Space...the final frontier....

Chuckman

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I want this thread to encourage dialogue; its genesis is that my family and I watched Apollo 13 last weekend (one of my favorite movies). I am a space nut, I love all things Apollo/Gemini/Mercury. We had a nice discussion about the merits as well as the controversies of a space program.

What say you? For/against? Why/why not?
 
I am neutral on the space program. GPS, telecommunications etc from satellites have been awesome. Plus, who doesn't like tang? Do we think the market would have led to these innovations on its own? Not sure.

Btw, i before e except after c.
 
I'm split on the subject. On one hand space is the "Last Frontier" but on the other it could be the answer to our rapidly over crowding issue. Wonder how long it would be before we screw that up like we have earth.
How about an under sea world?? Living on the bottom of the ocean would be cool...... for the first day or two anyway.
No breathable air in either location....... I don't know.... Of course I'm old, just leave me here.......
 
The Apollo program created 400,000 jobs (overwhelmingly STEM) and required support of 20,000 business and universities. The downstream effects and spin-offs are immeasurable. But is it the wisest use of tax money? If the product of space flight/space science is the sum of the tax money investment, then probably not. But those jobs, companies, and universities gave back far more in terms of treasure and talent than they received.
 
Have you seen The Martian? Not your typical sci-fi fare. I enjoyed it.
My family have always been space fans. We've been to Cape Canaveral, somewhere there's a picture of my granddaughter standing beside the Space Shuttle when her mom took her to the Smithsonian. My son used to wear the space suit at Discovery Place.
The space program is seen a superfulous by many, but it represents a goal, an ambition, to strive toward. A side benefit are the technological achievements that filter down to general use.
 
@Curmudgeon, that's an interesting list. Of course Velcro comes to mind as probably the one I think of most often.

The space program is probably the best use of public-private partnerships that's been done.
 
Have you seen The Martian? Not your typical sci-fi fare. I enjoyed it.
My family have always been space fans. We've been to Cape Canaveral, somewhere there's a picture of my granddaughter standing beside the Space Shuttle when her mom took her to the Smithsonian. My son used to wear the space suit at Discovery Place.
The space program is seen a superfulous by many, but it represents a goal, an ambition, to strive toward. A side benefit are the technological achievements that filter down to general use.

We saw The Martian on IMAX when it came out. Great movie.
 
Someone needs to come up with a system to be able to travel the solar system in a week or so.

Then FTL travel needs to be discovered so we can venture out.

This whole, reusable rocket stuff, rover on mars, new horizons etc is all fine well and dandy but is almost like spinning the tires on advancement.


BTW, I am a closet space geek
 
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Someone needs to come up with a system to be able to travel the solar system in a week or so.

Then FTL travel needs to be discovered so we can venture out.

This whole, reusable rocket stuff, rover on mars, new horizons etc is all fine well and dandy but is almost like spinning the tires on advancement.


BTW, I am a closet space geek
Worm holes and folded space. ;)
 
Except for about 105 or so exceptions....

But I caught it, thanks....
Being that he was deigning to give his surfeit of knowledge, I chose against either(or is it neither?) disagreeing with his conclusion or making a negative remark to it, and take it as is, I would not feign to be an expert in these matters, no, I forfeit my rights in this matter(no matter how feisty some may find me) and will not inveigle myself into the discussion, my input would be rather a foreign interest in this matter, though I venture to say that herein was not found any heinous rebuke, he being the heir to your knowledge, no obeisances are necessary.

Now, being your neighbor in this matter, I ask you, at your leisure, to rein back in the conversation. What policies should we put forward to reignite the sciences in these fields, to reindustrialize and reinforce, to reinstall and reinvest? And how would we reimburse those that have already spent money? Unless some seismic shift happens, I don’t think we will be seeing any sovereign power seizing back the chariots of space, not because of any lack of knowledge weighing us down, nothing in that vein, but because of the desire. Therein lies the problem, how to we shift the powers of the state from surveillance back to the veil of space, wherein untold wonders are found?
 
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You know all the sparkies that shoot out at the launch pad before a launch? My dad helped invent that. yay! Also a patent for measuring your velocity above mach 1 back in the 50's and 60's.

Anyway, I would go up in a rocket tomorrow if they let me.
 
I too have followed our space program with awe. I was only 6 when we landed on the moon the first time. I have read many books written by some of the more famous astronauts. I think it is very important to maintain a healthy and viable space program, including deep space studies using telescopes, missions to other planets, comets, etc.....

However, I personally believe we can make discoveries using much less expensive means, i.e. robotic missions, rather than sending people to places like Mars. The moon race was born as a cold war race to beat the Soviets there. Sending humans to deep space is exponentially more expensive than sending a lander, rover, or satellite. I'm not saying we should never leave our planet again for deep space. But I think until we have the technology developed and in place, to allow humans to habitate an environment such as Mars for long periods, we should continue our current methods of space exploration. The James Webb telescope is an exciting project that I'm anxious to see get launched next year or the year after.
 
Id love to see more exploration of our planet first, but I dont think we should stop exploring space.

One does have to wonder how long our planet will last.
Yes, its been billions of years, but the last two hundred have been EXTREMELY different than all the ones before it - pollution, consumption of natural resources etc
How much toll does that take on our Earth? I dont know, I dont know that anyone truly does.

Recently Hawkings said we only had about 100 years left on this planet. I dont buy into that, as he said 1000 years just before, but its still something we need to keep in mind.
 
Being that he was deigning to give his surfeit of knowledge, I chose against either(or is it neither?) disagreeing with his conclusion or making a negative remark to it, and take it as is, I would not feign to be an expert in these matters, no, I forfeit my rights in this matter(no matter how feisty some may find me) and will not inveigle myself into the discussion, my input would be rather a foreign interest in this matter, though I venture to say that herein was not found any heinous rebuke, he being the heir to your knowledge, no obeisances are necessary.

Now, being your neighbor in this matter, I ask you, at your leisure, to rein back in the conversation. What policies should we put forward to reignite the sciences in these fields, to reindustrialize and reinforce, to reinstall and reinvest? And how would we reimburse those that have already spent money? Unless some seismic shift happens, I don’t think we will be seeing any sovereign power seizing back the chariots of space, not because of any lack of knowledge weighing us down, nothing in that vein, but because of the desire. Therein lies the problem, how to we shift the powers of the state from surveillance back to the veil of space, wherein untold wonders are found?
Okay. Now you're just showing off. Can I get a mod to change his user name to Charlie Krauthammer?

Heck, Krauthammer couldn't even have done that.
 
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Imagine where we would be if the religions of the world had not held us back....

The burning of the library of Alexandria alone set us back 1000 years

We would be light years ahead, pun intended...

Imagine where we could be
 
Big fan of space, not a fan at all of govt programs. Grew up reading SF voraciously.

That said, I think the original space program was more of a disguised defense program than anything else, and worth it for that reason (and maybe debatably within the Constitution if you squint real hard).

I love the commercial launch vehicles being developed now but what really is exciting are the asteroid mining and Mars settlement (Musk of course) projects that are under way.
 
Worm holes and folded space. ;)

Fold space, slip space, hyperspace, etc. all the same lol.

Even if a wormhole was in our system it would take years to reach it. Hence we need something to be able to travel in system, end to end in a week or so.

Then when FTL travel is discovered, found, reversed engineered etc they improve on sub light travel

I think the biggest thing is developing a power source small, efficient, and reliable enough to use in a ship.

Then the mathematics, star charts, big enough balls to operate and maintain everything.

I wouldn't give a shit if I was the first or last, but only to be able to journey the stars.
 
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Always have been fascinated by aviation/space. To me, it's incredible that a couple fellows from Ohio made their flight in 1903 and just 58 years later, we put a fellow into space...66 years after Kitty Hawk, we put a man on the moon and got him back to earth. I find that amazing...how fast technology progressed.

While I'm in awe of the technology, I'm more awestruck by the participants in the space program; those first ones who sat atop a Redstone, who strapped into a Saturn V and hurled to the moon at speeds I cannot comprehend or the ones who flew the shuttle and docked with the ISS.

Badasses, all.

"The Right Stuff" comes on, and I cannot turn it off. I'll sit there and watch all 3+ hours of it like it's the first time I've ever seen it.
 
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Every single point above is valid to some degree, however, I do not believe we can afford it. I believe at this point in our county's existence, the money could be better spent here on earth.
 
We're going the wrong way.
We've explored every single spec of land on Earth, yet have only witnessed 5% of what the oceans possess.
The sea has everything we need. Food, water, oxygen, sunlight....beauty.
Instead we think of it as our giant trash can while we go lookin around the sky for someplace to land.
Genius.
 
Personally, I don't think that we should do any more space stuff unless there is some commercially viable reason. For example:
Mining asteroids
Mining gas giants

Neither one of them is really viable at the moment. The distances involved, the sheer amounts of power needed to mine and transport materials, it's not there yet. The ocean is a much better alternative at the moment.

Just as an example, people think of asteroid belts as being super crowded, a la "The Empire Strikes Back," but asteroids in the belt are separated by, on average, 100,000 miles from their closest neighbor. And amount of energy needed, for example, to melt and harvest a nickel metallic asteroid, and transport the pieces back to earth...no, we're nowhere near that level.
 
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Go for it.

"We can't afford it!" "It's not practical!"

But we can afford, and it is practical, to spend billions on: Foreign wars both with and against people who hate us? Agriculture subsidies to multi-billion $ mega-farm corporations? Free education, health care, housing, and legal services to illegal immigrants and loafers and their extended families? Lifelong payouts of full salary to politicians who got booted or retired (see previous item regarding freeloaders)? Cash payments to warlords who may -- or may not -- not F with us when our backs are turned? Over-building an intelligence infrastructure that records everything while allowing the physical infrastructure of roads, bridges, seaports, pipelines, etc, to crumble? [Insert Your Favorite Tax-Financed Boondoggle Here]?

It's a false dichotomy to suggest the sea and space are distinct choices, and that only one can win. What we need to do is GET OFF THE OVER-CROWDED LAND. Humans are both natural explorers and natural builders, and individuals can be both at various stages of life.

We're feeding on ourselves as we get crammed closer and closer together, both physically and electronically. Spread out!

It's in our nature.
 
Well said ^^

I'm not anti-space, but as Windini points out we only have a finite amount of resources. Regardless of the money thing..we don't have enough skilled people to do both at the same time.
And, we have the attention span of a gnat.
 
Go for it.

"We can't afford it!" "It's not practical!"

But we can afford, and it is practical, to spend billions on: Foreign wars both with and against people who hate us? Agriculture subsidies to multi-billion $ mega-farm corporations? Free education, health care, housing, and legal services to illegal immigrants and loafers and their extended families? Lifelong payouts of full salary to politicians who got booted or retired (see previous item regarding freeloaders)? Cash payments to warlords who may -- or may not -- not F with us when our backs are turned? Over-building an intelligence infrastructure that records everything while allowing the physical infrastructure of roads, bridges, seaports, pipelines, etc, to crumble? [Insert Your Favorite Tax-Financed Boondoggle Here]?

It's a false dichotomy to suggest the sea and space are distinct choices, and that only one can win. What we need to do is GET OFF THE OVER-CROWDED LAND. Humans are both natural explorers and natural builders, and individuals can be both at various stages of life.

We're feeding on ourselves as we get crammed closer and closer together, both physically and electronically. Spread out!

It's in our nature.
We can't afford it! It isn't practical!

Sometimes, that's people holding you back, and sometimes, that's reality hitting you in the face. Ever see the political cartoon of the 2012 obama "Forward" campaign sticker heading towards a cliff?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/121415/economics-mining-space.asp
The amount of platinum that has been mined all-time in human history is 16 tons, according to Zero Hedge. That means that at today’s prices, an asteroid that matched all historic platinum production would equate to a value of just over $435 million.

That sounds great, but it has been estimated that the costs involved in an asteroid-mining venture would come in around $120 billion US. Ouch. That results in a loss of about $119.5 billion. That is not so great.
Glad you asked. According to InfoMine.com, the accuracy of pre-feasibility studies for traditional, on-earth mines range from 20% to 30%. If a pre-feasibility study conducted on earth is accurate only 20% to 30% of the time, how accurate can a feasibility study be for an asteroid.

Let’s find out.
That means that there's only a 20-30% chance the estimate for how rich a vein on earth will be is accurate. An unknown asteroid, shrouded in nickle-iron would be even less accurate, most likely.

The Bottom Line
The economic prospects of space mining sound wondrous: a star-scape filled with asteroid fueling stations ready to power the next inter-planetary jump; precious-metal enriched asteroids whose value is greater than the gross domestic product of Tonga. The economic reality of mining in space, though, is much more down to earth: The costs are exorbitant, earth-bound feasibility studies are not highly accurate, and even if they were, they can’t be used in space. Until these gaps are closed, it is going to be some time before we can profitably fuel up the old rocket in the garage, load up the snacks and go mine some space platinum.
Da Vinci had a working idea for a flying machine, and for parachutes, and for tanks, but we didn't see them become reality for centuries. Why? Because the technical level wasn't there yet to make them viable, and no amount of hope could change that.

We see today the affects of charging forward with a dream. Check out the energy infrastructure of Germany. They new, in their heart of hearts, that renewable energy is the future, to save the planet. And so, they pushed forward, in spite of reality. And now, they face blackouts because they can't generate enough power. Either they have huge surpluses of power on sunny days, and have no way to store it, and have to sell the excess power at a loss, or not enough on bad days, and have to import gas power from other countries. Because the technology isn't there. That's reality.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/28/g...outs-because-the-wind-and-sun-wont-cooperate/

It's estimated that mining asteroids, the very easiest and most profitable thing to do in space, would cost 120 billion dollars for each individual mining operation. That's private sector money, government efforts would cost many times that. No, it's not feasible at this time.

Am I saying we should abandon efforts? No. I'm just saying that at this moment in time, it's a pipe dream, until the private sector and innovation makes things cheaper.

https://www.space.com/30008-moon-colony-cost-commercial-space-report.html
In 2005, NASA said it would cost 122 billion dollars for the government to make a moon base. With private sector help, it could now be done for 10 billion. Give it another decade or two, and it may be viable. For now, in the short term, the oceans make ore sense. The arctic alone has vast resources, not even considering nodule mining. I remember reading textbooks in 2000 about how Shale mining was impossible to be viable, and now it's helping us become energy dependent from the Saudi's. Nodule mining can make similar stride if we invest.
 
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And, we have the attention span of a gnat.
Actually, that's another good reason to "space out(ward)!"

Our collective attention span has been getting shorter and shorter as technology brings us closer and closer.

Given the distances and times involved in A. space exploration and B. preparation for it, it takes vision and foresight -- long-term thinking and dedication-- to accomplish anything in space. Space travel and/or ocean exploration are our 21st Cathedrals. Visualize today, realize several generations downstream.

We need that depth of vision, that far-sightedness, to perk up our collective need to strive for something greater than us individually, something beyond the self-absorption that defines our current culture.

Go West? Not today; go Space, young man!
 
Being that he was deigning to give his surfeit of knowledge, I chose against either(or is it neither?) disagreeing with his conclusion or making a negative remark to it, and take it as is, I would not feign to be an expert in these matters, no, I forfeit my rights in this matter(no matter how feisty some may find me) and will not inveigle myself into the discussion, my input would be rather a foreign interest in this matter, though I venture to say that herein was not found any heinous rebuke, he being the heir to your knowledge, no obeisances are necessary.

Now, being your neighbor in this matter, I ask you, at your leisure, to rein back in the conversation. What policies should we put forward to reignite the sciences in these fields, to reindustrialize and reinforce, to reinstall and reinvest? And how would we reimburse those that have already spent money? Unless some seismic shift happens, I don’t think we will be seeing any sovereign power seizing back the chariots of space, not because of any lack of knowledge weighing us down, nothing in that vein, but because of the desire. Therein lies the problem, how to we shift the powers of the state from surveillance back to the veil of space, wherein untold wonders are found?

Weird
 
...I don’t think we will be seeing any sovereign power seizing back the chariots of space...

Well written, but I take exception to this one part. With the weaponization of space, that nation which rules low earth orbit will rule the Earth and stars.

Why on Earth those were ever stopped is beyond me.

Because the Mighty Kenyan purposefully yielded that battlefield to our enemy. Everything he did as POTUS was perfectly predictable if only you asked yourself, "What would a dedicated Marxist do in this situation to subvert liberty and sovereignty and further collectivism?"

That said, I think the original space program was more of a disguised defense program than anything else, and worth it for that reason (and maybe debatably within the Constitution if you squint real hard).

You don't have to squint very hard. Maybe JFK had to squint really hard back in the 1960's, but not now.

I was 9 when Neil Armstrong walked on the Moon. He was from a town nearby. My friends from across the street went to California for six months because their father was an engineer for North American Rockwell and he was working on the command module. I was in awe.

I was resolved that I would be the first to walk on Mars. I was devastated when I found out that perfect eyesight was a requirement for a military pilot, the pool from which astronauts are drawn.

I still haven't decided what to be when I grow up.
 
The truth is mankind needs to be challenged in order to content and evolve from our earliest ancestors trying to find a way to survive to putting a man on the moon. declaring a goal of putting a person on Mars or building an underwater city will give people a focus, a reason to learn and try new things. This may be part of what today's society is lacking and therefore imploding on itself. No reason to come together, work together. No reason to do more than focusing on themselves instead of the collective.

Just my .02
 
You know a headline you will never read? "Today, on the International Space Station, astronauts discovered... (anything)". What a waste. A while back I read that the water they drink costs the taxpayers over a million dollars a day. (I understand they now recycle their pee so that's no longer the case). Why did the shuttle exist? To supply the ISS. Why did the ISS get built? To provide a mission for the shuttle. Why did either exist? To send federal money back home to every congressional district.

We can't even use it as a symbol of American achievement. It's the International Space Station. We just pay 85% of the cost and lost the naming rights. They give a ride to someone from every country we want something from, it should be run by the State Department.

And when they blast off, the announcer says, "And there goes the shuttle, carrying first black Eskimo lesbian astronaut on a mission to study how global warming from the US affects the world's poor people worst". They have carried congressmen who fund the program. John Glenn got a ride as payback for obstructing the Senate hearings on the Clintons' campaign finance "irregularities". The head of NASA under Obama said Obama told him to make "reaching out to the Muslim world" one of the space agency's top priorities.

Somebody on here said that religion held back science (it doesn't, click the link below). But politics and leftward ideology sure do.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html
 
Ultimately, it comes down to this: we are an explorer species. It is what we do.

Whether it's following the herds across vast deserts of ice to new continents, across oceans to discover new trade routes or in search of riches, whether it's under the seas to study the peculiar forms of life, or atop rockets that lift us into the heavens - mankind is, in both our basest and highest selves - explorers.

Yes, it's expensive (it always has been in energy, lives, and money), and time consuming, and wrought with failure.

Did that ever stop us before?

What the space program needs - really needs, is more Buck Rogers and less Stephen Hawking.

More people and less robots.

More badasses and less academics.

Robots and academics never discovered a "new world" (in any meaningful way, at least) because they lack the imaginative qualities of the explorer who casts his gaze West and says "I'm going that way."

Our future lies in one of two places - the stars or dying on this planet.
 
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Somebody on here said that religion held back science (it doesn't, click the link below). But politics and leftward ideology sure do.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

Religion has put us back at least 1000 years. Believing in a god by an individual is not religion.

Burning people at the stake because they questioned the religious dogma based on science went on and on and on.. Some would still have it that way

We could be on Mars or beyond, but I digress...
 
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