So I picked up this Norinco 1911....

[tokarevfan]

First 1911 after many years of shooting. always liked shooting 1911s but I never went down the 1911 rabbit hole because I was a little bit intimidated with working on them because of all the horror stories through the years of people trying to "fix" them and doing more harm than good.

Went with the Norinco because I knew the reputation for the steel quality and just wanted a mil spec 1911 to start out with. I wasnt looking for match grade accuracy or tight fitting all around. Just wanted a reliable and durable 1911 that was loose enough to be reliable and combat accurate.

So I went to pick it up. Everything looked good.... low round count....all original except for the hogue rubber grips. I want to keep it milspec-ish... picked up some USGI black repo grips. Not looking for a fancy 1911 this time... just a simple milspec all business in black.

Grip safety was loose.... bent the spring a little....fixed. Had sharp edges at the web of the hand. Just broke the edge so its comfortable. A little touch up with oxpho....all is well.

Lanyard loop is annoying on mag changes so a norinco arched mainspring housing sans the lanyard loop is on the way. Trigger is fine. I dont like light trigger pulls a whole lot. I will probably smooth the contact points but thats as far as I want to go with this 1911. Sights are fine. I put some fresh paint in the dots..yellow front....red in back. This is my typical setup for all my sights. They stand out and are easy for me to pick up. Magazines are going to be basic 7rd welded bottom flush. I reworked a few innexpensive milspec-ish mag bodies and they all work fine for ball ammo on the function testing. This 1911 likes flat followers on the LRHO and work 100% on tripping the slide stop so I need to track some of those down.

This pistol will be resprung with a wolff kit on my next order. Also will be putting in a titanium FP for a little more safety. The FP stop is lose enough that the extractor clocks slightly so that will get replace with an oversized one. Pretty sure that will be fairly easy to remedy.

Now the bad part.... The barrel. Common issue with these is the barrels are soft causing the upper lugs to deform. This pistol barrel had some slight deformation. The fitting of the barrel is um "not great". I figured it wouldnt be match fit but it doesnt pass the function test. Suprising for a Factory built gun. Pressing the muzzle to drop the barrel (slide stop in but dangling) locks up the slide stop. So its not hitting the VIS at all as far as I can tell. The link is holding it. Kind of suprised the lower barrel lug has not sheered off. Slide stop appears to be straight....link itself is intact.

Alright.... I have lots of norincos in other designs...all work or were made to work with some simple stoning and polishing. Commercial Toks probably the roughest but I have manage to get them all 100% through the years. Only thing I never liked was the steel on the commercial Toks....very soft. So hear I was thinking the 1911s would be rough (which they are) but the steel would be magnificent which it is.... except for the barrel (didnt realy expect that).

So now I am looking at drop in barrels. Only problem is there doesnt seem to be such a thing for 1911s. I was pretty confident I could figure it out (watched many videos) .. get a remsport barrel....buy the kart tool kit....take my time etc. Then I start reading about barrel reaming and go/ no go gauges etc. Sheesh... Then I start reading about sometimes 1911s having the VIS cut too far back and needing to be welded up and recut....again....sheesh. So hear I finally get a 1911 ....basic milspec....thinking "perfect durable starter 1911" and I have a nightmare to deal with.

It would be nice to get it working enough to shoot it...Ha Ha. As of right now I dont see that happening without doing damage to the pistol. Luckily the slide is so strong that the upper lugs dont damage easily. I figure the Chicoms determined the barrels to be expendable. I am pretty amazed at the level of barrel fitting on this pistol. The rest of the pistol is fine.... typical rough norinco stuff. But the barrel seamingly not hitting the VIS is kind of nutty IMO.

I kind of would like to just fit the factory barrel a little better so I can shoot it. It would be nice to put a decent barrel into it but I am not sure I have the ability right now...definitly dont have all the tools....no reamer....no gauges. I excepted that I would be buying the Kart tool kit but now its turning into many other tools. Thought about maybe fixing the factory barrel with a long link to get the barrel hitting the VIS but I have read that it can cause a lot of other problems.....great......GREAT!

So thats where I am at. My lovely Milspec-ish 1911 paper weight. What a wonderful into into 1911 fandom. Here I was getting all excited Ha Ha. No sense dwelling on it. I am going to have to get this thing running somehow. I really was hoping to keep this minimal and just smooth things out. I have no desire or the funds to send this out and spend a grand or two trying to turn this gun into a Wilson Combat safe hermit.

I dont regret getting it. I always wanted one of these old school railroad track Norincos. Kind of wish it was not my first 1911 but thats life. Had I known the barrels where like this I would have probably started out with a 1911 I could actually shoot.

Anyways... thats the situation. I will say its fun to dry fire (with a test round of course). Feels great in the hand....nice weight/balance......points like a dream. If I can make it work I will probably carry it.

 

[MacEntyre]

How does it shoot?

@John Travis might have some suggestions...

 

[BatteryOaksBilly]

all the horror stories through the years of people trying to "fix" them and doing more harm than good.

Looks like you fell in exactly That trap....

 

[Catfish]

It really sounds like you’re overthinking it. How does it shoot?

 

[tokarevfan]

Looks like you fell in exactly That trap....

well ... so far I have only adjusted the grip safety tension and cleaned it. The mainspring sans the lanyard loop should be pretty straight forward. The parts look to all be original and unaltered so the pistol has not been molested. Any issues it has were done by the factory.

No sense dwelling on it. I am going to have to figure it out either way.

 

[wvsig]

So now I am looking at drop in barrels. Only problem is there doesnt seem to be such a thing for 1911s. I was pretty confident I could figure it out (watched many videos) .. get a remsport barrel....buy the kart tool kit....take my time etc. Then I start reading about barrel reaming and go/ no go gauges etc. Sheesh... Then I start reading about sometimes 1911s having the VIS cut too far back and needing to be welded up and recut....again....sheesh. So hear I finally get a 1911 ....basic milspec....thinking "perfect durable starter 1911" and I have a nightmare to deal with.

It would be nice to get it working enough to shoot it...Ha Ha. As of right now I dont see that happening without doing damage to the pistol. Luckily the slide is so strong that the upper lugs dont damage easily. I figure the Chicoms determined the barrels to be expendable. I am pretty amazed at the level of barrel fitting on this pistol. The rest of the pistol is fine.... typical rough norinco stuff. But the barrel seamingly not hitting the VIS is kind of nutty IMO.

I kind of would like to just fit the factory barrel a little better so I can shoot it. It would be nice to put a decent barrel into it but I am not sure I have the ability right now...definitly dont have all the tools....no reamer....no gauges. I excepted that I would be buying the Kart tool kit but now its turning into many other tools. Thought about maybe fixing the factory barrel with a long link to get the barrel hitting the VIS but I have read that it can cause a lot of other problems.....great......GREAT!

There are no drop in parts on a 1911. Either get a barrel and the tools to fit it yourself or get someone to fit it for you. Unless you are to fit a lot of barrels on your own the cheaper route is to pay someone $150-$200 to fit it properly. IMHO

 

[Millie]

How does it shoot?

@John Travis might have some suggestions...

I thought he said he wanted to get it to where it WOULD shoot.

 

[wvsig]

@tokarevfan

This is taken from an another forum.

Posted by 1911Tuner

Norinco

Hey Combatant,

First, an understanding of how the 1911s locked breech works will help.
When the round fires, the slide and bullet are propelled in opposite directions.
When the thrust faces of the locking lugs are forced together by this opposite
movement, the breech locks. The barrel lugs' front faces and the slide lugs' rear faces are the thrust surfaces that engage under pressure.

As you probably know, I got into ferreting out all the Norinco owners that I could find in about a 6-county area...and even got a few from Tennessee.
I found that a small percentage had barrel fit problems that resulted in damaged lugs and excessive headspace that resulted from that damage and deformation. All the Norincos that I saw had headspace that was a little
looser than I'm comfortable with, along with a lot of fore/aft barrel play within the slide...which can contribute to early lug deformation and increased headspace.

Maybe if I define what headspace is just a little differently...and how it can go wrong in a 1911 pistol, you'll know what to keep an eye peeled for. Headspace can be defined in two ways, and it can be excessive in two ways.
One of which is dangerous, and the other only causes erratic ignition and possible innacuracy.

Static Headspace is the distance from the breechface to the chamber stop shoulder with the gun in battery. Static headspace is what it is, and is constant until lug deformation causes it to change. When that occurs,
the breech will open slightly when the gun is fired, allowing the case to become unsupported in the head area. Evidence that headspace is seen
in the shape and condition of the barrel locking lugs on the front faces.
If they take on a noticeable stepped appearance, with the upper areas farther rearward than the lower, original location of the faces...there's a good chance that your static headspace has increased to an excessive level, and this stepped deformation can occur on the slide's lugs as well as the barrel's.


When the lugs deform, the static headspace increases by the same amount as the deformation. Rolled lugs...rounded off at the corners...aren't a sign of excessive headspace, but if allowed to continue for very long can lead to it.
that damage is due to other issues besides the straight-line deformation...also known as "Slap-Seating."

Slap-seating occurs because of excessive barrel endplay in the slide. Lug deformation will occur with enough use, but the less endplay that you have, the longer it's delayed. The reason is simple. More end-play means that the slide and barrel lugs have a longer running start at each other before they
engage...but deformation will occur even with zero endplay. It just takes longer to get started. Likewise, the better the lug engagement that is persent, the more the lugs resist deformation. Full depth delays it. Equal horizontal engagement with all three lugs delays it. Very few production barrel and slide combos provide equal lug engagement. Many don't provide even two. If we're lucky, the single lug that engages horizontally is the first one, which is the strongest and most supported. It will deform slower than the others, but the depth of the lug's engagement determines how slow or fast that will occur.

Working, or "Live" headspace is determined as the difference between static and the length of the cartridge case in the chamber. This will vary according to the length of a given case. You can have minimum static headspace...slip a GAP .45 round into the chamber...and produce excessive headspace. This is the type of excessive that isn't dangerous, and works the same as reaming the chamber too deep.

When you look over your pistol, you can check a few things to determine how well your barrel to slide fit is to some degree by using a dial caliper to measure the barrel's endplay in the slide. Slide off, push the barrel back as far as it will go and measure the distance between the muzzle and the bushing. Then force the barrel fully forward and measure again. The difference is the amount of endplay that you have. Not precise, but close enough for government work.

To check the vertical engagement, put the gun together and slip a 1/8th drill rod, (or even a piece of popsicle stick to fit the breechface) between the hood and breechface. Measure carefully from the top of the slide to the top of the barrel. Take the rod out and measure again. The difference is roughly the amount of vertical engagement. Ideally, you want the full depth of the lug...or about .050 inch. Again, most production guns don't provide that much, and usually fall between .042 and .045 inch. Some don't go that deep.

Checking for equal horizontal engagement, or to determine which lug(s) are bearing is a little more involved. You need to use gauge blocks to determine the locations of the rear lug faces within the slide, and measure the distance from the rear of the barrel hood to the front barrel lug faces. If you have clearance between the hood and the breechface, you need to measure that
and add it to the hood to lug face dimension. You'll probably be surprised to find that only one lug is taking the heat...and it's probaby not going to be lug #1. In case you don't know, #1 lug is the first wall ahead of the chamber, and it doesn't have a slot behind it like the others do.

In searching for a good pistol, you may want to have a machinist whittle out a set of headspace gauges from cold-rolled steel...which will be soft, and not very long-lived, but will be adequate for occasional use. .898 Go and .920
NO-GO...and you can probably get by with just the NO-GO gauge, since I've never found a Norinco or any other factory-built 1911 that wouldn't go to battery on the GO gauge. If the gun goes to battery easily on the NO-GO, you probably need to leave the gun laying unless you can get the price down enough to pay for another barrel and the fitting. Note that all the Norincos would come very close to going to battery on a NO-GO gauge. To the untrained eye, it appeared that they actually did. You'll have to look closely at the rear of the slide and frame alignment to see if there's a difference. If the lugs are deformed and damaged, you can about bet that the headspace is excessive, and in the dangerous direction.

I bought 4 of the Norincos that I looked at, and rebarrelled all 4...because I wasn't comfortable with the barrel fit on 3 pistols...and one because it was so bad that 500 rounds would probably have put it over the NO-GO limit.
The three that were okay were slated for hard use, and would have done fine as they were if they had only been intended for limited use and/or carry.

 

[wvsig]

I thought he said he wanted to get it to where it WOULD shoot.

It sounds like he thinks it won't shoot but clearly it does shoot because if it didn't there would be no deformation of the locking lugs. The OP never says if he/she has actually shot the gun. I am not 1911 tinkerer but I have owned a Norinco and did a fair amount of research on them at one time. The barrel fit was almost always poor. People wanted them because they were "good" steel and were pretty true to the 1911 pattern. When they could be had on the cheap they were good base guns for custom build where you stripped everything but the frame and the slide. The barrel fit was corrected with a new barrel. Their mystic was increased due to the Clinton ban. From there prices have risen and the mystic has grown. IMHO these days there are tons of better examples of basic 1911s which can be had NIB for the same of less money.

 

[Climberman]

So norinco's are known for good steel quality but barrel steel is soft and barrel fit is poor?
I'm confused. How does steel quality rate on other more common 1911's like springer, s&w, colt etc?

 

[tokarevfan]

It really sounds like you’re overthinking it. How does it shoot?

Pretty sure if I fire the pistol its just going to get worse. Without the lower lug hitting the VIS its going to put tremendous stress on the link and slide stop. I am still thinking a longer link might be possible but it seems like doing so would shift the entire upper forward on the frame. Also not sure how changing to longer links effects all the other aspects of the gun. The barrel will probably engage higher into the slide lugs which seems like it would be a good thing...more lockup etc. This assumes the FP still hits the primer. If I remove the upper, take the barrel, and place it in the frame contacting the VIS it does extend over the feedramp just a hair so I would have to trim that area down. I may not be understanding all this correctly though.

When I was waiting on the pistol to arrive I found out the barrels had issues on Norincos. I had always heard great things about Norincos other than being rough cosmetically. The reputation I was aware of was that they are solid milspec 1911s made from very strong steel.....which is what I wanted. My own experience with other norincos firearms was just that. Outside of rough machining and sometimes subpar springs they have all been great firearms. The softer steel in the commercial tokarevs on the frame and slide is specific to those and even at that as long as things are smoothed out and well greased its not really an issue with standard loads. For a little extra protection I keep the springs fresh, increase the hammer spring resistance, and make a leather buffer for the recoil spring plug to stop any battering of the slide. Thats with the tokarevs though. I have never had a norinco tok that didnt have the barrel lug impacting the VIS properly. Those are based more on browning 1903 type design but its very similar to the 1911.... Hence my shock to this 1911 when I was inspecting it in terms of barrel fitting. All my other Norincos....Makarovs, SKS, AKs, 870 clones etc. have all been a little rough on the tooling but fit and function was correct. The 1911 seems to be a bit of an anomoly...which is suprising given its rep over the years.

Possibilities in my mind...

the barrel is way out of spec

The VIS cutout on the fame is way out of spec

Solutions????

Longer link.... I suppose I could start filing away on the factory link. I am reluctant to just start going at it as it seems like it would compromise the stength of that part.

Just start ordering barrels....which could get expensive very quickly and not solve anything.

Ideally I would prefer to work with what I have and keep the barrel, shoot it until I wear it out, then eventually replace it with a better quality barrel in terms of steel.

Thats where I am at this morning. This is all very frustrating to be honest. I expected to be able to start shooting this 1911 once I put new springs in it. I figured it would be a little weak in terms of accuracy being a rough mil-spec. I am fine with that.... I didnt expect the pistol to be so far out of spec that It would not pass a basic fitment test and not function correctly. I expected to tweek, tune, and smooth things out.... right now it feels like its a complete rebuild. Hopefully I can salvage it with the help of some of the knowledge on places like this forum.

I wont give up on it. Probably keep pondering what to do and waiting for more input to get a better understanding. I have run into problems before working on firearms. I just take a break when it gets overwhelming. Step away and do something more positive..... I expect I will do so today and do something more rewarding. Right now I am pondering going outside and beating my head on the driveway or french kissing a copperhead! I will most likely settle on taking the kids for a hike or going longboarding......have to be responsible and all.

 

[OldNascar]

Buy a Kevlar reenforced glove and shoot the pistol looking for suspect swells on the cases. If none, remove the glove and run it until it stops. Your hand will probably demand relief before it does. It’s a 1911 and it is amazing how long one will run if you just shoot it, good luck.

 

[wvsig]

Pretty sure if I fire the pistol its just going to get worse. Without the lower lug hitting the VIS its going to put tremendous stress on the link and slide stop. I am still thinking a longer link might be possible but it seems like doing so would shift the entire upper forward on the frame. Also not sure how changing to longer links effects all the other aspects of the gun. The barrel will probably engage higher into the slide lugs which seems like it would be a good thing...more lockup etc. This assumes the FP still hits the primer. If I remove the upper, take the barrel, and place it in the frame contacting the VIS it does extend over the feedramp just a hair so I would have to trim that area down. I may not be understanding all this correctly though.

When I was waiting on the pistol to arrive I found out the barrels had issues on Norincos. I had always heard great things about Norincos other than being rough cosmetically. The reputation I was aware of was that they are solid milspec 1911s made from very strong steel.....which is what I wanted. My own experience with other norincos firearms was just that. Outside of rough machining and sometimes subpar springs they have all been great firearms. The softer steel in the commercial tokarevs on the frame and slide is specific to those and even at that as long as things are smoothed out and well greased its not really an issue with standard loads. For a little extra protection I keep the springs fresh, increase the hammer spring resistance, and make a leather buffer for the recoil spring plug to stop any battering of the slide. Thats with the tokarevs though. I have never had a norinco tok that didnt have the barrel lug impacting the VIS properly. Those are based more on browning 1903 type design but its very similar to the 1911.... Hence my shock to this 1911 when I was inspecting it in terms of barrel fitting. All my other Norincos....Makarovs, SKS, AKs, 870 clones etc. have all been a little rough on the tooling but fit and function was correct. The 1911 seems to be a bit of an anomoly...which is suprising given its rep over the years.

Possibilities in my mind...

the barrel is way out of spec

The VIS cutout on the fame is way out of spec

Solutions????

Longer link.... I suppose I could start filing away on the factory link. I am reluctant to just start going at it as it seems like it would compromise the stength of that part.

Just start ordering barrels....which could get expensive very quickly and not solve anything.

Ideally I would prefer to work with what I have and keep the barrel, shoot it until I wear it out, then eventually replace it with a better quality barrel in terms of steel.

Thats where I am at this morning. This is all very frustrating to be honest. I expected to be able to start shooting this 1911 once I put new springs in it. I figured it would be a little weak in terms of accuracy being a rough mil-spec. I am fine with that.... I didnt expect the pistol to be so far out of spec that It would not pass a basic fitment test and not function correctly. I expected to tweek, tune, and smooth things out.... right now it feels like its a complete rebuild. Hopefully I can salvage it with the help of some of the knowledge on places like this forum.

I wont give up on it. Probably keep pondering what to do and waiting for more input to get a better understanding. I have run into problems before working on firearms. I just take a break when it gets overwhelming. Step away and do something more positive..... I expect I will do so today and do something more rewarding. Right now I am pondering going outside and beating my head on the driveway or french kissing a copperhead! I will most likely settle on taking the kids for a hike or going longboarding......have to be responsible and all.

Rebarrel the gun. Why put so much work into a POS barrel. Most of the time with Norincos a new properly fit barrel is the solution. You don't have to go high end. There are lots of take off Colt barrels which take out of NIB base guns sold in various places all the time. Clearly YMMV

 

[tokarevfan]

How does it shoot?

@John Travis might have some suggestions...

Ha Ha ....Absolutely... hopefully Obi Won will chime in. I have directed his dogs to inform him that there is a disturbance in the force.

 

[wvsig]

So norinco's are known for good steel quality but barrel steel is soft and barrel fit is poor?
I'm confused. How does steel quality rate on other more common 1911's like springer, s&w, colt etc?

Barrels are low quality and not well built. It is the frame and the slide which are good steel. A SA milspec or Colt Classic is a much better buy these days IMHO.

 

[tokarevfan]

It sounds like he thinks it won't shoot but clearly it does shoot because if it didn't there would be no deformation of the locking lugs. The OP never says if he/she has actually shot the gun. I am not 1911 tinkerer but I have owned a Norinco and did a fair amount of research on them at one time. The barrel fit was almost always poor. People wanted them because they were "good" steel and were pretty true to the 1911 pattern. When they could be had on the cheap they were good base guns for custom build where you stripped everything but the frame and the slide. The barrel fit was corrected with a new barrel. Their mystic was increased due to the Clinton ban. From there prices have risen and the mystic has grown. IMHO these days there are tons of better examples of basic 1911s which can be had NIB for the same of less money.

Oh it will shoot... no doubt about that. The concern is that shooting will damge the pistolrom what I am seeing. I am not will to go out and plink away until thinks break and the pistol locks itself up. I am OK with the rest of the pistol for the most part. I wasnt looking for a custom build.... Just a functionable pistol made of good steel. I am fine with loosey goosely milspec fit on this gun. Like I said.. its my first 1911. Just wanted a good basic milspecish pistol.... warts and all. A standard 1911 feels pretty darn excellent to me. I can get into the fancy stuff later If I feel it necessary. If that happens I will just buy another 1911 with those features. I tend to be more minimalistic on firearms though....keep things simple. Once I get things working I tend to just leave them alone and concentrate on shooting. Most of my firearms are more accurate than I am.

All I am really looking at on this pistol is this

Get the barrel situation working as designed
Titanium FP and XP FP spring for a little more safety (mainly for CCW use)
Fresh springs if necessary (Just preventative maintinance for the most part)
Fix the extractor clocking from a loose FP stop...(might not be necessary)
Smooth contact points on trigger (no cost... its pretty good as is)

The lanyard loop removal is just a personal thing. I want to use standard 7rd milspec style mags and the lanyard ring kind of gets in the way on a mag change. I can live with it if the mainspring housing I ordered does not work out. I just didnt want to hack off the loop on the original MS housing. I have a 10 pack of magazines on the way. I will rework them to the gun and try and track down some flat followers.......Nothing fancy. The original norinco Magazaing is excellent. I typically just shoot and carry FMJ ball ammo.

 

[tokarevfan]

Buy a Kevlar reenforced glove and shoot the pistol looking for suspect swells on the cases. If none, remove the glove and run it until it stops. Your hand will probably demand relief before it does. It’s a 1911 and it is amazing how long one will run if you just shoot it, good luck.

If the link is stopping the barrel and not the frame its not going to run long. Either the link will snap or the slide stop will give way. The cases will probably look fine.

 

[wvsig]

Oh it will shoot... no doubt about that. The concern is that shooting will damge the pistolrom what I am seeing. I am not will to go out and plink away until thinks break and the pistol locks itself up. I am OK with the rest of the pistol for the most part. I wasnt looking for a custom build.... Just a functionable pistol made of good steel. I am fine with loosey goosely milspec fit on this gun. Like I said.. its my first 1911. Just wanted a good basic milspecish pistol.... warts and all. A standard 1911 feels pretty darn excellent to me. I can get into the fancy stuff later If I feel it necessary. If that happens I will just buy another 1911 with those features. I tend to be more minimalistic on firearms though....keep things simple. Once I get things working I tend to just leave them alone and concentrate on shooting. Most of my firearms are more accurate than I am.

All I am really looking at on this pistol is this

Get the barrel situation working as designed
Titanium FP and XP FP spring for a little more safety (mainly for CCW use)
Fresh springs if necessary (Just preventative maintinance for the most part)
Fix the extractor clocking from a loose FP stop...(might not be necessary)
Smooth contact points on trigger (no cost... its pretty good as is)

The lanyard loop removal is just a personal thing. I want to use standard 7rd milspec style mags and the lanyard ring kind of gets in the way on a mag change. I can live with it if the mainspring housing I ordered does not work out. I just didnt want to hack off the loop on the original MS housing. I have a 10 pack of magazines on the way. I will rework them to the gun and try and track down some flat followers.......Nothing fancy. The original norinco Magazaing is excellent. I typically just shoot and carry FMJ ball ammo.

How much do you ave in your Nork? To me its a pretty avg stock shooter. There are better options.

You should have bought this... Just saying

https://www.riflegear.com/p-1455-springfield-defender-mil-spec-1911-5-45acp-pistol.aspx $519 plus shipping and transfer. NIB with a lifetime warranty. Better steel, match grade barrel and no headaches. Just saying.

 

[tokarevfan]

So norinco's are known for good steel quality but barrel steel is soft and barrel fit is poor?
I'm confused. How does steel quality rate on other more common 1911's like springer, s&w, colt etc?

I believe its forged 5100 chomoly steel used in the Norincos. Its heavy duty stuff. Most 1911 manufacturers are useing 4100. Norinco 1911s are the only lower cost guns that are recommended for 460 rowland due to slide and frame material. I am not going that route but its nice to have major components such as slide and frame made from heavy duty material. Its kind of like how AK47 lovers drool over milled recievers vs stamped.

The barrel issue is probably based on the replaceability. Easier to replace a barrel than it is to replace a slide. From a cost perspective anyways. It just kind of sucks that the barrel fitment is the way it is. The barrels themselves would probably last a decent amount of shooting if they were fit properly.

On a positive note even with a serverly damaged barrel the slide doesnt get damaged. The barrel is hardchromed inside and out but the steel is kind of soft underneath. Abrasion resistance should be good and all theoretically should be good to go assuming the lockup is sufficient and the impact surfaces are in spec.

 

[tokarevfan]

How much do you ave in your Nork? To me its a pretty avg stock shooter. There are better options.

You should have bought this... Just saying

https://www.riflegear.com/p-1455-springfield-defender-mil-spec-1911-5-45acp-pistol.aspx $519 plus shipping and transfer. NIB with a lifetime warranty. Better steel, match grade barrel and no headaches. Just saying.

Sure... Like I said... I didnt know the whole barrel nightmare I was in for. Its in my hands though so I am going to have to figure it out. I dont typically sell firearms and I would never dump one that didnt work on a buyer.... goes against my morals.

Thats a nice basic 1911 though. Maybe the next purchase if I get that far. I need to get this one running first before I just start buying multiple 1911s. This norinco is my first so it will have sentimental value once I get it dialed in. Many of my favorites required "parenting" in the early stages. I was not expecting this but maybe god is testing me agian...or maybe John Browning Ha Ha.

Next 1911 probably wont be 45acp. I kind of like faster and flatter shooting rounds.....hence the love for tokarevs. I could see myself with a 38 super eventually. 9mm is possible if ammo is available again and I start putting high round counts into 1911s. I shoot ungodly amounts of cheap 9mm steel cased though my tokarev builds..no issues whatsoever. The design is very forgiving and is made for steel case junk. First things first though.... one obstacle at a time.

The whole dive into 1911 world is basically because of the superior ergonomics. Tokarevs are a bit strange in this area.... much different angle. 1911s fit the hand like a glove for me. Plus the fact that I have been into firearms far to long and growing up watching Steve McQueen (Getaway is my favorite film) and Magnum PI not to have them. Tokarevs have a special place for me because they are really the first pistols I ever really got good on. That and the fact that they are basically an 8mm automag in the 7.62x25 chamberings...just a wonderful designed cartridge. The pistols themselves can often need lots of tweeking though.

Oh... forgot to answer your question. I paid around 400 for the norinco. Might have been $419. Shipping was free but I threw in some extra money anyways (try to support small shops). My dealer and I have a relationship and I am very loyal. He doesnt really charge me transfer fees... I typically throw him some money anyways ( again....try to support small shops). We homeschool so we are always tight on money but I am as generous as I can be when possible.

 

[OldNascar]

If the link is stopping the barrel and not the frame its not going to run long. Either the link will snap or the slide stop will give way. The cases will probably look fine.

You sure about the link being too tight, most times it’s the other way around.

 

[Catfish]

I probably don't understand this right, but isn't your slide stop binding test just a symptom of a too-short barrel link? If so, that can be fixed without replacing the barrel.

 

[tokarevfan]

You sure about the link being too tight, most times it’s the other way around.

That might be the case will modern guns as a way to keep the barrel hitting the VIS area in the frame. Just guessing. Seems like you would be better off with a loose one assuming the barrel clears the upper lugs. Actually I expecting exactly that in the Norinco. Instead it seems to be the opposite.

I may not be understanding this correctly though

 

[OldNascar]

That might be the case will modern guns as a way to keep the barrel hitting the VIS area in the frame. Just guessing. Seems like you would be better off with a loose one assuming the barrel clears the upper lugs. Actually I expecting exactly that in the Norinco. Instead it seems to be the opposite.

I may not be understanding this correctly though

It may pay to get Kuhnhassen’s(sp) book on 1911’s for a better understanding of fitting a link. Links are sold in various lengths but a little use of a file in the right place can get link working as well, good luck.

 

[tokarevfan]

I probably don't understand this right, but isn't your slide stop binding test just a symptom of a too-short barrel link? If so, that can be fixed without replacing the barrel.

From the way I see it.... it should tell you if the slide is clearing the upper barrel lugs (it is) and also tell you if the barrel is binding off the slide stop and not making contact with the frame VIS area.

Seems like the entire top end will shit forward with a longer length... how much I dont know. I am also not sure how this effects other areas of the pistol. I would expect the barrel would ride higher in the slide... there is room for that in the lug area. Not sure about the FP contact. Barrel rides higher its probably going to shoot low.. I can live with that. Worse case Is I would get a taller rear sight if necessary.

I think the barrel lug peening might be from the barrel moveing forward with the bullet during ignition. Not sure though. The barrels on Norincos have a little play in them front to rear.... as do tokarevs. I would say the Headspace is on the generous side. I am not really to worried about that... if it is an issue it will show up upon fireing. Never an issue on bulging cases with tokarevs. Accuracy is compromised a little but I am only looking for combat accuracy with milspec guns. Reliability is more important to me so I dont need everything super tight. I am not a 1911 expert by any means but I have a decent understanding on how they work in terms of timing.....I think Ha Ha.

right now I am just trying to get a better feel for this. Obvioussly I am going to need to order some parts and specific tools....just not sure where to start. I figure a link kit and barrel block is a given. If I can make this barrel work... Great. I will just shoot it until it needs replacing. A new barrel opens up a whole new can of worms though....and its a big can. Seems like increasing lock up and time would also reduce wear. Maybe go with a flatter faced FP stop with a small radius. That would take care of any play in the extractor as well.

I am sure my local dog rescuer has been through this before with Norincos so hopefully he chimes in. Any help is greatly appreciated by others on this forum though. I am just looking for some 1911 brains to pick. I am not going to give it a test shoot until the barrel is impacting the frame properly. As of right now its not shootable from what I can tell. Its just going to put stress on parts that they were not designed for. Sure it will fire.... until something breaks and locks the pistol up. Then I am probably looking at hammering the gun apart... trying to avoid all that.

 

[tokarevfan]

It may pay to get Kuhnhassen’s(sp) book on 1911’s for a better understanding of fitting a link. Links are sold in various lengths but a little use of a file in the right place can get link working as well, good luck.

This has been suggested elsewhere. Yeah... I will eventually get those books. Right now its off the table. Probably if I cannot tweek this barrel correctly and have to go the whole new barrel route. I am trying to avoid that right now. Long term I may eventually send the gun out to a barrel fitting expert if I wear out the factory barrel. I am trying to avoid buying reamers, lug cutters etc. etc. unless I become a full blown 1911 fanatic and want to build them. Might happen... might just buy better built pistols next time. If I eventually end up sending this pistol out I may just go all the way and take the 460 rowland route....but then you are talking cutting the slide for adjustable sights etc. Thats all later down the road if that ever happens though. First I would have to wear out the barrel. I just want to make this pistol functional right now so I can shoot standard ball 230gr ammo.

The barrel itself is in decent shape... I think. Slight peening of the upper lugs but nothing catostrophic from what I am seeing. Thats been dressed down to remove any burrs. Doesnt look like the pistol itself was shot a whole lot so I think it might be salvagable.... temporarily anyways. I may never wear it out. Get it running and carry it is the plan. If I start going high round count I will most likely pick up a milspecish 9mm 1911 to practice with. Even just an inexpensive RIA would work for that. I dont need anything super fancy. I like the basic 1911 layout as is.

I could have went another route for 45acp...Ruger p90 almost happened. I am very familiar with the P85, p89, p91 etc. and like them quite a bit. That being said I prefer tokarevs for shooting and carrying so I finally went with the 1911. Superior pointability, similar trigger, more safety,.....carry comfort is about the same etc. So 1911 it is.

 

[Millie]

This norinco is my first so it will have sentimental value once I get it dialed in

I feel the same way about my 1911 in 9mm....what a problem child, but I love it and shoot it regularly.

My 1911 in .45acp has no issues, so far....yay!!
I wish you much happy shooting with your 1911!

 

[tokarevfan]

I feel the same way about my 1911 in 9mm....what a problem child, but I love it and shoot it regularly.

My 1911 in .45acp has no issues, so far....yay!!
I wish you much happy shooting with your 1911!

If I end up getting a 9mm 1911 I anticipate a few issues. Might pony up and get a built one..... Fusion maybe. Try to elimate as many problems as possible from the get go. Wont be useing cheap mags either.

Right now thats off the table. 9mm is not cheap anymore.

Any shooting with 9mm right now goes to my Berettas or Hi powers.

Unfortunately with ammo availability the way it is I am shooting airguns more than real guns. Kind of hard to just blow through ammo in these interesting times when ammo is hard to replace. I cant even get bird shot for shotgun practice right now. Worst I have ever seen it. If it keeps up I am going to need to buy a bow or start working with a slingshot Ha Ha.

 

[Catfish]

I'm still not convinced you even have a problem, other than an acute case of analysis paralysis. I'm just hoping to learn from this when @John Travis chimes in.

 

[tokarevfan]

I'm still not convinced you even have a problem, other than an acute case of analysis paralysis. I'm just hoping to learn from this when @John Travis chimes in.

Ha Ha.... I like that term. You are the only one I have heard use it in conversation outside myself. Analysis Paralysis is sometimes a plus when working on firearms! Sometimes its better to not do anything if your not sure of what you are doing. Been there before. Luckily I was able to salvage the projects.

I cant see there not being an issue though if the link is binding on the slide stop once the barrel is pulled out of battery. Pretty sure its not supposed to do that on a 1911. Its either going to snap the link or bent the pin. Continue shooting and it would probably hog out the barrel pin hole. Just trying to throw another link in may be a pipe dream from what I have been reading. Other factors come into play.

Believe me though.... I absolutely hope you are right. It would be easier if I had another 1911 to compare it too but thats no the case. So I am kind of going blind on this.... hence my hesitation to just start filing away and having this admitted case of analysis paralysis.

On a positive note my magazines came in today. All the cheap magazine bodies fit the magwell much better than my first sample which had to be reworked a bit. The followers are not 100% reliable though so I need to track down some flat GI style followers. The company threw in a metalform magazine which works. That was nice of them. Anyways.... dont have to spend time reworking 10 magazine bodies now so maybe my luck is changing.

As for Master Travis... yes... I hope he chimes in. Maybe I should break out the Necronomicon and cast a spell. My Force powers dont seem to be working properly since I obtained this Norinco. I have not turned to the dark side yet though.... too many demons on this earth as is right now. Demons that have no appreciation for old school, steel framed firearms. If I find out Master Travis is out shooting Glocks the planet will be doomed.... Wars will escalate... the sea will turn red...cats playing with dogs....mass hysteria.

 

[MacEntyre]

I'll bet a brand new penny he is not shooting Glocks.

 

[tokarevfan]

I'll bet a brand new penny he is not shooting Glocks.

I expect he is still out shooting his Norincos. Might be why I ended up getting one. Some sort of mystical energy that spread into my county from his.

First 1911 I ever shot was a smoothed out stock Norinco way, way back before I entered the military. That probably had something to do with this purchase. I was all about berettas then as thats what I was going to be carrying daily. My dealer would take me shooting and bring his Norinco 1911 though...nice gun. Just a good basic durable no frills combat handgun. Later I shot some friends Kimbers....trigger was so light it scared me. It was pretty though. Every bell and whistle one could imagine. More of a target pistol than anything else...... Still a very nice pistol though.

 

[Catfish]

Ok so I'm sitting here with a Springfield milspec in pieces on the bench. Fully assembled it passes your binding test. With the slide off I can put the barrel on the bed with the lug against the frame and the link still does not bind the slide stop pin.

 

[tokarevfan]

Ok so I'm sitting here with a Springfield milspec in pieces on the bench. Fully assembled it passes your binding test. With the slide off I can put the barrel on the bed with the lug against the frame and the link still does not bind the slide stop pin.

right. Thats how its supposed to work. The barrel is hitting the VIS area correctly. Sounds like you are good to go.

 

[Catfish]

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p.../barrel-links/1911-barrel-link-prod16412.aspx

Wilson barrel link kit, includes 5 different lengths, $27 plus shipping.

 

[tokarevfan]

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p.../barrel-links/1911-barrel-link-prod16412.aspx

Wilson barrel link kit, includes 5 different lengths, $27 plus shipping.

Yes... I looked at these on Wilsons Home. I thought I had a handle on it until I started digging up John's old posts over at another forum.....This was one of his posts...

From Obi John Kenobie

Broken Link

When a link breaks, it's most often caused by either the impact surface in the frame being set too far rearward or the barrel lug sitting too far forward...or both... and the barrel's rearward movement as it unlocks is being stopped by the link instead of the frame. It indicates a bad frame or barrel...or both.

Replacement is usually the simplest and cheapest way to go. Unusual for a Norinco to be that far out of spec, so it was probably a stack-up of tolerances between that particular frame and that particular barrel.

It's also possible that a short link is a player...but that little bug usually gives warning that something is wrong. Turn the pistol upside down and hand-cycle it. If the slide stops short or feels like it hits a snag, you've got a short link...or at least too short for that particular gun, given the tolerance stacking that seems to be there.

It gets worse...

If the link gives way before unlocking is complete...and it usually does... the lugs are usually damaged by the one crash, and probably will shear off or crack soon after, even if the problem that broke the link is corrected. The slide lugs could also suffer some damage.

Check for damage to the locking lugs at the front. If they are rounded off or they have a burr along the top edge at the front...known as flanging..
the slide has whacked the lugs. If the lugs on the barrel or ion the slide have a "stepped" appearance...same thing.

Look at the lower lug at the backside. If there's a dent about halfway between the junction with the barrel and the bottom of the feet, it was hit pretty hard when the barrel got caught between the frame and slide with the locking lugs still engaged.

Hard to tell if the damage was light or heavy without seeing the gun...and also hard to determine if a longer link can be used to keep it from happening again.

Wish I could tell ya more...

end of post





Back to me now. I "think" I understand what he is saying here. Now... I tried holding the gun upsidown and cycling the action. I dont feel anything catching. This pistol does not appear to have been run a whole lot though. I am not sure if the resistance he is talking about here is due to damage or some other aspect of the lockup catching. I am still trying to find some of his older postings in an attempt to figure this out. He is one smart cookie on these Norincos that for sure. My reluctance to just go out and shoot the pistol and the consequences of what will happen seems to jive with what he is saying so I "think" my insticts are close to being correct in terms of how the timing works.... thats good.

Anyways... its a learning process I guess. I will keep digging. This may get to the point where I have to send it out...I really dont want to do that though. I have never had to send a firearm out for repairs... typically I can get a handle on things..... eventually. It has not clicked yet though.

 

[awd51$]

I am near Greensboro, have the books and a 1911 or two. Pm me if you want to get together and see if I can answer some of your ?

 

[Chuckman]

@tokarevfan

This is taken from an another forum.

Posted by 1911Tuner

Norinco

Hey Combatant,

First, an understanding of how the 1911s locked breech works will help.
When the round fires, the slide and bullet are propelled in opposite directions.
When the thrust faces of the locking lugs are forced together by this opposite
movement, the breech locks. The barrel lugs' front faces and the slide lugs' rear faces are the thrust surfaces that engage under pressure.

As you probably know, I got into ferreting out all the Norinco owners that I could find in about a 6-county area...and even got a few from Tennessee.
I found that a small percentage had barrel fit problems that resulted in damaged lugs and excessive headspace that resulted from that damage and deformation. All the Norincos that I saw had headspace that was a little
looser than I'm comfortable with, along with a lot of fore/aft barrel play within the slide...which can contribute to early lug deformation and increased headspace.

Maybe if I define what headspace is just a little differently...and how it can go wrong in a 1911 pistol, you'll know what to keep an eye peeled for. Headspace can be defined in two ways, and it can be excessive in two ways.
One of which is dangerous, and the other only causes erratic ignition and possible innacuracy.

Static Headspace is the distance from the breechface to the chamber stop shoulder with the gun in battery. Static headspace is what it is, and is constant until lug deformation causes it to change. When that occurs,
the breech will open slightly when the gun is fired, allowing the case to become unsupported in the head area. Evidence that headspace is seen
in the shape and condition of the barrel locking lugs on the front faces.
If they take on a noticeable stepped appearance, with the upper areas farther rearward than the lower, original location of the faces...there's a good chance that your static headspace has increased to an excessive level, and this stepped deformation can occur on the slide's lugs as well as the barrel's.


When the lugs deform, the static headspace increases by the same amount as the deformation. Rolled lugs...rounded off at the corners...aren't a sign of excessive headspace, but if allowed to continue for very long can lead to it.
that damage is due to other issues besides the straight-line deformation...also known as "Slap-Seating."

Slap-seating occurs because of excessive barrel endplay in the slide. Lug deformation will occur with enough use, but the less endplay that you have, the longer it's delayed. The reason is simple. More end-play means that the slide and barrel lugs have a longer running start at each other before they
engage...but deformation will occur even with zero endplay. It just takes longer to get started. Likewise, the better the lug engagement that is persent, the more the lugs resist deformation. Full depth delays it. Equal horizontal engagement with all three lugs delays it. Very few production barrel and slide combos provide equal lug engagement. Many don't provide even two. If we're lucky, the single lug that engages horizontally is the first one, which is the strongest and most supported. It will deform slower than the others, but the depth of the lug's engagement determines how slow or fast that will occur.

Working, or "Live" headspace is determined as the difference between static and the length of the cartridge case in the chamber. This will vary according to the length of a given case. You can have minimum static headspace...slip a GAP .45 round into the chamber...and produce excessive headspace. This is the type of excessive that isn't dangerous, and works the same as reaming the chamber too deep.

When you look over your pistol, you can check a few things to determine how well your barrel to slide fit is to some degree by using a dial caliper to measure the barrel's endplay in the slide. Slide off, push the barrel back as far as it will go and measure the distance between the muzzle and the bushing. Then force the barrel fully forward and measure again. The difference is the amount of endplay that you have. Not precise, but close enough for government work.

To check the vertical engagement, put the gun together and slip a 1/8th drill rod, (or even a piece of popsicle stick to fit the breechface) between the hood and breechface. Measure carefully from the top of the slide to the top of the barrel. Take the rod out and measure again. The difference is roughly the amount of vertical engagement. Ideally, you want the full depth of the lug...or about .050 inch. Again, most production guns don't provide that much, and usually fall between .042 and .045 inch. Some don't go that deep.

Checking for equal horizontal engagement, or to determine which lug(s) are bearing is a little more involved. You need to use gauge blocks to determine the locations of the rear lug faces within the slide, and measure the distance from the rear of the barrel hood to the front barrel lug faces. If you have clearance between the hood and the breechface, you need to measure that
and add it to the hood to lug face dimension. You'll probably be surprised to find that only one lug is taking the heat...and it's probaby not going to be lug #1. In case you don't know, #1 lug is the first wall ahead of the chamber, and it doesn't have a slot behind it like the others do.

In searching for a good pistol, you may want to have a machinist whittle out a set of headspace gauges from cold-rolled steel...which will be soft, and not very long-lived, but will be adequate for occasional use. .898 Go and .920
NO-GO...and you can probably get by with just the NO-GO gauge, since I've never found a Norinco or any other factory-built 1911 that wouldn't go to battery on the GO gauge. If the gun goes to battery easily on the NO-GO, you probably need to leave the gun laying unless you can get the price down enough to pay for another barrel and the fitting. Note that all the Norincos would come very close to going to battery on a NO-GO gauge. To the untrained eye, it appeared that they actually did. You'll have to look closely at the rear of the slide and frame alignment to see if there's a difference. If the lugs are deformed and damaged, you can about bet that the headspace is excessive, and in the dangerous direction.

I bought 4 of the Norincos that I looked at, and rebarrelled all 4...because I wasn't comfortable with the barrel fit on 3 pistols...and one because it was so bad that 500 rounds would probably have put it over the NO-GO limit.
The three that were okay were slated for hard use, and would have done fine as they were if they had only been intended for limited use and/or carry.

This man used to be a member of the other forum, lived around Lexington if I recall. He was old and knew his 1911s. I don't know if he is still around.

What @wvsig said, drop-in parts, aren't.

 

[tokarevfan]

Awd51$......Very generous of you. I am a little cautious about meeting up with strangers but I might take you up on your offer if I cannot figure this out. Do you have a lot of experience with 1911s?

I used to live out by the airpoirt many years ago. There was a shop out there ....J&S maybe. Owner was a very nice guy...Larry maybe. Anyways... he did gunsmithing work... Not sure about 1911s though and how good he is with the platform.

Ideally I would like to salvage this barrel and until I learn enough to fit a replacement but it may be outside my skill set. I have never had to farm anything out other than refinishing once I prepped the firearm but I might have to go that route this time. I am kind of reluctant to leave a firearm with a gunsmith...many are just parts changers and dont have specific knowledge or experience to something as refined as a 1911. Sometimes they end up doing more harm than good.

Contemplating picking up a remsport barrel. Felt pretty comfortable fitting it after watching a bunch of youtube videos until I started reading about chambers needing to be reamed. Also found some of John old posts about the Norinco slide lugs being slightly off spec wise.... sheesh.

He mentions it in this post from 2011......

1. Norincos are all machined steel. No castings or MIM. The internals are good enough, but a bit rough and could benefit from a little judicious stoning and touch-up. The ones that I've used have been durable and have held up well over the long haul, but...as with any small part...they're service items and when the guns are in service...are generally replaced at regular intervals.
   
   The barrels are trash. Another expendable service part. Figure on replacing it at 6,000 rounds if...IF...the vertical lug engagement is sufficient. It very often wasn't in the early ones...much better in the later ones. If yours is an early one, you'll beat the barrel lugs to gobbits within 500 rounds...or less.
   
   The slides and frames are as tough as a chunk of pig iron, although rough finish machining is usually evident in most examples. It will vary widely. The #2 slide lug is usually mislocated a few thou too far to the rear. Fitting a new barrel will require adjustment to the barrel lug. .005 inch maximum material removal from the front face of the lug. Any more than that, and you're gambling.
   
   In the 2 dozen or so that I've installed barrels in, I haven't had to remove more than .003 inch, and after a couple hundred rounds to finish seating the lugs...the results have been very good. Accuracy has ranged from good to outstanding, but I don't approach the job primarily with accuracy in mind. My goal is reliability and durability. Accuracy isn't much of a concern. If I get an inch at 25 yards, I'm as happy as a duck on a calm pond, and brag incessantly about it. If I get 2 inches, I'm happy with that, too. The accuracy is always better than with the OEM barrels in any event...and usually much better.
   
   I have one that really will stay in an inch at 50 yards from a Ransom rest using good ammunition. It was purely an accident, and not due to any intent on my part. I guess the gods were smiling on me that day because I probably couldn't do it again in a hundred attempts. Blind squirrels and nuts, y'know...
   

 

[Chuckman]

FWIW, the frame is very solid. It's a great frame with which to do a build. But 1911 builds are generally onerous and challenging, unless you have experience and the Kuhnhausen book.