School me on AR quality.

I will agree that for most people a PSA rifle is fine but there is a huge difference in the fit/feel/finish in a PSA and a top shelf rifle. The devil is in the details. Properly sized gas ports, barrel nuts that aren’t so tight they need a 4ft breaker bar or need to be cut off (I have seen this with a PSA rifle). It’s not their AR15 line but at Mid Carolina Saturday matches, the PSA AR9s fail like clockwork for all sorts of reasons. I’ve seen well over a dozen go down at that place.

If the quality level of a particular brand meets or surpasses your needs and it saves money over another model, I am all for the saved cash being free to spend on ammo, optics, etc but there IS a difference and slapping the word milspec on something doesn’t mean it’s going to be identical to another “milspec” something. Like Tommy Boy says “I can take a dump in a box and slap a guarantee on it and all you’ve got is a guaranteed piece of crap”

I agree with a lot of what is being said in this post!

My thought is that if we are being realistic 99% of AR15 owners in this country are never going to put their rifle through even match type conditions. They are going to take it out a few times a year fire 500 or so round in pristine conditions at targets under 200 yards and 99% of the rifles in their hands are going to be up to the task. More malfunctions I see with rifles and handguns are operator error vs equipment failure.
 
In a nutshell this is how I remember it being explained to me by someone in the gun industry.

For assembled rifles most of your higher end ARs will be assembled with a bit of fitting to assure everything is as good as it can be, rifles like PSA are assembled by people grabbing parts out of bins and torquing things to spec, cheaper rifles are assembled as quickly as possible and if it fits, it ships lol.

Now along with the above you have the quality of materials, quality of machine work and tolerance levels, you can have 3 lowers made with what is listed to be the same metals and forging process but most of the higher end companies will refine their parts to their specs.

So basically if you build your own AR with higher end components the extra cost is due to the higher quality materials, better machining and better tolerances than your average “mill-spec” parts but without the “custom-ish” assembly.

Once you start abusing the rifle and introduce it to “battlefield” abuse is when you’ll start to see the cheaper mass produced rifles failing at a higher rate.
 
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You guys with the Barnes and similar.. I wondering accuracy with them using wolf or xm193 compared to a PSA.
I know the ammo itself isn't that great, just wonder if the little more pricey barrel shoots it better

In theory, a higher quality barrel will shoot better than a lower quality barrel with any ammo, you are removing a possible issue from the equation. However, with that said I have seen high-quality barrels be pretty finicky when it comes to ammo. In my experience, better barrels on average will shoot better even with cheaper ammo. Think of it in these terms, your rifle is capable of shooting 2 MOA, ammo is capable of 2 MOA and the shooter is a 2 MOA shooter. If you shoot a group and each one of those factors performs to their outer most capabilities, your 100-yard shot group would be approxiamtley 6 MOA or 6 inches. So if you eliminate one of those factors your group should shrink. It's late and I just came in from work so not sure how coherent my reply will be lol.
 
Objectively they all work and are capable of better groups than I can shoot. I am the weak link in the chain not the rifle. I do find the PSA to be the sloppest of the guns I own. Its tolerances in the the build is not on par with the other guns. The Colt is a great AR and was built back when they were still on the top of their game IMHO but its heavy a bit clunky.

One thing about PSA is that they used to be mainly an assembler. They bought parts from lots of places and slapped them together into functioning rifles. These days they make more and more parts in house. As they have made this transition and the AR15 market bottomed out they have become sloppier ans sloppier. Even their non-blemished rifles have what other manufacturers would consider a blemish on them. They are not bad and still work for the most part but they are what they are. They also have horrible customer service. Some of the worst in the industry. For my $$$ paying a little more and getting a tighter rifle from a company that will answer the phone if there is an issue is worth it.

PSA bringing their stuff in house has resulted in better QA, not worse. And yes, they still offer the FN cold hammer forged CL barrels on their premium offerings. I'd like to see proof of 'tolerances' not measuring up vs a Colt or whatever people imagine is a superior rollstamp. Doing everything themselves is how they offer what they do at the price point they do. That is simple integrated logistics and manufacturing. It lowers costs, period.
My PA10 gen2 .308 AR is on par with Aero rifles that I have handled and shot, and superior to DPMS (which it copied) and group sizes reflect that even with run of the mill XM80 ammo.

If you want a custom AR, build a custom AR. If you want a milspec AR, then get one that conforms to milspec. Anything else is a rollstamp snobbery that does not bear out in the real world. Either one will benefit from a $100 trigger upgrade, and maybe a bit of tuning.

Also, to recieve excellent customer service from a mostly online company like PSA, you need to approach them online. I find I can reach the owner's brother Josiah by messaging him on ARFCOM in their vendor forum quite easily. Not sure how you can reach the upper echelon of Colt's management like that, but likely you would need more clout than just a forum membership.
 
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In theory, a higher quality barrel will shoot better than a lower quality barrel with any ammo, you are removing a possible issue from the equation. However, with that said I have seen high-quality barrels be pretty finicky when it comes to ammo. In my experience, better barrels on average will shoot better even with cheaper ammo. Think of it in these terms, your rifle is capable of shooting 2 MOA, ammo is capable of 2 MOA and the shooter is a 2 MOA shooter. If you shoot a group and each one of those factors performs to their outer most capabilities, your 100-yard shot group would be approxiamtley 6 MOA or 6 inches. So if you eliminate one of those factors your group should shrink. It's late and I just came in from work so not sure how coherent my reply will be lol.

Not only will match barrel have match chambers and be possibly more finickly with ammo.....if you have a 7lb milspec trigger it ain't gonna matter anyhow. Here's the best money spent on an AR:

take it completely apart, and true up the reciever face to the barrel extension. Use some loctite bearing assembly retaining compound (Loctite 620) on the barrel extension NOT the threads and bed it to the reciever.

Basically that $20 and a little time and specialized tools will net you a stiff bedded barrelled upper assembly that will shoot as well as you can. Without having to result to thermo-fitting like BCM and other higher-end manufacturers. Heating one up with a torch to assemble it seems a bit AK47-ish to me. Now.......to disassemble one bedded with LT620 you will need a heat gun ;)
 
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Go G36 since we cant get em here

Been down that road. The rifle was very finicky after grafting the receivers together. Trigger wouldn't reset 100% in cooler temps with the FBI trigger group I had. Wound up selling it shortly after it was completed.
 
Not only will match barrel have match chambers and be possibly more finickly with ammo.....if you have a 7lb milspec trigger it ain't gonna matter anyhow. Here's the best money spent on an AR:

take it completely apart, and true up the reciever face to the barrel extension. Use some loctite bearing assembly retaining compound (Loctite 620) on the barrel extension NOT the threads and bed it to the reciever.

Basically that $20 and a little time and specialized tools will net you a stiff bedded barrelled upper assembly that will shoot as well as you can. Without having to result to thermo-fitting like BCM and other higher-end manufacturers. Heating one up with a torch to assemble it seems a bit AK47-ish to me. Now.......to disassemble one bedded with LT620 you will need a heat gun ;)

Although AverageJoe didn't make any mention of "match barrels" or "match chambers" (he said "higher quality barrels"): Which of these match barrels have "match chambers" and how do they differ from a 556 or 223 wylde chamber?

Just out of curiosity.
 
Although AverageJoe didn't make any mention of "match barrels" or "match chambers" (he said "higher quality barrels"): Which of these match barrels have "match chambers" and how do they differ from a 556 or 223 wylde chamber?

Just out of curiosity.
i was referring specifically to tighter specs on a given chamber design. Its not what you really want for semiauto reliabity
 
Here's the best money spent on an AR:

take it completely apart, and true up the reciever face to the barrel extension. Use some loctite bearing assembly retaining compound (Loctite 620) on the barrel extension NOT the threads and bed it to the reciever.

Basically that $20 and a little time and specialized tools will net you a stiff bedded barrelled upper assembly that will shoot as well as you can.

Hmmm. I have not heard of that before. Is that a popular/common thing to do?

Guess I'm just out of the loop on the AR tricks and tips but it sure sounds like an easy enough thing to do in order to gain a littler better barrel accuracy.
 
Hmmm. I have not heard of that before. Is that a popular/common thing to do?

Guess I'm just out of the loop on the AR tricks and tips but it sure sounds like an easy enough thing to do in order to gain a littler better barrel accuracy.

Depends on what you need. Precision/distance, sure. 3-gun, maybe (but probably not). Defense, not needed.
 
i was referring specifically to tighter specs on a given chamber design. Its not what you really want for semiauto reliabity

Trying to learn. Can you give some examples?
 
Trying to learn. Can you give some examples?
Well Ruger uses a tight chamber spec on its AR556. At least they did when the guns first came out and the cherry aka reamer was new. Thus the guns wont run steelcase ammo worth a damn. The accuracy is very good with gold medal match federal ammo...like sub MOA. But if it wont run steel, i wont have it. So we took a 20ga mop and some polishing compound and polished the chamber til it would run anything and everything. A buddy has a similar issue with his Lilja 6.5 Grendel match barrel. If you dont know, Wolf makes 6.5G steel ammo that is pretty clean and cheap vs the $1 per rd stuff normally out there. So for plinking, etc its perfect and Lilja says its fine to shoot in their barrels.
 
Depends on what you need. Precision/distance, sure. 3-gun, maybe (but probably not). Defense, not needed.
I find that even for reliability, truing up the barrel to reciever fit helps even bolt wear and makes cycling more consistant. Alot of the reason bolt gun accuracy exceeds many semi autos is the receiver to barrel engagement not to mention correct headspace
 
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I find that even for reliability, truing up the barrel to reciever fit helps even bolt wear and makes cycling more consistant. Alot of the reason bolt gun accuracy exceeds many semi autos is the receiver to barrel engagement not to mention correct headspace

What percentage of increased reliability do you get with this? (not snark, real question). There is not a significant issue with ARs with regard to reliability. At least ones that are in-spec and maintained.
 
What percentage of increased reliability do you get with this? (not snark, real question). There is not a significant issue with ARs with regard to reliability. At least ones that are in-spec and maintained.

For the money, the percentage to cost is probably pretty high since it literally takes less than 15-20mins of labor and $12 worth of materials.
 
For the money, the percentage to cost is probably pretty high since it literally takes less than 15-20mins of labor and $12 worth of materials.

Can you quantify it, though? If you have 1,000 rifles, and you do it to 500 and do not do it to 500 but the outcome is the same, does it really add to reliability? Or a better question is, if you have 'n' % of each category that is unreliable, do you still do it? Again, not arguing, but looking at it from a 6 sigma-type of perspective.

I am not saying that it won't help. But I am saying that not doing it probably won't hurt. I would be interested in seeing the numbers. That's what coming to the end of 3 years of grad school and research has done to my mind lol.
 
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Can you quantify it, though? If you have 1,000 rifles, and you do it to 500 and do not do it to 500 but the outcome is the same, does it really add to reliability? Again, not arguing, but looking at it from a 6 sigma-type of perspective.

I would say if you are one of these run-my-2000rd BCG-sloppy-wet-with CLP you probably wont't be able to quantify it, but it's the same 'feel' as when you replace a standard parkerized bolt with a NIB one. I quantify it with the amount of force it takes me to engage and disengage the bolt by hand cycling the BCG. This is for a new standard non-coated BCG into a new barrel extension. Less force to engage the lugs equal less to disengage the lugs, which is less wear, fast lock and cycle time, etc.

It's a feel thing. My guns shoot better when I do it :D

Plus it's a $30 tool, made in USA.....you can't even buy a craftman ratchet like that anymore
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/ar-tools/1139-ar-15-upper-receiver-lapping-tool.html
 
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Well Ruger uses a tight chamber spec on its AR556. At least they did when the guns first came out and the cherry aka reamer was new. Thus the guns wont run steelcase ammo worth a damn. The accuracy is very good with gold medal match federal ammo...like sub MOA. But if it wont run steel, i wont have it. So we took a 20ga mop and some polishing compound and polished the chamber til it would run anything and everything. A buddy has a similar issue with his Lilja 6.5 Grendel match barrel. If you dont know, Wolf makes 6.5G steel ammo that is pretty clean and cheap vs the $1 per rd stuff normally out there. So for plinking, etc its perfect and Lilja says its fine to shoot in their barrels.

The Ruger is not a "match chamber" as far as I can find, and I would normally not associate a cheap Ruger AR556 as a "match rifle, but okey dokey.

At any 3gun match you can see a plethora of expensive match barrels and they all seem to work great, as reliability is the most important factor.
 
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The Ruger is not a "match chamber" as far as I can find, and I would normally not associate a cheap Ruger AR556 as a "match rifle, but okey dokey.

At any 3gun match you can see a plethora of expensive match barrels and they all seem to work great, as reliability is the most important factor.
okie dokey. tight tolerances don't just happen on expensive 3 gun rifles. When you pay more for it, then they name it a 'match' barrel.

And Ruger started out making $2500 piston guns as their first entry in the AR world.
 
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okie dokey. tight tolerances don't just happen on expensive 3 gun rifles. When you pay more for it, then they name it a 'match' barrel.

And Ruger started out making $2500 piston guns as their first entry in the AR world.

Did they have "match chambers" too?
 
okie dokey. tight tolerances don't just happen on expensive 3 gun rifles. When you pay more for it, then they name it a 'match' barrel.

And Ruger started out making $2500 piston guns as their first entry in the AR world.


Tight Tolerances WHERE?? How Tight?? Relative to what?? Please give some numbers/measurements on some examples/features you are referencing. Specifics, not generalizations..
 
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Did they have "match chambers" too?
Here ya go. Yes there are match chamber specs.

Maybe u wanna read up here also

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
65661d202e49ff935632d059d25a0047.jpg
 
Tight Tolerances WHERE?? How Tight?? Relative to what?? Please give some numbers/measurements on some examples/features you are referencing. Specifics, not generalizations..
See reamer dimensions ABOVE. They're plenty specific
 
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Thanks, I am aware there are different chamber designs.
 
Thanks, I am aware there are different chamber designs.
Trying to learn. Can you give some examples?

Just checking. From the above statement you wanted to learn and wanted examples. There they are. Figure out which MFG uses which reamer and you're golden. Or measure.

Or bandaid every round reloaded by using small base resizing dies. Or ream/polish your chamber to taste. One thing about it, no 2 guns will have the same chamber spec using different reamers.

Also I am willing to just about bet that Ruger uses similar chamber dimensions in cheap-ass AR556 as their more expensive SR556 (they only make the takedown now for $2200).
 
Just checking. From the above statement you wanted to learn and wanted examples. There they are. Figure out which MFG uses which reamer and you're golden. Or measure.

Or bandaid every round reloaded by using small base resizing dies. Or ream/polish your chamber to taste. One thing about it, no 2 guns will have the same chamber spec using different reamers.

Also I am willing to just about bet that Ruger uses similar chamber dimensions in cheap-ass AR556 as their more expensive SR556 (they only make the takedown now for $2200).

I wanted to learn which barrels have a "match chamber" (your words) and asked for examples. You gave none and instead brought up Ruger and a Lilja 6.5 grendel.
I then asked about the Ruger: "is that a match chamber" and you posted a picture from Lucky Gunner showing different chamber designs (while saying "yes there are match chamber specs", as if I was saying there wasn't, which I did not say or think: odd).
So you gave no examples of these "match barrels" with "match chambers" in 556 which is what we are discussing.

Everybody here can see that for themselves, of course. The rest of the stuff in this quote has me scratching my head. its likely correct but don't know why you are telling me? You lost me bro. Seems like you just want to argue. It's all good. Cheers.
 
See reamer dimensions ABOVE. They're plenty specific


Those are dimensions, not tolerances.... In a production environment, a chambering finish reamer will not cut the chamber the exact same every time... There would be an assigned tolerance for gaging acceptance. From my experience it is usually +/-.0005".

Lets talk some "MILSPEC".... MILSPEC is sometimes confused with "tolerances"...(?) When you buy a rifle that is MILSPEC, you are getting a rifle that is compliant with MINIMUM proven standards established for battle use. Materials, methodology, and gaging protocols are all called out.
Every single bolt from the BCG on a MILSPEC rifle has not only passed dimensional QC, but a high pressure test (HPT) and Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI). This test costs extra to proof the bolt. A MILSPEC bolt is made from 1 material only... Anything else is less..
A MILSPEC rifle has specific callouts on hard anodize. Not all anodize is the same. All of the reamed (+/- .001) holes in the lower receiver are specifically reamed oversize so the hard anodize process will "shrink" the hole diameters to proper size. MILSPEC Hard anodize costs more...
Barrel chambers on milspec M4s are reamed oversize to chrome hardcoat into tolerance. How thick is industrial hardchrome?? Your reamer list doesn't factor this into play. Hardchrome costs more.
I would say a COLT or DD priced in the $600 range is a great value for a platform that conforms to MILSPEC standards.

Rifles that are priced less are just that... Less!! Thats not to say they wont shoot and shoot well, but they are not made up of the same stuff as a true MILSPEC built battle rifle.

I have trued the front of several receivers with a lapping tool.... Pretty much doing nothing but taking the anodize off of the extension face.... I started checking the face of receivers and found them to be no more than .0007" out.. I also properly step torque the barrel nut to 120ft/lbs and have eliminated the barrel joint problem. I built an upper to test some 69grain ammo for L/E about 4 years ago. No lapping of the receiver face, just proper torquing of the barrel nut and the platform shoots (5) shot groups at 200 yards you can cover with a quarter.. The barrel was a 16" Stainless Steel 5.56 chambered shop "mule" with 2 drilled and plugged gas port holes and it shoots lights out.
 
Those are dimensions, not tolerances.... In a production environment, a chambering finish reamer will not cut the chamber the exact same every time... There would be an assigned tolerance for gaging acceptance. From my experience it is usually +/-.0005".

Lets talk some "MILSPEC".... MILSPEC is sometimes confused with "tolerances"...(?) When you buy a rifle that is MILSPEC, you are getting a rifle that is compliant with MINIMUM proven standards established for battle use. Materials, methodology, and gaging protocols are all called out.
Every single bolt from the BCG on a MILSPEC rifle has not only passed dimensional QC, but a high pressure test (HPT) and Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI). This test costs extra to proof the bolt. A MILSPEC bolt is made from 1 material only... Anything else is less..
A MILSPEC rifle has specific callouts on hard anodize. Not all anodize is the same. All of the reamed (+/- .001) holes in the lower receiver are specifically reamed oversize so the hard anodize process will "shrink" the hole diameters to proper size. MILSPEC Hard anodize costs more...
Barrel chambers on milspec M4s are reamed oversize to chrome hardcoat into tolerance. How thick is industrial hardchrome?? Your reamer list doesn't factor this into play. Hardchrome costs more.
I would say a COLT or DD priced in the $600 range is a great value for a platform that conforms to MILSPEC standards.

Rifles that are priced less are just that... Less!! Thats not to say they wont shoot and shoot well, but they are not made up of the same stuff as a true MILSPEC built battle rifle.

I have trued the front of several receivers with a lapping tool.... Pretty much doing nothing but taking the anodize off of the extension face.... I started checking the face of receivers and found them to be no more than .0007" out.. I also properly step torque the barrel nut to 120ft/lbs and have eliminated the barrel joint problem. I built an upper to test some 69grain ammo for L/E about 4 years ago. No lapping of the receiver face, just proper torquing of the barrel nut and the platform shoots (5) shot groups at 200 yards you can cover with a quarter.. The barrel was a 16" Stainless Steel 5.56 chambered shop "mule" with 2 drilled and plugged gas port holes and it shoots lights out.
You lost me at hardchrome. It was cool in the 40s but nitride and stainless are both superior. I dont own a single CL barrel on any gun anymore due to potential accuracy lost when overboring to chrome line. It's not 1965 anymore. Those 2 innovations aren't 'Milspec' but they sure increase performance over just about everything else in a gun barrel. Nickel and Titanium coatings aren't 'MILSPEC' but similarly make superior surfaces in a gun's chamber. So I'm not overly concerned with military specs (which are all about cheap volumizing to supply the world's most advanced Army circa Vietnam)

My Kawasaki dirt bike has a cool chrome lined cylinder but its a 2 stroke from the 90s.

As far as the rest blah blah you posted, give us some examples of superior tolerances on your non-existant DD and Colt $600 milspec rifles over everything else in the $600 segment.

Oh and that .0007 tolerance in the upper pushes the barrel off left right up or down alot more than that at the muzzle.

An AR in 5.56 isn't a battle rifle. At least not to the US Military standards in the future
 
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Scuuuuuuuuuuuse me...whilst I adjust my Fly!

R
 
I would also out of curiosity but I still wouldn't pay the 2-300 difference. I was glad to pocket the difference when I sold the more fashionable rifles.

You won't see them at that price point because they don't make them at that price. Rollstamp snobbery on AR15s is one of the dumbest things in the firearms world. The rifle was built modular for a reason, so you could improve upon it one piece at a time and ease of service and assembly. Treating a milspec rifle like a fine Citori shotgun isn't just dumb, it's separating fools from their money.
 
Well..not to be "that guy"...and these are great deals...but you have to add, at minimum, a $40 stock, $30 hand guard, and $50-100 in sights...so even though the skeleton is $650, its an $800 or so rifle when all is said and done. Still, not a bad price.
 
Well..not to be "that guy"...and these are great deals...but you have to add, at minimum, a $40 stock, $30 hand guard, and $50-100 in sights...so even though the skeleton is $650, its an $800 or so rifle when all is said and done. Still, not a bad price.
And Aero Precision sells the same OEM configuration for $550 or less
https://www.brownells.com/firearms/...gth-16-rifle-with-50-gift-card-prod81838.aspx

Actually alot less if you use a discount code and count the $50 gift card lol.

But.....we all know Aero makes non-milspec junk.
 
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I still want to see all these sub $700 Milspec Colts, BCMs and Daniel Defense rifles everyone is buying and selling.

A full BCM rifle sold here for like $800 the other day. I’d rather pay $100 more for a BCM than $700 for a PSA.

And Colts were on sale like mad for $700 a while back
 
A full BCM rifle sold here for like $800 the other day. I’d rather pay $100 more for a BCM than $700 for a PSA.

And Colts were on sale like mad for $700 a while back

Like I said, I want to see where you can walk in with $700 cash and walk out with a brand new Colt, DD, or BCM rifle from an FFL retail establishment. I wasn't the one who threw out that figure.

BTW if you spent $700 for a PSA rifle, it would have an FN premium CHF CL barrel, and every magpul doodad attachment, along with a $200 gift certificate in ammo.
 
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