Structural integrity of deck

Jerzsubbie said:
Was that thing secured to the house with finish nails? Seems to follow what others have said, that the failures we see are due to improper fastening to the house.
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You would be surprised what shiesty contractors do or ignorant homeowners use to "do" things.
 
9outof10mms said:
The 45’s aren’t doing anything for vertical load support on the girders. They’re for lateral stability only. If the girders need vertical deflection support, they’re too small (height) for too long of a span.
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They actually do keep there from being any sag between the posts as well.
 
A couple minor updates after checking things out some more.

1. The bolts appear to be 5/8”.
2. I can’t go with the green plan from earlier, meaning using the same hole on the posts for two different 45° braces. It works in the current config because one is on the front of the post and one on the back. But the back (house side) of the post doesn’t line up with the horizontal board the brace would need to attach to. No big deal, just have to drill two extra holes and stagger two of the braces a bit.
3. The posts are not in concrete.

...which leads to the one major issue. I dug around the one on the corner since it was easily accessible to see if I hit concrete. And find this:

89812DE8-34F1-421B-9251-11F3AED0EFC8.jpeg

When I dug down to see if I get to concrete, or the bottom of the post, and it looks like it went 4-5” into the ground...as there were small roots running under it below that depth.

AC6B52DD-90AA-41DA-9259-B5E64B412CCE.jpeg

So I guess replacing a post will be step 1. I dug a little around the other three and didn’t see the same rot. I’ll assume water runoff on that corner was a contributing factor.

At least I now have a plan in my head to proceed.
 
BigWaylon said:
A couple minor updates after checking things out some more.

1. The bolts appear to be 5/8”.
2. I can’t go with the green plan from earlier, meaning using the same hole on the posts for two different 45° braces. It works in the current config because one is on the front of the post and one on the back. But the back (house side) of the post doesn’t line up with the horizontal board the brace would need to attach to. No big deal, just have to drill two extra holes and stagger two of the braces a bit.
3. The posts are not in concrete.

...which leads to the one major issue. I dug around the one on the corner since it was easily accessible to see if I hit concrete. And find this:

View attachment 253646

When I dug down to see if I get to concrete, or the bottom of the post, and it looks like it went 4-5” into the ground...as there were small roots running under it below that depth.

View attachment 253647

So I guess replacing a post will be step 1. I dug a little around the other three and didn’t see the same rot. I’ll assume water runoff on that corner was a contributing factor.

At least I now have a plan in my head to proceed.
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And the plot thickens!!!
 
BigWaylon said:
A couple minor updates after checking things out some more.

1. The bolts appear to be 5/8”.
2. I can’t go with the green plan from earlier, meaning using the same hole on the posts for two different 45° braces. It works in the current config because one is on the front of the post and one on the back. But the back (house side) of the post doesn’t line up with the horizontal board the brace would need to attach to. No big deal, just have to drill two extra holes and stagger two of the braces a bit.
3. The posts are not in concrete.

...which leads to the one major issue. I dug around the one on the corner since it was easily accessible to see if I hit concrete. And find this:

View attachment 253646

When I dug down to see if I get to concrete, or the bottom of the post, and it looks like it went 4-5” into the ground...as there were small roots running under it below that depth.

View attachment 253647

So I guess replacing a post will be step 1. I dug a little around the other three and didn’t see the same rot. I’ll assume water runoff on that corner was a contributing factor.

At least I now have a plan in my head to proceed.
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Oooff!

Your project just made a "cha-ching" sound.
 
BigWaylon said:
A couple minor updates after checking things out some more.

1. The bolts appear to be 5/8”.
2. I can’t go with the green plan from earlier, meaning using the same hole on the posts for two different 45° braces. It works in the current config because one is on the front of the post and one on the back. But the back (house side) of the post doesn’t line up with the horizontal board the brace would need to attach to. No big deal, just have to drill two extra holes and stagger two of the braces a bit.
3. The posts are not in concrete.

...which leads to the one major issue. I dug around the one on the corner since it was easily accessible to see if I hit concrete. And find this:

View attachment 253646

When I dug down to see if I get to concrete, or the bottom of the post, and it looks like it went 4-5” into the ground...as there were small roots running under it below that depth.

View attachment 253647

So I guess replacing a post will be step 1. I dug a little around the other three and didn’t see the same rot. I’ll assume water runoff on that corner was a contributing factor.

At least I now have a plan in my head to proceed.
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That’s definitely not what you wanna see.

Good luck hauling 4 12’ 6x6s in your truck. I managed 2 16-footers in my Tacoma but it was just barely doable.

13632F29-8A51-46FA-A76F-015457423EC7.jpeg
 
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rdinatal said:
Easy. Just use two cars, one on each end. Yeah, bad idea but I'm sure its been done before, somewhere.
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I did it as a kid on a bike with my friend. We found a ladder in the woods. We thought it would be a good idea to put our heads through the first and last steps while each rides our own bike. It worked awesomely for about 5 seconds. Then I found out what ladder tastes like and I'm sure he has a stiff neck to this day.
 
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@BigWaylon, just pull your vehicle over the post and tie them up to the front and rear bumper. My dad hauled a 30' pole for an antenna under his truck one time like that.

I have an 18' trailer if you need to haul some post or need help.

It might just be cheaper and easier to tear the deck down and cut the post off even with the ground.
 
Project def just much more pricey with that discovery with price of treated lumber right now.
 
So now it’s obvious why the braces are there. The post were never installed correctly. The difficult part now is how to drill or dig a big enough hole next to poured concrete to set a concrete pillar down in the dirt. A straight hole of course. Don’t hesitate to rent an auger and even that creates a challenge.

Putting in the post with two people shouldn’t be that difficult. Do one at a time. Either pour the form for the underground pillar or buy a preformed one. Expandable foam around the post before filling back with dirt.

It’s good you found out about the post before removing the cross reinforcements. And people wonder why we have codes and inspections.
 
BlackGun said:
Either pour the form for the underground pillar or buy a preformed one. Expandable foam around the post before filling back with dirt.
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I would think that bracing the post on both sides with a 2x4 to ground to stabilize it temporarily should bold the weight of the deck as well as it has been. Then using a shovel or post hole digger and pouring a column of coNcrete to create a piling underneath would be sufficient. Normally wood rots in concrete anyway, so this may be a solid approach.
 
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noway2 said:
I would think that bracing the post on both sides with a 2x4 to ground to stabilize it temporarily should bold the weight of the deck as well as it has been. Then using a shovel or post hole digger and pouring a column of coNcrete to create a piling underneath would be sufficient. Normally wood rots in concrete anyway, so this may be a solid approach.
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You’re saying leave the post as-is and adding a concrete piling below it? And the concrete would form up into the voids of the bottom of the post?

Just making sure that’s what you meant.
 
BigWaylon said:
You’re saying leave the post as-is and adding a concrete piling below it? And the concrete would form up into the voids of the bottom of the post?

Just making sure that’s what you meant.
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I am certainly no expert at this ..... Probably know enough to be dangerous more than anything.

What I was thinking was that assuming it's at ground level, you would probably want to jack the deck up slightly and pour the concrete to ground level, basically making a footing for the post to sit on. I like the idea posted above about getting a bracket to embed in the concrete a lot better. If you want concrete above ground you would obviously need a form. Having the post sit on concrete, I would think would be better than sitting on dirt, but you've still got the concrete - wood barrier which ultimately means rot. The bracket would separate the two.
 
Funny, when you started this thread I almost posted that you were gonna end up rebuilding a significant part of the deck. These old DIY projects are like a tattered sweater, pull one thread and it just keeps coming.
 
BlackGun said:
It’s good you found out about the post before removing the cross reinforcements. And people wonder why we have codes and inspections.
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In all seriousness...the deck was part of the original construction. Wouldn’t it have needed an inspection?
 
If it were me (which means I'm probably wrong) I'd weld up some braces out of thick walled square or rectangle tube like so and bolt it to the post and beams. Stout and less obtrusive.

upload_2020-10-6_15-35-55.png


I have an 18' flatbed you can borrow (for a few beers) to haul lumber.
 
Ok, so after looking at the PDF for Meck, I have a problem. Forget how many things don’t meet those specs as it currently sits. If I wanted to change to all 45°-60° braces, and meet the “not less 1/3 post length”, it’s not possible on the two ends. The closest I could get is ~33” one direction 39” in the other...which is definitely not 45° to the naked eye. This is me assuming the 60° angle is measured such that the brace runs more horizontal than vertical. Anybody know for sure?

If that’s the case, I could reconfigure just the center section and wind up with a decent opening. Just not sure if the aesthetics. It would drive some OCD people crazy. Something like this:

B732D3D5-F20D-4387-B484-5D44E4075436.jpeg
 
BigWaylon said:
This is me assuming the 60° angle is measured such that the brace runs more horizontal than vertical. Anybody know for sure?
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Educated guess says that its measured from the horizontal going upwards. What are the dimensions of the height and width of the sections. Also what is the exact verbiage of the code you're referencing. This shouldn't be too difficult to figure something out.
 
BigWaylon said:
Ok, so after looking at the PDF for Meck, I have a problem. Forget how many things don’t meet those specs as it currently sits. If I wanted to change to all 45°-60° braces, and meet the “not less 1/3 post length”, it’s not possible on the two ends. The closest I could get is ~33” one direction 39” in the other...which is definitely not 45° to the naked eye. This is me assuming the 60° angle is measured such that the brace runs more horizontal than vertical. Anybody know for sure?

If that’s the case, I could reconfigure just the center section and wind up with a decent opening. Just not sure if the aesthetics. It would drive some OCD people crazy. Something like this:

View attachment 254032
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If it works for you do it.
BigWaylon said:
In all seriousness...the deck was part of the original construction. Wouldn’t it have needed an inspection?
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Yes but that doesn’t mean they catch code issues. Sometimes they assume and sometimes they have no clue what is code. Sometimes I’m on site when they do my inspections and ask me what it should be for electrical and HVAC. I’ve had inspections where they didn’t even climb into the attic space or crawl space. When they give you 15 inspections for 8 hours they just protect their jobs by getting on site and meeting quotas.
 
noway2 said:
Educated guess says that its measured from the horizontal going upwards. What are the dimensions of the height and width of the sections. Also what is the exact verbiage of the code you're referencing. This shouldn't be too difficult to figure something out.
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From the PDF posted above:

0441B577-7614-47BD-BF4D-1558689FFD77.png

Center of post to center of post is 70”. Post from patio to top is 98”. But I’d assume they’re not measuring from the patio, but the whole length of post. And you have to add some amount of the board the other end attaches to, which is sitting on top of the post. And you’d have to account for how the braces can’t overlap at the top. I just think I’m short by less than a foot...but enough to now it’s not 45° without even measuring it.
 
BigWaylon said:
Center of post to center of post is 70”. Post from patio to top is 98”
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By the definition, the span would be the open space between the posts. As they’re 70” center to center you’re less than 7’ and can go with the option on. the left. I am reading this as the bottom of the support piece must be at least 1/3 of the way down, roughly 33” or say 36” down from the top of the post given the need to add some. For the angle, I’d go with what they’re pointing to and that snake needs to be between 45 and 60 degrees. Speaking in rough numbers if you need to go down 3’ then a 45 deg would go inward three feet. Since the span is about 7 foot, you can make these longer to join up for aesthetics. I think the trigonometry will work for you. I can run some numbers and do a sketch in the morning if someone else doesn’t jump in here.

was this the outer two sections or the center section?
 
noway2 said:
By the definition, the span would be the open space between the posts. As they’re 70” center to center you’re less than 7’ and can go with the option on. the left. I am reading this as the bottom of the support piece must be at least 1/3 of the way down, roughly 33” or say 36” down from the top of the post given the need to add some. For the angle, I’d go with what they’re pointing to and that snake needs to be between 45 and 60 degrees. Speaking in rough numbers if you need to go down 3’ then a 45 deg would go inward three feet. Since the span is about 7 foot, you can make these longer to join up for aesthetics. I think the trigonometry will work for you. I can run some numbers and do a sketch in the morning if someone else doesn’t jump in here.

was this the outer two sections or the center section?
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It was one of the outer. They’re very close in size, with the inner much wider. No issues doing 45° in the center, except does that PDF mean you have to do the right-side option for >7’? If that’s the case, I might as well cancel the whole thing. I mean, it looks like the spans are over 7’ in the pic CH1 posted, assuming those are 4’ wide pieces of lattice...but who knows?

70” doesn’t even give me 36” as the mid point, so if I’m going that far down I can’t. And that’s if I was using a single hole for the two braces to meet at the top. I can’t do that unless you’re allowed to use a spacer off the post so that the brace lays flat.

If I could space the brace off the post, I think it’s doable. Anybody know?

Based off the PDF, it looks like there should be a bolt through the braces where they cross...and there’s not.
 
You’re right. I think your diagram in post #75 may be the way to go with the numbers. Yes, there should be a bolt on both ends.
 
noway2 said:
You’re right. I think your diagram in post #75 may be the way to go with the numbers. Yes, there should be a bolt on both ends.
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But does the PDF description mean I have to use the cross braces like I currently have for the middle section since it’s over 7’?

there’s a bolt on both ends...but not in the middle where they cross
 
What is the measurement of the middle section


Eta.

Are you going to sell in the near future. If not. Who cares. By the time you sell it will need rebuilt anyway
 
BigWaylon said:
But does the PDF description mean I have to use the cross braces like I currently have for the middle section since it’s over 7’?
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It’s hard to go by descriptions and what not, BUT, I think it’s the opposite, like you drew in post 75. You may not be able to make the 45-60 on the ends, but have the span on the middle.

there’s a bolt on both ends...but not in the middle where they cross
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the way I read it, you’d need it bolted at both ends. Gotta love codes and specs, so much room for interpretation.

Maybe one of the contractors can chime in here, but I think we’re close to identifying what will work or not per code.
 
LeeMajors said:
What is the measurement of the middle section


Eta.

Are you going to sell in the near future. If not. Who cares. By the time you sell it will need rebuilt anyway
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Not planning on selling for at least 5 years.

~9’ for the middle.
 
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