"Short barreled" 9mm ammo, is it worth it?

Disgruntled Seabee

Disgruntled Seabee

Well-Known Member
Benefactor
Life Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
3,964
Location
NC
Rating - 100%
61   0   0
I know there are "short barreled" gold dots, I think they're +P? Are these types of rounds out of a 3" or shorter barrel worth the usage?
 
IMHO, it’s not worth buying something specifically marketed as “short barrel ammo”. I would just stick with some good quality ammo (gold dot or HST) and stock up on that. Personally I use standard pressure 147gr HSTs in my Glock 43s, because I am of the opinion that heavier is better in short barrels. Reasoning is, heavier bullets are slower, and will have longer dwell time in the barrel which should result in more powder being burned

if you could get the ammo for the same price, then sure, why not, but I certainly wouldn’t pay extra just for the marketing.
 
Most of the 'expert' reviews I have seen (and I'd refer the interested to search Paul Harrell's reviews first) indicate that they carry no particular performance improvement over comparable rounds. YMMV.
 
JT said:
Most of the 'expert' reviews I have seen (and I'd refer the interested to search Paul Harrell's reviews first) indicate that they carry no particular performance improvement over comparable rounds. YMMV.
Click to expand...
I didn't think so, it just looks like regular ammo marketed for short barrels

But as I dont have a chrono, I'll take you's guy's's word for it
 
Last edited:
Ill agree with the above...the only thing I have come to fully believe in is shot placement, quality ammo, and then everything else. +P in a short barrel may help, but I don't think I would pay a premium for "short barreled" ammo marketed as such.

Personally, I just buy Speer Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, or Hornady Critical Defense at whatever best deal I can find for whatever grain/pressure I can, roll with that.
 
Any 147gr 9mm Standard Pressure JHP from one of the major manufacturers would be my choice. Gold Dots, HST, Winchester Ranger or Hornady will all get the job done. Buy in 50 count boxes not the 20 count.

This is an old quote but I believe that it still holds true.

When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition
 
Probably not much difference in 9mm...…. I think the only differences is they use a faster burning powder and maybe a softer lead/larger cavity to help the bullet expand. Some ammo manufacturers use a fast powder anyway (PMC comes to mind).
If it were a magnum cartridge with slower burning powder...… it would make more of a difference.
 
Yup...considering Federal HST, Speer Gold Dots can often be found for $17 per box, makes it easy to stack up on good ammo and put a good bit down range. Ball is probably fine 99% of the time...but its that 1% most of us try to mitigate anyway.
 
I like 9mms. I particularly like the small, reliable, high capacity guns that shoot them. Some years back I asked a group a question and they looked at me like I had 2 heads. The question was....How is it that any 9mm anything is a death ray but the 100+ year old 38 Special shooting comparable weight and speed projectiles is "useless" for self defense? Again, I think the capability of shooting Lotsa bullets sometimes overtakes our reasoning. A 147 at 900 FPS at .355 is a lightning bolt..A 147+- at 900 FPS at .357 is useless?? Again, I really like the little high cap guns that we all carry but after thinking about it I never felt undergunned with a 5 or 6 shot 38 Special either. Again, Placement and Penetration in pitiful handgun platforms is The deciding factor.

Think I'll carry that old S&W Model 12 tomorrow.....yep....think I will...………………..
 
ICYMI, M.A.C. did a really interesting review of the newer bullet (90gr) in the Underwood Xtreme Defender +P+ 9mm ammo. Yes, it is ballistic gel testing, but the conclusions are really independently extraordinary, at least to my unsophisticated eye.

 
BU2scwMJL said:
I didn't think so, it just looks like regular ammo marketed for short barrels

But as I dont have a chrono, I'll take you's guy's's word for it
Click to expand...

The chrono is the best bet if you really want the answer.
 
Good info..Underwood stuff is Good, no doubt. The problem jell shooters run into and seldom address is, once that block is shot it should Not be used for the Next test. When Julian Hatcher tested to blow up a Colt 1911 he used a different and new pistol for each shot. When you're using tax money no cost is too much. At the very least he should have turned the blocks around and shot where they had not been shot.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
Good info..Underwood stuff is Good, no doubt. The problem jell shooters run into and seldom address is, once that block is shot it should Not be used for the Next test. When Julian Hatcher tested to blow up a Colt 1911 he used a different and new pistol for each shot. When you're using tax money no cost is too much. At the very least he should have turned the blocks around and shot where they had not been shot.
Click to expand...
The things that amazed me:
  • substantial permanent wound cavity, regardless of platform
  • controlled penetration regardless of platform
  • more significant damage than bullets designed to expand
  • penetration of various barriers without perfomance degradation
If you look at ballistic gel testing strictly as a way to compare in a standardized medium, the Underwood appears to have some features that mark it as exceptional.
 
JT said:
Underwood appears to have some features that mark it as exceptional.
Click to expand...
@Michael458 has been using these bullets for testing for over a year now. He has all the pressure data and penetration in real life repeatable penetration. As he always says "The bullet does the heavy lifting". Underwood had the good sense to reach out and make available on a larger scale for folks who don't won't to reload. Those bullitts are a little gimmicky looking But the results can't be argued with. Or I should say not by people who can interpret results.
 
JT said:
ICYMI, M.A.C. did a really interesting review of the newer bullet (90gr) in the Underwood Xtreme Defender +P+ 9mm ammo. Yes, it is ballistic gel testing, but the conclusions are really independently extraordinary, at least to my unsophisticated eye.

Click to expand...

This reminds me of the Liberty Civil Defense 50gr +P 2000fps fragmenting HP.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
"The bullet does the heavy lifting"
Click to expand...

The Bullet is everything. If you want to be successful in your mission, or endeavor, choose the right bullet for the mission at hand. This becomes important in the extreme when terminal performance is required, or desired.

Mission

Suitable bullet/load for short barreled 9mm guns.

Everything comes at a cost. By choosing a small 9mm, light, shorter firearm, while it is easier to carry, more concealable, the cost is less velocity/performance. How can we enhance the performance of any cartridge/firearm that has limited abilities? We are limited by size of the firearm and the cartridge capacity, so no where to go in that department. Our other choices, "The Bullet"............... Traditional or Conventional bullets may not be as effective at lower velocities the smaller firearm can produce. These bullets being designed to work at 100-150 fps faster, sometimes do not react well at even slightly less velocities. At lower velocities these bullet will give you #1 Less Penetration #2 Less Trauma inflicted. Fact of life, you cannot get around these Factors, with traditional conventional bullets.

Today we are truly blessed with better, and yes, more expensive bullets. I used to raise this point with some hunters. Here we have a Hunter that is spending 10s of 1000s of $$ on a big game hunt, and bitches about the cost of a $1.50 bullet? And chooses a cheap, $0.25 bullet to hunt with! And then FAILS. Looses his animal, comes home empty handed. WTF Kind of mentality is that?

Can't tell you what to do exactly, that is up to you.

What do I do in this case?

To begin with in 9mm, I carry in all my guns what I think and believe to be the very best ammo and bullets available to me, regardless of the size of the firearm. They just happen to be the perfect choice for the smaller, more compact handguns that I have, SIG 938, little Kimber's, and Shields. I hand load so I cannot attest to what factory ammo does or does not do. In 9mm for my purposes I have adopted the 90 Raptor from Cutting Edge Bullets, the 90 Extreme Defense from Lehigh, and the 115 Extreme Penetrator from Lehigh. I also prefer a good Flat Nose FMJ to back these up. Currently using the 115 FMJ RMR bullet, that has a decent, not perfect, but decent size Meplat.

I have tested these bullets for terminal performance. My test medium is a bit tougher than ballistic gel, using wet news print along with thinner layers of magazine/catalog material. I have been working with this medium for well over 25 years, and it has been used to develop and design various different bullets for big game with extreme success. For big bore rifles, gel cannot be used.

I see the good points about the Underwood ammo. I have never seen or even actually heard of Underwood, but the fact they are using the 90 Lehigh and testing it, and getting the same results that I get here is a testament to their understanding of the bullet and what it does.

JD Jones and I were working with this type bullet back in 2006, and this is the origin of the current Lehighs you see today. Because David Fricke, owner of Lehigh, was making the bullets JD and I were testing, they were in .500 caliber and designed for rifles of course. And, they worked. The ones JD and I used were not as "radical" as the Lehighs you see today. But they did work, they did move fluid, and they did leave a more permanent wound channel than the same bullet as a solid, with no cuts in the meplat. I even tested this bullet on Cape Buffalo with good results. Since those early days, Lehigh has done an extremely good job at further research, and tweaking the nose to perfection.

The Extreme Defense and Extreme Penetrator bullets work off the principle of moving fluids at such a rate that it rips and tears the medium, or tissue, causing a more permanent wound channel. While the wound channel is not as
extreme as a Raptor from Cutting Edge, or the Controlled Fracturing from Lehigh, it is still substantial and would compare favorably with "conventional or traditional expanding Bullets", if not exceeding in most cases. In addition to increased trauma inflicted, these bullets far out penetrate conventional expanding bullets, and that is the part I like. While they do not penetrate as deep as a Flat Nose FMJ or Solid, they are more than conventional expanding, more than Raptors/Controlled Fracturing. You almost have the best of both worlds. Increased Trauma and Increased Penetration. These are "In Between" bullets. And work very well.

And this is how I "Enhance" my 9mm Firearms, regardless of size.

90 Lehigh/90 Raptors
With my Load in 7.5 to 8 inch guns I get a velocity of 1600 fps
5 inch guns 1466 fps
4 inch guns 1422 fps
Sig 938 and Shields 1265-1295 fps
 
Michael458 said:
The Bullet is everything. If you want to be successful in your mission, or endeavor, choose the right bullet for the mission at hand. This becomes important in the extreme when terminal performance is required, or desired.

Mission

Suitable bullet/load for short barreled 9mm guns.

Everything comes at a cost. By choosing a small 9mm, light, shorter firearm, while it is easier to carry, more concealable, the cost is less velocity/performance. How can we enhance the performance of any cartridge/firearm that has limited abilities? We are limited by size of the firearm and the cartridge capacity, so no where to go in that department. Our other choices, "The Bullet"............... Traditional or Conventional bullets may not be as effective at lower velocities the smaller firearm can produce. These bullets being designed to work at 100-150 fps faster, sometimes do not react well at even slightly less velocities. At lower velocities these bullet will give you #1 Less Penetration #2 Less Trauma inflicted. Fact of life, you cannot get around these Factors, with traditional conventional bullets.

Today we are truly blessed with better, and yes, more expensive bullets. I used to raise this point with some hunters. Here we have a Hunter that is spending 10s of 1000s of $$ on a big game hunt, and bitches about the cost of a $1.50 bullet? And chooses a cheap, $0.25 bullet to hunt with! And then FAILS. Looses his animal, comes home empty handed. WTF Kind of mentality is that?

Can't tell you what to do exactly, that is up to you.

What do I do in this case?

To begin with in 9mm, I carry in all my guns what I think and believe to be the very best ammo and bullets available to me, regardless of the size of the firearm. They just happen to be the perfect choice for the smaller, more compact handguns that I have, SIG 938, little Kimber's, and Shields. I hand load so I cannot attest to what factory ammo does or does not do. In 9mm for my purposes I have adopted the 90 Raptor from Cutting Edge Bullets, the 90 Extreme Defense from Lehigh, and the 115 Extreme Penetrator from Lehigh. I also prefer a good Flat Nose FMJ to back these up. Currently using the 115 FMJ RMR bullet, that has a decent, not perfect, but decent size Meplat.

I have tested these bullets for terminal performance. My test medium is a bit tougher than ballistic gel, using wet news print along with thinner layers of magazine/catalog material. I have been working with this medium for well over 25 years, and it has been used to develop and design various different bullets for big game with extreme success. For big bore rifles, gel cannot be used.

I see the good points about the Underwood ammo. I have never seen or even actually heard of Underwood, but the fact they are using the 90 Lehigh and testing it, and getting the same results that I get here is a testament to their understanding of the bullet and what it does.

JD Jones and I were working with this type bullet back in 2006, and this is the origin of the current Lehighs you see today. Because David Fricke, owner of Lehigh, was making the bullets JD and I were testing, they were in .500 caliber and designed for rifles of course. And, they worked. The ones JD and I used were not as "radical" as the Lehighs you see today. But they did work, they did move fluid, and they did leave a more permanent wound channel than the same bullet as a solid, with no cuts in the meplat. I even tested this bullet on Cape Buffalo with good results. Since those early days, Lehigh has done an extremely good job at further research, and tweaking the nose to perfection.

The Extreme Defense and Extreme Penetrator bullets work off the principle of moving fluids at such a rate that it rips and tears the medium, or tissue, causing a more permanent wound channel. While the wound channel is not as
extreme as a Raptor from Cutting Edge, or the Controlled Fracturing from Lehigh, it is still substantial and would compare favorably with "conventional or traditional expanding Bullets", if not exceeding in most cases. In addition to increased trauma inflicted, these bullets far out penetrate conventional expanding bullets, and that is the part I like. While they do not penetrate as deep as a Flat Nose FMJ or Solid, they are more than conventional expanding, more than Raptors/Controlled Fracturing. You almost have the best of both worlds. Increased Trauma and Increased Penetration. These are "In Between" bullets. And work very well.

And this is how I "Enhance" my 9mm Firearms, regardless of size.

90 Lehigh/90 Raptors
With my Load in 7.5 to 8 inch guns I get a velocity of 1600 fps
5 inch guns 1466 fps
4 inch guns 1422 fps
Sig 938 and Shields 1265-1295 fps
Click to expand...
This Underwood ammo uses Lehigh controlled fracturing. 105gr +P
Screenshot_20200306-070809_Chrome.jpg
 
Michael458 said:
To begin with in 9mm, I carry in all my guns what I think and believe to be the very best ammo and bullets available to me, regardless of the size of the firearm. They just happen to be the perfect choice for the smaller, more compact handguns that I have, SIG 938, little Kimber's, and Shields. I hand load so I cannot attest to what factory ammo does or does not do. In 9mm for my purposes I have adopted the 90 Raptor from Cutting Edge Bullets, the 90 Extreme Defense from Lehigh, and the 115 Extreme Penetrator from Lehigh. I also prefer a good Flat Nose FMJ to back these up. Currently using the 115 FMJ RMR bullet, that has a decent, not perfect, but decent size Meplat.
Click to expand...

And as far as I am concerned, that seals the deal for me. Thank you @Michael458 and @BatteryOaksBilly for your work and for sharing your wisdom and experience with us!
 
Last edited:
BU2scwMJL said:
This Underwood ammo uses Lehigh controlled fracturing. 105gr +P
Click to expand...

Again, excellent bullet, and does exactly what it says...... These are not "Magic Bullets", these are the real deal and every single one of them does exactly what they say the do. This is not the same hyper crap we used to get from the likes of the really big Manufacturers. Not only that, but every single bullet will behave the same as the one before. All are CNC Machined, there are no variables at play from bullet to bullet.

If you do not hand load, then the Underwood looks like a good option to try. BTW, with the Controlled Fracturing bullet and all the Raptors from Cutting Edge. They are not "Petals", they are "Blades"............... Petals peel and push, Blades slice and dice. The blades that shear slice and dice their way through vitals, vessels, and tissue to obtain deeper penetration than what a "Petal" can push through. All the while, the remaining "Blunt Force Slug" continues to penetrate straight.
 
Michael458 said:
Again, excellent bullet, and does exactly what it says...... These are not "Magic Bullets", these are the real deal and every single one of them does exactly what they say the do. This is not the same hyper crap we used to get
from the likes of the really big Manufacturers. Not only that, but every single bullet will behave the same as the one before. All are CNC Machined, there are no variables at play from bullet to bullet.

If you do not hand load, then the Underwood looks like a good option to try. BTW, with the Controlled Fracturing bullet and all the Raptors from Cutting Edge. They are not "Petals", they are "Blades"............... Petals peel and push, Blades slice and dice. The blades that shear slice and dice their way through vitals, vessels, and tissue to obtain deeper penetration than what a "Petal" can push through. All the while, the remaining "Blunt Force Slug" continues to penetrate straight.
Click to expand...
I like the slicing and dicing idea. :D
 
BU2scwMJL said:
I like the slicing and dicing idea
Click to expand...

Raptors are famous for that, and it is extreme. I have a lot of experience with them in rifles and first hand experience from 9.3 caliber to .510 caliber. For instance "blades" only weigh in at 6-9 grains with those big bore bullets, yet can exit broadside animals that weigh in up to 250 lbs. Now a projectile that weighs 6-9 grains cannot do that, even full weight 38 specials cannot do that. But here a measly little 6-9 gr blade off of a Raptor bullet can exit deer + size animals? It does not do that from pushing it's way through tissue. It "Slices and Dices" its way through.

Another plus with these type bullets, is that those blades are working close with the center bullet once they shear. Everything is moving forward, they shear consistently at 1.5 inches of penetration, the shear is like a miniature grenade exploding. As all move forward, for a few inches the blades are close to the center bullet. As tissue expands when a bullet passes through, then later contracts back down, these blades are slicing and dicing that tissue for the first few inches, that area does not contract back, and is now sliced and part of a more permanent cavity. After about 3-4 inches of penetration, the blades have moved far enough away from center to become secondary projectiles on their own.

From this effect, vessels, tissue, organs are all sliced, causing incredible blood loss. Unless you have seen it in the field, you cannot begin to understand it completely.

Naturally these little 9 mm Raptors and Fractures are nothing compared to a rifle bullet, but about as good as it gets within the same category. Compared to other bullets, all these Lehighs and Cutting Edge are just a long way ahead of what you are used to.

Cost? Yes, of course. But its not like you are going to be shooting them in the 1000s of rounds...> Shoot enough to make sure your firearm feeds and functions, and sight in and such, and that is it.

I had a good bit of these loaded. But between my boys, Billy, and a few others, my damn supplies has dwindled! I am going to have to order some more! LOL
 
Michael458 said:
Raptors are famous for that, and it is extreme. I have a lot of experience with them in rifles and first hand experience from 9.3 caliber to .510 caliber. For instance "blades" only weigh in at 6-9 grains with those big bore bullets, yet can exit broadside animals that weigh in up to 250 lbs. Now a projectile that weighs 6-9 grains cannot do that, even full weight 38 specials cannot do that. But here a measly little 6-9 gr blade off of a Raptor bullet can exit deer + size animals? It does not do that from pushing it's way through tissue. It "Slices and Dices" its way through.

Another plus with these type bullets, is that those blades are working close with the center bullet once they shear. Everything is moving forward, they shear consistently at 1.5 inches of penetration, the shear is like a miniature grenade exploding. As all move forward, for a few inches the blades are close to the center bullet. As tissue expands when a bullet passes through, then later contracts back down, these blades are slicing and dicing that tissue for the first few inches, that area does not contract back, and is now sliced and part of a more permanent cavity. After about 3-4 inches of penetration, the blades have moved far enough away from center to become secondary projectiles on their own.

From this effect, vessels, tissue, organs are all sliced, causing incredible blood loss. Unless you have seen it in the field, you cannot begin to understand it completely.

Naturally these little 9 mm Raptors and Fractures are nothing compared to a rifle bullet, but about as good as it gets within the same category. Compared to other bullets, all these Lehighs and Cutting Edge are just a long way ahead of what you are used to.

Cost? Yes, of course. But its not like you are going to be shooting them in the 1000s of rounds...> Shoot enough to make sure your firearm feeds and functions, and sight in and such, and that is it.

I had a good bit of these loaded. But between my boys, Billy, and a few others, my damn supplies has dwindled! I am going to have to order some more! LOL
Click to expand...
I'll be ordering some as soon as I can, that's for sure
 
vp9c said:
In the ballistic gelatin test they all of the gold dots seem to perform similarly out of a 3.5" M&P9C except the 147gr that didn't expand. I'm always impressed that the standard velocity often seem to do as well or better than the +P.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
Click to expand...
I saw this a while back and is why I use 124 +P gold dots. I really like them but we’re kind of splitting hairs with these top quality defensive loads.
 
I carry Speer GD’s , usually 124gr, and whenever Targetsportsusa has one of their killer sales. Use Speer GD’s in my snub 38’s as well.
Just an ordinary guy, not a gunslinger.
 
Last edited:
Is there a place to get the Lehigh Penetrator/defender bullets for reloading at a reasonable price...maybe a bulk discount?

When I go through my stash of HST/Gold Dot I would be open to using these primarily.
 
Robbie said:
Is there a place to get the Lehigh Penetrator/defender bullets for reloading at a reasonable price...maybe a bulk discount?

When I go through my stash of HST/Gold Dot I would be open to using these primarily.
Click to expand...
Try Cutting Edge Bullets.
 
When we went over to @Michael458 place before Geezer's sendoff, I was talking about how deep the cavity was on those bullets. I could very well see why they work and cause the devastation that they do. Thank you to @BatteryOaksBilly for taking us again, and thank you @Michael458 for having us over again. I could listen to him talk about bullet tech for hours, lol.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom