SBR process

Gear Head

Gear Head

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How does it differ from a form 4? @TARHEELSTATE has my stuff on file from suppressor purchases, what else is needed to submit a form 1 for an SBR? I read somewhere you have to declare a specific caliber.. how does that work when swapping uppers like everyone talks about?
 
Scott offers a Form 1 service as well for a fee...so he can print photos and fingerprints for you.

Or, you can do it yourself. You can print 6 photos for the cost of one 4x6 at Walmart or a drug store, or print them at home. Lots of people use standard paper. You can get FD-258LE fingerprint cards from the ATF for free, and buy a Sirchie ink pad (and optional card holder) for not much...and roll your own whenever you feel like it.

You declare a single caliber, barrel length and overall length...because you can only "make" the firearm once. How you configure it after that instant doesn't matter.

There's a sticky here that explains it all, in case you haven't seen it.
 
BigWaylon said:
Scott offers a Form 1 service as well for a fee.

You declare a single caliber, barrel length and overall length...because you can only "make" the firearm once. How you configure it after that instant doesn't matter.
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I know he does and will use him to do it. I was just curious as to what is needed in addition to prints and pics or if it's simply rinse/repeat compared to a form 4 with just a few extra pieces of info.
 
Gear Head said:
I know he does and will use him to do it. I was just curious as to what is needed in addition to prints and pics or if it's simply rinse/repeat compared to a form 4 with just a few extra pieces of info.
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It's probably actually less info, as there's no FFL involved.

Same prints and photos. The SN, model, caliber, lengths, etc is all required for both F1 & F4...just formatted differently.

He'll walk you through whatever you need...or he'll call me and ask. :D

Print a Form 1 out and look at it. Fill it out in pencil following the guide I created to give you an idea of what to expect. Ask whatever questions you want in this thread.
 
I do have a question on the topic, not necessarily on the paperwork.

I just built a pistol lower today. I know that a pistol can be built into a rifle but not the other way around. If I have multiple uppers and an SBR lower, can I swap them back and forth between the pistol and SBR lowers? If the lower is considered the firearm and determines whether the gun is a rifle or pistol, the upper classification never changes correct?
 
Gear Head said:
I do have a question on the topic, not necessarily on the paperwork.

I just built a pistol lower today. I know that a pistol can be built into a rifle but not the other way around. If I have multiple uppers and an SBR lower, can I swap them back and forth between the pistol and SBR lowers? If the lower is considered the firearm and determines whether the gun is a rifle or pistol, the upper classification never changes correct?
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Are you asking if you can move an upper from a registered lower to a pistol lower and back? If so, no issue at all.

...and to add, your SBR is only an SBR when it's configured as such. If you put a long upper on it, or no upper, it's not an NFA firearm. You can cross state lines without a 5320.20, hunt where SBRs aren't allowed, and even sell it without any NFA paperwork....and without any notification to the ATF.
 
BigWaylon said:
Are you asking if you can move an upper from a registered lower to a pistol lower and back? If so, no issue at all.

...and to add, your SBR is only an SBR when it's configured as such. If you put a long upper on it, or no upper, it's not an NFA firearm. You can cross state lines without a 5320.20, hunt where SBRs aren't allowed, and even sell it without any NFA paperwork....and without any notification to the ATF.
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Yes, that was what I was asking. Thought process being if I didn't have time to submit a 5320.20 I could swap back to pistol lower and be good to go; or be free to conceal and be covered by my CCP.
 
Gear Head said:
Yes, that was what I was asking. Thought process being if I didn't have time to submit a 5320.20 I could swap back to pistol lower and be good to go; or be free to conceal and be covered by my CCP.
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Yep. Moving uppers between pistol/rifle/SBR lowers isn't an issue.

Can't remember your whole story, but if you're new to the SBR world, go ahead and submit 5320.20 forms for places you may go. I submit them every fall for the entire next year. I've had approved forms for a couple months, for 11 firearms to go to 10 states for all of 2018.
 
BigWaylon said:
Yep. Moving uppers between pistol/rifle/SBR lowers isn't an issue.

Can't remember your whole story, but if you're new to the SBR world, go ahead and submit 5320.20 forms for places you may go. I submit them every fall for the entire next year. I've had approved forms for a couple months, for 11 firearms to go to 10 states for all of 2018.
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Yep I remember you said you just pick a random range in each state and file them all in advance. Are the wait times on form 1's any different than form 4's?
 
Gear Head said:
Are the wait times on form 1's any different than form 4's?
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Not different enough to matter. There's currently a big difference in entity vs individual, but not a noticeable one between F1 vs F4. But the whole process is out of whack. There are people still waiting on entity submissions from late 2016, while other entities have them back from mid-'17.
 
BigWaylon said:
Not different enough to matter. There's currently a big difference in entity vs individual, but not a noticeable one between F1 vs F4. But the whole process is out of whack. There are people still waiting on entity submissions from late 2016, while other entities have them back from mid-'17.
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I know it all seems to be a toss up. I have 2 individual form 4's in now, hoping I get lucky and come in under 6 months. Figured I'll be better off to go ahead and start the form 1 instead of waiting till my form 4's come back to do it and having to wait that much longer.
 
Gear Head said:
Another question, can I sbr a lower that has already been built? Or does it have to be a virgin lower?
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You can SBR any lower. Stripped or built. From a pistol or rifle.

Only limitation is you can't built an AR pistol from a lower that was made into a rifle first...which is not your question. :D
 
BigWaylon said:
You can SBR any lower. Stripped or built. From a pistol or rifle.

Only limitation is you can't built an AR pistol from a lower that was made into a rifle first...which is not your question. :D
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Gotcha so I can SBR a lower that is currently a rifle and continue to use it, just can't put a short barrel on it till my stamp comes back?
 
Gear Head said:
Gotcha so I can SBR a lower that is currently a rifle and continue to use it, just can't put a short barrel on it till my stamp comes back?
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Correct.
 
Spoke with Scott today and since I'm already on file with him he's gonna take care of me via phone/mail. Now the only question is SBR my billet fde noveske lower or black aero m4e1?? I can't decide on color schemes ugh :(
 
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For building a SBR, is that under a form 1? For an individual, what has to be engraved on the lower (I know trust info would be on there if there was a trust)?

Looking at building one for the wife, so making sure I have stuff in place for that is all.
 
Cameronswmp9 said:
For building a SBR, is that under a form 1? For an individual, what has to be engraved on the lower (I know trust info would be on there if there was a trust)?

Looking at building one for the wife, so making sure I have stuff in place for that is all.
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Form 1 is for making (not manufacturing) an NFA firearm. Form 4 is to transfer an existing one. Just as info, if you made it with an F1, and decided to sell it, that would be done with an F4.

You engrave the maker's name, whether that's an individual or an entity. You also engrave the city and state where you make the firearm. You'll need to engrave the caliber if the firearm isn't marked elsewhere (but the barrels often have the necessary marking).

The info can be on the frame, received, barrel or pistol slide (if applicable)...and there's no requirement for the different bits of info to be together, or even on the same part of the firearm.

There is no minimum font size for any of that engraving...only the serial number has a minimum size. All the markings must meet the minimum depth requirement of .003", which is about the thickness of a sheet of paper.

Here's an ATF Ruling that lays it out pretty clearly. It doesn't make new rules, just references the existing ones. (It does add "pistol slide" as an acceptable location, as handgun-based SBRs weren't very popular for the last ~80 years). https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2013-3-adopting-identification-firearms/download
 
Cameronswmp9 said:
Sounds like I need to practice with a Dremel. LOL

Thanks BW, good stuff as always!
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I've done two of mine with a Dremel. :eek:

There are several places you can engrave that are completely visible but few people would ever see it.
 
Why not build a "pistol" and avoid the feds, paperwork, fees. You can also cross state lines, easier resale, etc, etc.
I've done both, SBR is my avatar, and I just built the pistol, I spent the $200 fee on the Law hinge.
IMG_5349 - Copy.jpg IMG_5348 - Copy.jpg
 
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I did build it as a pistol but even though the ATF now says you can shoulder a brace, I find that it is not very comfortable to do so. And I've come to that conclusion and haven't even shot it yet lol.
 
Had a pistol. It was cool. They have their uses. But I SBR'd it and so glad I did.

Ideally, I would have a pistol lower, too. Might do that at some point with prices being so low. Probably wouldn't use it much but it would be a nice option.
 
NKD said:
Had a pistol. It was cool. They have their uses. But I SBR'd it and so glad I did.

Ideally, I would have a pistol lower, too. Might do that at some point with prices being so low. Probably wouldn't use it much but it would be a nice option.
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I think we're on the same page. Im going to SBR but I have no intentions in getting rid of my pistol lower.
 
concepthomes1 said:
What was the benny for SBR'ing your pistol?

With the current ATF understanding that the occasional shouldering of a pistol brace not being bad, I'm just not seeing the current benefit...
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Shooting rifle matches (huge for me, as I sell dang near anything I can't use in matches). Have three uppers for different style matches/divisions.
And, the stock I want. Haven't found a brace that I like.

If a guy just wanted a small gun for SHTF/home defense/range fun, etc. I would have a harder time answering that question!

Edit: also, I can now look down my nose at pistols! Hahaha
 
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concepthomes1 said:
What was the benny for SBR'ing your pistol?

With the current ATF understanding that the occasional shouldering of a pistol brace not being bad, I'm just not seeing the current benefit...
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Shoulder a brace then shoulder a stock, the benefit is immediately evident! Not to mention the ATF could always reverse their reversed reversal on shouldering/ban them/declare pistols with braces SBRs as they are functionally equivalent. Also being able to run an SBR in USPSA/other matches is a big reason.
 
Cameronswmp9 said:
Dumb question: you go through and get the stamp approved. Is it still not 'legal' until it's engraved?
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It's not an NFA item just because the stamp is approved. It's only an NFA item once you actually "make" it, and after that only when it's actually configured as one.

The statute doesn't specific a time frame as to when you have to engrave. Most do it before initial assembly. Some engrave before stamp is approved, some wait in case there's an issue.
 
Got my form 1 in the mail from tarheel today. Do I need to sign first middle and last? Or just first and last? I can't remember how I signed my form 4's.

My first middle and last is printed in the "name and title of authorized official" box beside where I sign. Making sure I get it right to avoid finding out I screwed up 6+ months from now...
 
Sign it just like it's written. If you sign your name properly, nobody should know what you're writing. My dad always taught me signatures are made to be recognized, not read. I could sign my shortened first name (Greg instead of Gregory) and last name...or I could sign full first, middle and last, and you'd probably not be able to tell the difference. :D
 
One more thing, on my form 1 for name and address of original manufacturer its printed as:

Aero Precision
Tacoma, WA

My receiver says:

Aero Precision LLC
Tacoma, WA

Is that going to be an issue? @TARHEELSTATE
 
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Shouldn't be.
 
I'll call Scott tomorrow to double check before I send it off. Making a mistake and getting delayed is my worst fear lol.
 
@BigWaylon just a heads up, in comparing the forms, it looks like they have been updated. I have a copy of a form 4 here, it does have transferee email and phone on there in section 3b and 3c. It is for a suppressor, but I don't think that makes a difference on the form. (I looked at the form 1 and compared to the 4, I think. 4 hours of sleep this week may be playing tricks on my eyes lol)

I need more fingerprints, I'm going to get a form 1 going for a SBR. Start getting the peices ready for it.
 
Cameronswmp9 said:
@BigWaylon just a heads up, in comparing the forms, it looks like they have been updated. I have a copy of a form 4 here, it does have transferee email and phone on there in section 3b and 3c. It is for a suppressor, but I don't think that makes a difference on the form. (I looked at the form 1 and compared to the 4, I think. 4 hours of sleep this week may be playing tricks on my eyes lol)
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I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to tell me.

The sticky I have with the guide to forms I have here mentions phone number and email for both F1 & F4. And you're correct in saying it doesn't matter what time of NFA Firearm. (It used to for some of the questions, with silencers and AOWs having slightly different rules)
 
BigWaylon said:
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to tell me.

The sticky I have with the guide to forms I have here mentions phone number and email for both F1 & F4. And you're correct in saying it doesn't matter what time of NFA Firearm. (It used to for some of the questions, with silencers and AOWs having slightly different rules)
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I reread it and it doesn't make any sense, and comparing it to what I was thinking I was wrong. My apologies, more sleep before posting next time lol.

Starting to fill out a F1 for the SBR this weekend. I don't know if you are a good influence or not, but I know my account doesn't like you right now lol!
 
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