Subsonic 223

Sasquatch

Sasquatch

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I got a deal recently on some pulled 69 and 77 grain HPBT bullets with the intent to make some distance-accurate loads for 3-gun.

But shooting the other day, and loving the 308 in subsonic, the kids asked for subsonic .223. I've seen 'internet' recipes for 55 grain subsonic, but less sure about heavier ones. Have people loaded these successfully? My barrel twist is 1:8.

Regards,
 
Atomix used to make it and sell it at Cabelas.

I know that for the longest time, they had issues with stabilization, but with all the market research into 300 BLK, they have probably figured it out.

1/8 is probably too little twist for heavier loads.
 
Ikarus1 said:
A subsonic. 223 is called 22lr. I would just get an M&P15-22 and enjoy it alot more
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This is just incorrect

There’s a significant difference in the energy levels.

77gr at 1050fps is 188ftlbs
55gr at 1050fps is 135ft lbs
40gr at 1050fps is 98ft lbs


It’s not something you’d shoot thousands of rounds of in 223. They’re fun to shoot, they stabilize just fine, and they provide lethal energy (assuming proper placement)

If you want to shoot mag after mag after mag, it’s not the right cartridge. But it is useful and more powerful than .22lr. And it’s fun to do it just for the sake of doing it
 
Aguila makes 60gr subsonics in 22lr which make all those points about energy moot and they stabilize out of of 1-9 and faster barrels.

Get a 22lr AR conversion kit, shoot Aguila SSS rounds and it'll probably be cheaper than experimenting with something that has been hashed out pretty well in the past decade.
 
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Meh, it's less than twice the energy of 22lr, even with 77gr. It's not viable financially and who cares about a little more energy for plinking anyway? I certainly wouldn't use it for any serious work.
 
Ikarus1 said:
Aguila makes 60gr subsonics in 22lr which make all those points about energy moot and they stabilize out of of 1-9 and faster barrels.

Get a 22lr AR conversion kit, shoot Aguila SSS rounds and it'll probably be cheaper than experimenting with something that has been hashed out pretty well in the past decade.
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That's a good idea because they don't stabilize in most 22lr barrels, but probably would in a 1:8 223 barrel. Probably won't be very accurate though due to the small caliber difference.
 
Flashpoint said:
That's a good idea because they don't stabilize in most 22lr barrels, but probably would in a 1:8 223 barrel. Probably won't be very accurate though due to the small caliber difference.
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I have heard that the 40gr out of a normal AR twist barrel is a 25yd affair and the 60gr ones are good out to 75 but idk.

Personally I wouldn't waste good 69 or 77 grainers on trying to reinvent the already proven and cost effective wheel. But let us know how it turns out.
 
Yes, after this discussion you guys are right- considering the normal price for these bullets, it's not smart for me to 'waste' their benefit (accuracy) on lower noise. I'll just use them for precision(-ish) loads.
 
Ikarus1 said:
Aguila makes 60gr subsonics in 22lr which make all those points about energy moot and they stabilize out of of 1-9 and faster barrels.

Get a 22lr AR conversion kit, shoot Aguila SSS rounds and it'll probably be cheaper than experimenting with something that has been hashed out pretty well in the past decade.
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I have some of those SSS rounds; they feed like crap...it’s a .22 short case and an extremely long bullet that hangs up on feed ramps/chambers. And for the cost of the SSS bullets (11 cents per round) added to the cost of the conversion kit, you can load hundreds and hundreds of 223 subs

What’s the problem with someone loading ammunition? It’s actually got merit; keep a 10rd mag of subs handy just in case and there’s no need to swap the bolt out for a .22lr conversion...just change a mag

And if you call the idea being shot down by people who don’t see the point “hashed out”...sure, I guess, but just because someone doesn’t accept my or anyone else’s reasons for loading 223 subs because THEY don’t like it doesn’t mean the concept doesn’t have value for someone else


@Sas quatch

I’ve found 55gr soft points are great for 223 subs. Super cheap and super fun!
 
11B CIB said:
I have some of those SSS rounds; they feed like crap...it’s a .22 short case and an extremely long bullet that hangs up on feed ramps/chambers. And for the cost of the SSS bullets (11 cents per round) added to the cost of the conversion kit, you can load hundreds and hundreds of 223 subs

What’s the problem with someone loading ammunition? It’s actually got merit; keep a 10rd mag of subs handy just in case and there’s no need to swap the bolt out for a .22lr conversion...just change a mag

And if you call the idea being shot down by people who don’t see the point “hashed out”...sure, I guess, but just because someone doesn’t accept my or anyone else’s reasons for loading 223 subs because THEY don’t like it doesn’t mean the concept doesn’t have value for someone else


@Sas quatch

I’ve found 55gr soft points are great for 223 subs. Super cheap and super fun!
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For what, 10x the price of 22lr that does the exact same thing? Rock on dude. Not to mention the time and effort to load. Do they even cycle the action?
 
Flashpoint said:
For what, 10x the price of 22lr that does the exact same thing? Rock on dude. Not to mention the time and effort to load. Do they even cycle the action?
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lol ten times? The above mentioned 60gr SSS rounds (that don’t cycle or feed well) are 11 cents each online not counting shipping. Not to mention my .22 bolt action rifle is manually cycled, so not really an issue by comparison. Factor in a $250 conversion kit for an AR and it’s more expensive.

223 Subs:
55gr from butter are 5 cents each
CCI #400s are 3.3 cents
3.1gr Titegroup = 1.2 cents per charge
Brass: Free
Total: 9.5 cents

I can also reload these. Good luck loading .22 rimfire when the shelves are bare

I’d also like to point out I’m not shooting hundreds of these a month. Maybe a few here or there for kicks. But I’ve personally done the legwork and figured it out for myself. But the potential is there, they DO work, and it’s not expensive or pointless as internet lore likes to constantly tout.
 
Just to point it out for those who may not know, there is no powder gassy enough to cycle a AR15 while still keeping the bullet subsonic. It's a bolt gun affair or a single chot AR.
 
11B CIB said:
lol ten times? The above mentioned 60gr SSS rounds (that don’t cycle or feed well) are 11 cents each online not counting shipping. Not to mention my .22 bolt action rifle is manually cycled, so not really an issue by comparison. Factor in a $250 conversion kit for an AR and it’s more expensive.

223 Subs:
55gr from butter are 5 cents each
CCI #400s are 3.3 cents
3.1gr Titegroup = 1.2 cents per charge
Brass: Free
Total: 9.5 cents

I can also reload these. Good luck loading .22 rimfire when the shelves are bare

I’d also like to point out I’m not shooting hundreds of these a month. Maybe a few here or there for kicks. But I’ve personally done the legwork and figured it out for myself. But the potential is there, they DO work, and it’s not expensive or pointless as internet lore likes to constantly tout.
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As of right now, 2019....The shelves are flush with various quality brands of rimfire for less than the price of butters 5 cent projectiles, esp CCI SV which is subsonic in most guns. Lots of cartridges are great with subs, I wouldn't consider .223 or .308 to be great at either subsonic or mousefart rounds as anything but an experiment. It's been done and discussed a thousand times on every reloading related forum for the last 25 years. Nearly every thread ends the same, and basically it ain't worth the time or money involved unless you're really bored or really need something to shoot with a supressor and bolt gun and need the energy of a mild .380 round
 
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Ikarus1 said:
As of right now, 2019....The shelves are flush with various quality brands of rimfire for less than the price of butters 5 cent projectiles, esp CCI SV which is subsonic in most guns. Lots of cartridges are great with subs, I wouldn't consider .223 or .308 to be great at either subsonic or mousefart rounds as anything but an experiment. It's been done and discussed a thousand times on every reloading related forum for the last 25 years. Nearly every thread ends the same, and basically it ain't worth the time or money involved unless you're really bored or really need something to shoot with a supressor and bolt gun and need the energy of a mild .380 round
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Every thread on it has opinions like yours, yes. If you don’t want to do it, then don’t. But don’t clutter actual facts (you said it’s not worth the money but at 9.5 cents per its not exactly breaking the bank) with your OPINION of the topic. If it’s not worth YOUR time, then don’t. If it’s not worth 9.5 cents of YOUR money, then don’t. But the actual facts of the matter say it’s neither expensive nor difficult. And we are talking about subsonic ammo, so if you want to compare HV rimfire that’s 3-4 cents per round, it’s not a valid comparison. But to come in here and say “it’s not worth it”...well, that’s plain opinion and very subjective.

My load I posted is the cheapest route I’ve taken but there are more expensive bullets in 223 and 308 made to expand and offer <100yd lethality which serve an even greater purpose (again, to some, not all).

And it takes one shooting, and we’ve had quite a few recently, to empty the shelves that are currently “flush”.
 
CCI SV = 1080 FPS nominally subsonic in most 22lrs above sea level. Not High Velocity. Less than 5 cents per round when bought in bulk
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci...ammo-40-grain-lead-round-nose-0035-p-884.aspx

Haven't seen a run on rimfire since the prepper movement basically took a nosedive in 2016.
Mass shootings didn't drive the drought from 2012-2016, a perfect storm of new shooters, prepper hoarding, and lots of new rimfire guns on the market like the MP15-22 did that.
 
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It’s actually 1070fps. But no matter what facts are presented, you’ll cherry pick and find some other reason to argue it. We get it, you don’t think it’s valid.

And sure, we haven’t had a run in a couple years but the point is it could happen any time. Unless you saw Sandy Hook coming in advance :rolleyes:
 
Flashpoint said:
Meh, it's less than twice the energy of 22lr, even with 77gr. It's not viable financially and who cares about a little more energy for plinking anyway? I certainly wouldn't use it for any serious work.
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There you go cherry picking again :rolleyes::rolleyes: You know you like that .380 FMJ-like 180ft/lbs of awe inspiring quiet power!

Next up, casting pellets for .357 Benjamin Rogue airguns
 
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If shooting a bolt-action gun, then loading subsonic 223 makes a little more sense.

If loading for a 223 AR, it doesn't, at least not to me. Operating the charge handle for every shot of an AR is not as easy as a bolt gun. I've done it for testing longer-than-mag-length loads. Yeah, you can do it, but it just isn't the same.

AR conversions do not cost $250, they are going for about $150 now (including 3 mags). Since the OP did not state the specific use other than for kids (sounds like plinking to me) then the muzzle energy does not seem to be of any concern.

As for 22LR being hard to find sometimes, so is 223, and 9mm, and reloading supplies. Titegroup was damn near impossible to find for a while. Right now everything is abundant and cheap, so whether it is factory ammo or reloading supplies, stock up. Good 22LR ammo is going for well under $0.05 each right now. That is why I have stocked up, I probably have over 15k of 22LR right now.

Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you should.
 
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Toprudder said:
If shooting a bolt-action gun, then loading subsonic 223 makes a little more sense.

If loading for a 223 AR, it doesn't, at least not to me. Operating the charge handle for every shot of an AR is not as easy as a bolt gun. I've done it for testing longer-than-mag-length loads. Yeah, you can do it, but it just isn't the same.

AR conversions do not cost $250, they are going for about $150 now (including 3 mags). Since the OP did not state the specific use other than for kids (sounds like plinking to me) then the muzzle energy does not seem to be of any concern.

As for 22LR being hard to find sometimes, so is 223, and 9mm, and reloading supplies. Titegroup was damn near impossible to find for a while. Right now everything is abundant and cheap, so whether it is factory ammo or reloading supplies, stock up. Good 22LR ammo is going for well under $0.05 each right now. That is why I have stocked up, I probably have over 15k of 22LR right now.

Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you should.
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I googled “.22 conversion kit” and the first three results were all over $200. YMMV

Again, I’m not saying I shoot hundreds of rounds of subsonic 223. I didn’t even when I had a .223 bolt gun. But if you only want to shoot a handful of them, it doesn’t make sense TO ME to go buying conversion kits, swapping parts out etc. And being a reloader, knowing I can do something and I’ve got the tool in the toolbox is important.

And just because other people don’t agree doesn’t make it unnecessary or useless...it’s allllllll subjective. There is nothing wrong with providing the actual data of functional subsonic 223 and letting people decide. When folks come in and ask and all they get is “that’s just .22 but less fun” rather than actual facts, I’ve got an issue with it (not saying you did this, toprudder)
 
11B CIB said:
I googled “.22 conversion kit” and the first three results were all over $200. YMMV
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Primary Arms has them listed for $159.99, and they have a $10 off coupon for Father's day.

And just because other people don’t agree doesn’t make it unnecessary or useless...it’s allllllll subjective. There is nothing wrong with providing the actual data of functional subsonic 223 and letting people decide. When folks come in and ask and all they get is “that’s just .22 but less fun” rather than actual facts, I’ve got an issue with it (not saying you did this, toprudder)
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I don't disagree with that at all.
 
I have no real dog in the fight as I don't have a need or desire for a sub .223 round or anything. But arguing whether or not it is feasible or even worth it is silly. Think of all the other crap we do with our firearms that makes no sense. If someone wants to load .223 to subsonic levels, rock and roll. If someone wants to see how hot they can safely make a .223, rock and roll. The OP didn't mention any use other than "plinking", and when it comes to plinking, its all about the jollies and lollies.

Now, if he came in and said "I want to load a subsonic .223 for home defense." then we can argue the ballistic differences between sub sonic .22lr and subsonic .223. But as it stands, trying to argue that it isn't useful is silly.

Question: Can you load .223 subsonic. Who is doing it?
Answer: Yes, you can. 11B is doing it successfully.
 
The operative clause was " the kids asked for subsonic .223" with which to plink.

Speaking from experience with my 3 and about 50 more kids, 22lrs and kids go together like peas and carrots. You won't be loading like 11B (a few...not in volume, not often I think were the words use etc) and plinking with kids effectively.

1 kid, 1 $130 marlin 795, and 1 brick of 500 will keep them occupied for quite a while.
 
Ikarus1 said:
The operative clause was " the kids asked for subsonic .223" with which to plink.

Speaking from experience with my 3 and about 50 more kids, 22lrs and kids go together like peas and carrots. You won't be loading like 11B (a few...not in volume, not often I think were the words use etc) and plinking with kids effectively.

1 kid, 1 $130 marlin 795, and 1 brick of 500 will keep them occupied for quite a while.
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Granted, but that wasn't his question bro. Not taking them shooting at all, or using Airsoft is even more cost effective.
 
NKD said:
Seen so many .22 conversions choke. Meh.
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Ikarus1 said:
That's why I just recommend the $299 M&P15-22 ;)
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I was out last weekend with some friends. I had my AR pistol with a conversion, and one of my friends had his 15/22. I had just one malfunction out of probably 100 rounds, my friend had several malfunctions with his 15/22. It all came down to the ammo, we were both using cheap ammo. When I run mini-mags in mine, or even Remington Thunderbolts, it has been virtually flawless. I don’t like the Thunderbolts, though, as they lead the barrel and chamber extension.

I saw a guy at the range years ago with a 22 conversion in a full-auto M16. I don’t know how many rounds he put downrange in full-auto without a malfunction. He told me the original conversion he bought did not work well, he ended up getting the stainless steel version and had very good luck with it. I don’t remember what ammo he was using, though.

That is a big part of the problem with 22, the quality of the ammo is all over the map. I’ve had bad luck with a lot of the Aguila ammo. That is the reason I bought a 22 revolver, it is a fun way to get rid of crap ammo.
 
Toprudder said:
I was out last weekend with some friends. I had my AR pistol with a conversion, and one of my friends had his 15/22. I had just one malfunction out of probably 100 rounds, my friend had several malfunctions with his 15/22. It all came down to the ammo, we were both using cheap ammo. When I run mini-mags in mine, or even Remington Thunderbolts, it has been virtually flawless. I don’t like the Thunderbolts, though, as they lead the barrel and chamber extension.

I saw a guy at the range years ago with a 22 conversion in a full-auto M16. I don’t know how many rounds he put downrange in full-auto without a malfunction. He told me the original conversion he bought did not work well, he ended up getting the stainless steel version and had very good luck with it. I don’t remember what ammo he was using, though.

That is a big part of the problem with 22, the quality of the ammo is all over the map. I’ve had bad luck with a lot of the Aguila ammo. That is the reason I bought a 22 revolver, it is a fun way to get rid of crap ammo.
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Yep I have just resigned to using CCI rimfire almost exclusively after having bad batches of Winchester M-22s and others. The Federal bulk from Wallyworld and the Blue 500 packs are about the lowest priced bulk I will go to.

The CCI 40gr CPRNs with the AR on the box of 300 are really good in those AR conversions and the 15-22
 
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Toprudder said:
I was out last weekend with some friends. I had my AR pistol with a conversion, and one of my friends had his 15/22. I had just one malfunction out of probably 100 rounds, my friend had several malfunctions with his 15/22. It all came down to the ammo, we were both using cheap ammo. When I run mini-mags in mine, or even Remington Thunderbolts, it has been virtually flawless. I don’t like the Thunderbolts, though, as they lead the barrel and chamber extension.

I saw a guy at the range years ago with a 22 conversion in a full-auto M16. I don’t know how many rounds he put downrange in full-auto without a malfunction. He told me the original conversion he bought did not work well, he ended up getting the stainless steel version and had very good luck with it. I don’t remember what ammo he was using, though.

That is a big part of the problem with 22, the quality of the ammo is all over the map. I’ve had bad luck with a lot of the Aguila ammo. That is the reason I bought a 22 revolver, it is a fun way to get rid of crap ammo.
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True. Ammo is everything in a .22 auto. Any .22 auto.
And, I have seen many conversions that work great. But about 50/50 on those.
 
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