, I had just turned 21, got concealed carry permit, and wanted to purchase a revolver off of a gentleman. We met in Lexington near where the flea market takes place down there. He made a color copy of my DL, I signed a BoS, copy of my Concealed Carry Permit, and even wrote my phone number down for him. He then left this paperwork in a company vehicle, someone else drove the truck, found my paperwork and tried to purchase a pistol at a pawn shop with it. The shop had the sense to figure something was wrong, they called the cops, then I got a phone call from a detective about it since my cell number was on the paper they confiscated/found/something. I will NEVER, EVER allow anyone to make a copy of anything of mine unless you're a retail business holding an FFL. I won't sign a bill of sale, I likely won't even tell you my real name unless you need to mail me a check. When people online call me by my real name I normally correct them quickly. I'm damn near paranoid now about that stuff to be honest. Never again, never, ever, again.
     
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  26. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    To answer this can we first explore why the seller wants a bill of sale? In my experience the seller is concerned about events following the sale, for example the gun is recovered at a crime scene and traced back to him. In this situation the seller is afraid that if he can not prove to the police who they sold the gun to that they will be subjected to an uncomfortable and/or expensive experience. The bill of sale would seem to resolve this concern, but it does not.

    Consider the worst case scenario, and I've spoken to someone that this happened to. You sell a gun to someone and sometime later the FBI knocks on your door and tells you that a gun that you owned was recovered at the scene of a crime. For simplicity let's just assume a domestic mass shooting. The officer is knocking at your door. When you open the door he will either place you under arrest if there is credible evidence that you committed the murders or he will ask if you own the gun. You weren't involved, so all that's happening is a friendly, if nerve-wracking, conversation. The conversation goes one of two ways, in both cases the seller tells the truth.

    If I was the seller I say that I have owned such a gun, if I remember that specific gun I say that I did own it. He asks if I still have it and I reply that I sold it. He asks who I sold it to and if I remember I tell him. I'm not as vigorously anti-government as some, I want the killer to be caught, so I'm sincerely helpful. Maybe he asks if I knew that I'd sold it to a felon, to which I respond that I always ask if they are a felon or otherwise prohibited from purchasing or owning a firearm and then I check their ID to ensure that they are a resident of NC and if it was a pistol I check their PPP or CHP to their drivers license and confirm their age. It's also possible that I sold it to someone from another state, in which case I shipped it to an FFL who would have delivered it to the buyer. Even if I can't tell him who I sold it to I tell him that I always follow that process. The officer may choose not to believe me, but he has no evidence that I have broken the law. The conversation ends amicably.

    The scenario plays out almost exactly the same if the seller has a bill of sale. To the officer the bill of sale is just a piece of paper with some writing on it, it is not conclusive evidence that the sale actually took place, that the buyer is the name on the piece of paper, or that the seller attempted to determine if the buyer was prohibited and that the seller made a reasonable effort to verify the identity of the buyer. It is a piece of paper that the seller could have created 10 minutes ago, there is no way for the officer to know if it is what the seller claims. The lawful seller says exactly what I said above, assuming that he uses a similar process, and provides the bill of sale. As above, the officer has no evidence that the seller has broken the law and the conversation ends amicably.

    This is the worst case scenario, and it plays out the same with or without the bill of sale, which brings us back to your question. Many buyers are offended by government overreach and the actions of citizens that grant to the government more power than they believe wise. These aren't criminals afraid that their illegal activities will be discovered, they are law abiding citizens sincerely concerned about the future of our society as they watch it become more Orwellian with each passing year. The extra-legal step of preparing a bill of sale and doing things like taking pictures of the buyer's ID or the license plate of his car offends these buyers because they serve no legal purpose, they imply that the seller is actively seeking to be an agent of the government (ie capturing data as if they were an FFL required to collect and maintain such information), and they expose the buyer to additional risk of crimes like identity theft as has been discussed above.

    A great many sellers that want a bill of sale believe that the piece of paper protects them, and they believe that with a religious fervor with few supporting facts. A great many freedom loving buyers only want to do what the law requires and are offended by the inability or unwillingness of the seller to understand that what they are asking for doesn't accomplish what they think it accomplishes. Put it all on the internet and you might as well ask if 9mm or 45acp is a better man-stopper or if a 1991, Glock or CZ is the best handgun.

    BTW, going back to the guy I spoke to, the conversation went exactly like the first above. He had no bill of sale, was as helpful as he was able, and had only a single conversation with the officer at his home. Nonetheless the experience traumatized him and now he requires a bill of sale and a copy of the drivers license...I can't explain it.

    It's been a long day, and I apologize for the long post. It is not intended to cover every possible scenario, but if you put some thought into why you think a seller would want a bill of sale I think that you'll realize that the document really has no value in any scenario.
     
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  27. Jaysq

    Jaysq Against The Wind

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    Thank you for the time you put into this post. I truly appreciate it. Now I think we both appreciate each other's views on the subject. I also see this subject come up quite often and it is always the same range of views. I guess that will never change. Have a great day.
     

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