Trail braking - discuss

If I remember right, it will stand the bike up as you use that rear brake
I'll be honest, not ridding a 'quick' bike in a while, last year was just the 11hp dualsport
 
trail braking is standard riding technic for road racing. it is lightly using the FRONT brake to put weight on the front wheel. it works great.
way too many people think it means dragging the rear brake which unloads the front wheel and makes the bike go wide or try to stand up.
trail braking is really great for riding downhill in the mountains on downhill switchbacks.
 
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bladesmith3 said:
trail braking is standard riding technic for road racing. it is lightly using the FRONT brake to put weight on the front wheel. it works great.
way too many people think it means dragging the rear brake which unloads the front wheel and makes the bike go wide or try to stand up.
trail braking is really great for riding downhill in the mountains on downhill switchbacks.
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So useless for linked brake bikes?
 
AppFan said:
So useless for linked brake bikes?
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My fat pig of a bike has linked Brembo brakes. I can use my rear brakes when I’m winding down hill through the twisties to avoid the front fork dive that Harley touring bikes with stock suspension are so notorious for.

But I keep reading about true trail braking being the application of the front brake as bladesmith posted.
 
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bladesmith3 said:
trail braking is standard riding technic for road racing. it is lightly using the FRONT brake to put weight on the front wheel. it works great.
way too many people think it means dragging the rear brake which unloads the front wheel and makes the bike go wide or try to stand up.
trail braking is really great for riding downhill in the mountains on downhill switchbacks.
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Ah, so I was def wrong, thanks man
 
Can you trail brake with linked brakes? on most bikes.
So far as trail braking, you can still use the lever for the (right) front brake, so trail braking is unaffected. It's the foot brake that activates the rear and (left) front brake together.
here is a quick video. tons of info on YouTube
 
We should defer to @Stick Man and @Friday. I was not an aggressive trail braker (and I didn't have today's tires); we got our hard braking done early and trailed it just a bit to settle the bike on its suspension as we tipped in at the apex. My favorite turns were ones you could square off, I hated sweepers (still do). The main thing I found helpful was getting on the gas early and riding the rear wheel out. I feared washing out the front, but I remember Kenny Roberts saying "the front can't slide if the rear is spinning". The bikes I rode didn't have a lot of power so I could modulate the rear wheel pretty easily. If you are nervous about the front, steer it with the rear. Worked for me anyway.
 
Ahh, I like this. Trail braking is one of those things people will argue about like Ford VS Chevy, Helmans or Dukes, lol. My racing school instructor back in the day, said the super fast guys were either braking or accelerating, lol, not much coasting. Now, I trail brake pretty hard, with the front and occasionally with the rear brake. I will admit, I will back the rear tire in, sliding it a little to set up a corner, or sometimes because I'm trying to pass someone aggressively and brake super late, and the rear tire just has no weight on it, (sometimes the rear will be off the ground because I'm braking so hard). Most of the time, I trail brake with the front to about the "tip in" of the corner, but I'm sometimes also using the rear brake to help settle the bike and hunker it down a little. I will actually be on the rear brake, and accelerating at the same time....yeah, I know, doesn't sound like it makes any sense huh, lol. When you have a bike that's notorious for front fork dive, hit the back just before the front, and it will settle the bike down some, lower the center of gravity, and they usually won't dive so much.

Now, where I get some back talk is on using the rear brake to tighten up a corner. Yes, anytime you use brakes in a corner, the bike wants to stand up, but that also goes with just riding through a corner. If you quit leaning and counter steering, the bike will want to stand up. BUT, if you use the rear brake in a corner you're hot in, while pushing on the bars counter steering, the bike will slow down, and you can tighten up the corner. I do this sometimes when I'm trying to lay down some fast laps, and get in a little hot. I also bleed air into my rear brakes. If you go straight on my track bike, and stand on the rear brake, most of the time it will not lock up the tire unless you're braking with the front at the same time. It's just a little insurance to not lock up the rear tire while bent over in a corner. On the street, trail braking is/can be very beneficial. It's one of those things that you just have to get past the "built in" limitations in your brain of what you and the bike can do.

A couple things that I always remembered from my road race school was:
1--If you're not dragging hard parts or sliding the tires, you can go faster.
2--When you get to the turn-----turn. Don't stand the bike up and ride off the road/track.
We all have built in limitations on how fast we "think" we can go through a corner. Well, if you haven't crashed in that turn/corner at your current speed, how in the hell do you know you won't make it. It's just that you "think" you won't make it.

Some of you have watched some of my videos from track days, but on these, you can see a little of my right hand, and can see some of the front trail braking. It obviously varies on how far in the corner I trail brake, but I like to be accelerating as fast as possible.



In this one, after the close moment, you can see on some of the corners, especially turn 4 and 11, left hander's, where I'll trail in a little deeper.

 
@Red Marley, man, anytime you want to roll some laps at CMP or VIR, you're more than welcome to ride the CBR. Shake off the rust and have some fun. That bike is so stable and easy to ride at a good pace. Hell, come down to the kart track, and you're welcome to ride my Grom.
 
Stick Man said:
@Red Marley, man, anytime you want to roll some laps at CMP or VIR, you're more than welcome to ride the CBR. Shake off the rust and have some fun. That bike is so stable and easy to ride at a good pace. Hell, come down to the kart track, and you're welcome to ride my Grom.
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That’s a very kind and tempting offer, but I rode cantankerous low tech old bikes for so long I’m quite sure I wouldn’t know how to act on one that’s easy to ride. I sure wish I’d done it before I found out I was old. But I think discretion is the better part of valor 😉
 
Red Marley said:
That’s a very kind and tempting offer, but I rode cantankerous low tech old bikes for so long I’m quite sure I wouldn’t know how to act on one that’s easy to ride. I sure wish I’d done it before I found out I was old. But I think discretion is the better part of valor 😉
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I don't know how old you are, but I have two buddies who just wiped the floor at a AHRMA race at CMP and Roebling. One is 56, the other 64. The 56 yo just turned a 1.40.2 at CMP two weeks ago on a 92 GSXR 750, dragging both sides of the bodywork, lol.
 
Stick Man said:
I don't know how old you are, but I have two buddies who just wiped the floor at a AHRMA race at CMP and Roebling. One is 56, the other 64. The 56 yo just turned a 1.40.2 at CMP two weeks ago on a 92 GSXR 750, dragging both sides of the bodywork, lol.
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We won’t reveal Red’s age but I expect he refers to me as a whippersnapper when I’m not around.

:p
 
Stick Man said:
I don't know how old you are, but I have two buddies who just wiped the floor at a AHRMA race at CMP and Roebling. One is 56, the other 64. The 56 yo just turned a 1.40.2 at CMP two weeks ago on a 92 GSXR 750, dragging both sides of the bodywork, lol.
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I’ll be 75 this year, I hung up my leathers about 20 years ago; I would have to improve considerably to be considered rusty. I’ve spent enough time healing up from misadventures, and I’m happy now to just take my dogs in the woods. Gordon Jennings said he knew it was time to quit when, lying in the back of an ambulance he thought, “you know, these things all use the same headliner”.
 
Sp00ks said:
I suspect he can hang. Not sure why I think that but I suspect it's true.
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He piloted that sidecar rig in and out of my neighborhood with gusto. Having ridden it, I became aware that his riding is very likely pretty impressive.
 
I totally understand that my man. If you ever get that wild hair and change your mind, the offer is always open.
That offer also goes to anyone else here with some good riding experience. I'm trying to see if Kcult wants to buy the CBR and come back to the track.
 
I trail brake to settle the suspension down. I don't want the bike nose or tail heavy. It's all about linear.

Even if you don't brake at all in the turn, the front is still loaded more than the rear. Trail braking the rear takes that weight off the front, leveling the bike out and allowing easier and more effective steering.
And I mean just a touch on the pedal. If you can feel any 'braking' at all it's too much. A baby's breath touch on the rear actually allows the front to react more positively since the back isn't trying to push the front anymore. I do use the back to assist in braking, but the back brake is mostly a control mechanism for me. I'm not really depending on a whole lotta stopping power from the back brake, but I'm using it to settle the bike down and keep the nose from diving.

These big heavy bikes really really like to have their weight distribution 50% front 50% rear. They like to be level through the corners. Racing bikes are different. Trail braking the rear is my preferred method with these buffalo's, I don't trail brake the front. These bikes require a considerable amount of effort to 'steer' anyway and loading up the front doesn't really help with that.

My supermoto bikes were far more forgiving and you could throw them around like a bicycle.

@Stick Man is absolutely correct. Trail braking will also aid in being able to tighten up your turn and give you a better sense of control. Here I am trail braking the rear in the living room setting up the left-handed decreasing radius/off camber turn 4 and keep me from running into the fireplace.
77009286_112348923585978_3983802228279345152_n.jpg
 
Friday said:
I trail brake to settle the suspension down. I don't want the bike nose or tail heavy. It's all about linear.

Even if you don't brake at all in the turn, the front is still loaded more than the rear. Trail braking the rear takes that weight off the front, leveling the bike out and allowing easier and more effective steering.
And I mean just a touch on the pedal. If you can feel any 'braking' at all it's too much. A baby's breath touch on the rear actually allows the front to react more positively since the back isn't trying to push the front anymore. I do use the back to assist in braking, but the back brake is mostly a control mechanism for me. I'm not really depending on a whole lotta stopping power from the back brake, but I'm using it to settle the bike down and keep the nose from diving.

These big heavy bikes really really like to have their weight distribution 50% front 50% rear. They like to be level through the corners. Racing bikes are different. Trail braking the rear is my preferred method with these buffalo's, I don't trail brake the front. These bikes require a considerable amount of effort to 'steer' anyway and loading up the front doesn't really help with that.

My supermoto bikes were far more forgiving and you could throw them around like a bicycle.
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[/QUOTE]
THAT is what I recall you instructing me. So I am not remembering it wrong. Thank you.


But we didn’t get to this advanced segment of the lesson.
Friday said:
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Stick Man said:
I'm trying to see if Kcult wants to buy the CBR and come back to the track.
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I still have all my gear, but between Obamacare, no income, and a new grandbaby, I'm hesitant as hell.
 
kcult said:
I still have all my gear, but between Obamacare, no income, and a new grandbaby, I'm hesitant as hell.
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You didn’t ask, but I’m here to tell you that two of the greatest things in life are grand babies, and motorcycles. You’ve got one. Here’s how to get the other.

Pester the snot out of your wife. About anything and everything. She’ll beg you to leave her alone and will see a motorcycle as a welcome reprieve.
 
fieldgrade said:
You didn’t ask, but I’m here to tell you that two of the greatest things in life are grand babies, and motorcycles. You’ve got one. Here’s how to get the other.

Pester the snot out of your wife. About anything and everything. She’ll beg you to leave her alone and will see a motorcycle as a welcome reprieve.
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Do I hear the voice of experience here 😄
 
Stick Man said:
What in the hell does a grandbaby got to do with it?
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Kcult is still of the possibly misinformed impression that our wives actually want us to come home alive at the end of the day.

I know better.
 
Diablos said:
Take it from a pro, just buy it. She'll only be pissed for a little while 🤣
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Some old guy (my age) at the liquor store was extolling the beauty of my last bike sitting there, right in front of the front door.

Him: “I’ve always wanted a bike like that.
Him: “But the wife…”
Me: “Let me ask you a question. Does your wife ever get mad at you?”
Him: ”Are you kidding?? All the time!”
Me: “So, she sorta stays mad?”
Him: “Pretty much.”

Me: “Well, might as well get some mileage out of it.”
 
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Stick Man said:
Now, where I get some back talk is on using the rear brake to tighten up a corner. Yes, anytime you use brakes in a corner, the bike wants to stand up, but that also goes with just riding through a corner. If you quit leaning and counter steering, the bike will want to stand up. BUT, if you use the rear brake in a corner you're hot in, while pushing on the bars counter steering, the bike will slow down, and you can tighten up the corner. I do this sometimes when I'm trying to lay down some fast laps, and get in a little hot.
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You won't get back talk from me.

This is an valuable skill to have if you ride a brisk pace on a twisty road on a shaft-driven bike. The rear end of a shaftie tends to squat when you reduce throttle, and that's the last thing you want when you're already leaned over. Dragging a little rear brake while keeping the throttle steady will tighten your line without upsetting the bike at all. The modern torque-canceling rear drives on some bikes (BMW's Paralever, Guzzi's CARC) really help with the jacking/squatting thing, but the above technique is still the way to go.

I found that it translated just fine to chain-driven bikes, too; especially those with a lot of suspension travel. Getting back into the throttle before getting off the brakes, as you mentioned earlier in you post, is also really useful on a softly-suspended, long-travel setup like my former KTM 990 Adventure.
 
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