Trusts, are they still worth using?

Exile_D

Exile_D

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I had a trust put together quite a while ago and was going to use it for NFA items (SBR and supressors) but never got around to it. However, I really want to get a few supressors and possibly SBR a rifle or two.

Are they still the better way to go? I thought the new rules that went into effect last summer made trusts more of a PITA, but I honestly haven't kept up with the whole situation.
 
In addition to being more of a pain, it seems that individual applications are processing a LOT faster than Trusts.
 
If you are going to be the single owner and don't plan on passing it down to anyone then, individual is fine. Yes individuals are being processed faster than trusts right now.

If you have family members or friends that want to posses the can when you are not around, or go in as a group to buy several to share, or the ability to pass it down upon your passing, then the trust is the better way.

I believe both have the same requirements now. Picture and fingerprints, but that said if you have additional people on your trust (as you submit it), you will have to submit their picture and fingerprints as well. Or just submit the trust with just you and amend the trust to include these individuals once your paperwork has been approved.

@BigWaylon should chime in shortly.
 
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tod0987 said:
If you are going to be the single owner and don't plan on passing it down to anyone then, individual is fine.

If you have family members or friends that want to posses the can when you are not around, or go in as a group to buy several to share, or the ability to pass it down upon your passing, then the trust is the better way.
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Two mentions of "pass it down"...

What a lot of people don't realize is you can "pass it down" for no cost even if registered to an individual. It's done via a Form 5 and either goes to the lawful heir (spouse, child, etc depending on the circumstances) or to whoever is named in the Will for the particular item(s).

So, don't use that as a decision point either way. It's pure internet rumor to think the ATF will collect your NFA items and destroy them when you die unless they're registered to a trust.

The NFA game is not for the impatient. I wouldn't let the approval duration really sway your opinion. For the most part, these are lifetime investments, so several months shouldn't matter...if those timelines even stay consistent. The potential return of EForms is always out there, and the ATF has said they're working on it.

The main advantage of applying as an entity is the ability for multiple people to possess the items. That alone is reason enough for me.

The paperwork involved for an individual vs a trust with a single RP is basically the same. As a trust, you simply split the answers between two forms instead of putting in on one. (You skip part of the F1/F4 and answer the same questions on a 5320.23 RPQ form instead).

If you went with a single RP trust, you'd have the ability to add additional RPs after the fact without any notification to the ATF. You could repeat that practice, and never have anybody else provide photos or FPs. Just food for thought.... ;)
 
Nice feature of the trust is the items stay out of probate.
Photos taken at Walmart $8, only need one, and prints at the
Raleigh CCBI office $20.
 
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BigWaylon said:
Two mentions of "pass it down"...

What a lot of people don't realize is you can "pass it down" for no cost even if registered to an individual. It's done via a Form 5 and either goes to the lawful heir (spouse, child, etc depending on the circumstances) or to whoever is named in the Will for the particular item(s).

So, don't use that as a decision point either way. It's pure internet rumor to think the ATF will collect your NFA items and destroy them when you die unless they're registered to a trust.

The NFA game is not for the impatient. I wouldn't let the approval duration really sway your opinion. For the most part, these are lifetime investments, so several months shouldn't matter...if those timelines even stay consistent. The potential return of EForms is always out there, and the ATF has said they're working on it.

The main advantage of applying as an entity is the ability for multiple people to possess the items. That alone is reason enough for me.

The paperwork involved for an individual vs a trust with a single RP is basically the same. As a trust, you simply split the answers between two forms instead of putting in on one. (You skip part of the F1/F4 and answer the same questions on a 5320.23 RPQ form instead).

If you went with a single RP trust, you'd have the ability to add additional RPs after the fact without any notification to the ATF. You could repeat that practice, and never have anybody else provide photos or FPs. Just food for thought.... ;)
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Does my trust have to be altered/amended by the attorney that wrote it? Can I do it myself?
Right now the trust has myself, the wife and two kids (second kid was added via amendment) all done by the attorney. He is a nice enough guy and a shooter, but getting anything done in a timely manner took a lot of poking and prodding on my part.
 
And rememeber, the "extra work" can be minimized pretty easily. People are usually referring to having to get prints and photos for each person.

You can do your own photos for <$.50 with a smart phone assuming you live near a drug store or any other store that prints photos...or for "free" if you print at home. (They don't even need to be on photo paper).

For prints, there are digital scan options where you'd only have to have each person there once. Or you can do them yourself for the cost of an ink pad (since the ATF will send you the blank cards for free). Or pay to have them done once, digitize that card with a scanner, and print your own whenever you feel like it.

I'm not saying a trust is absolutely the way to go for everybody...just that it's not the "sky is falling" experience some will lead you to believe it is.
 
Exile_D said:
Does my trust have to be altered/amended by the attorney that wrote it? Can I do it myself?
Right now the trust has myself, the wife and two kids (second kid was added via amendment) all done by the attorney. He is a nice enough guy and a shooter, but getting anything done in a timely manner took a lot of poking and prodding on my part.
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Yes and no. IANAL, but I don't believe there's a legal requirement for that same attorney to do it. However, you'd need to know exactly what was in it in order to amend it. And if you wanted to use a different lawyer, you're probably paying him to review it first before making amendments. Maybe you could have him write up an amendment (not exactly sure what you're wanting changed) and then alter is as needed.

For example, he could write an amendment to remove all other trustees, and another to add one/all back. You could duplicate those as many times as you'd need to and skip the photo/print process for everybody else.
 
BigWaylon said:
Yes and no. IANAL, but I don't believe there's a legal requirement for that same attorney to do it. However, you'd need to know exactly what was in it in order to amend it. And if you wanted to use a different lawyer, you're probably paying him to review it first before making amendments. Maybe you could have him write up an amendment (not exactly sure what you're wanting changed) and then alter is as needed.

For example, he could write an amendment to remove all other trustees, and another to add one/all back. You could duplicate those as many times as you'd need to and skip the photo/print process for everybody else.
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I was thinking of just rewriting it (the relevant parts anyway) with myself listed only for now. If the wife shows interest or when the kids are old enough, I'll add them back in.
 
The probate advantage was definitely worth mentioning, at least for some people.

Button Pusher said:
Photos taken at Walmart $8, only need one,
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You can get six for the cost of a single 4x6 print ($.15 when I just checked) at that same Walmart, so please don't spend $8 having it done. ;)

Button Pusher said:
You can download the print cards from FBI no cost.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/standard-fingerprint-form-fd-258-1.pdf/view
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But you'd still have to buy card stock. They'll send you blank cards with the correct ORI already on them for free, and usually within a week or two. That's the way to go!
 
To order the FP cards:

1. Click here: https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form
2. Fill out your info
3. Put a checkmark in the Fingerprint Cards box
4. Enter quantity
5. Choose FBI FD-258LE from the dropdown (for NFA submissions)
6. Click Preview (clicking Add Item creates another line)
7. Complete order (I didn't step through any further than that to tell you exactly what to do, but I have a dozen blank cards here already from the last time I did it)
 
So....I have 3 cans and 3 SBR on my Trust today, all processed before the rule changes.

I have another can in process now as an individual. Setting aside the fact that I'd be paying for the stamp again, is there any reason my Trust can't buy/acquire that can from me directly? Or does the deal need to be brokered by an NFA blessed dealer?

If/when it becomes desirable to have that can available for kids, wife, etc you've - @BigWaylon - have convinced me that a Trust the way to go.
 
Tim said:
I have another can in process now as an individual. Setting aside the fact that I'd be paying for the stamp again, is there any reason my Trust can't buy/acquire that can from me directly? Or does the deal need to be brokered by an NFA blessed dealer?
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You can transfer it from you to your trust. It will cost you the $200 for the F4. But, since you're the transferor and transferee, you'll be able to maintain possession during the wait.

You and I could sell each other NFA items without a dealer involved. In-state transfers are simply a Form 4 and $200. Buying from someone out of state, when they're not a SOT, requires two F4s and $400.

And this is not your question, but I figured I'd throw it out there. There's also no limit to the number of trusts you have. Silencer Shop actually has a deal set up for unlimited trusts. They name each one using the serial number. You can set it up so you're the only RP, and after it's approved you add all your other trustees (with no notification to the ATF and no FPs/photos required). You could do the same thing by duplicating a trust you already had and modifying the name.
 
Anyone know if I am able to rewrite my current trust with me as the sole member person without having to notify or file it somewhere?
I believe the attorney told me it had to have a beneficiary or something like that though and that person would still have to be photographed and fingerprinted. Does that sound right?

We need a resident attorney/NFA/trust expert on the forum, lol!
 
Exile_D said:
We need a resident attorney/NFA/trust expert on the forum, lol!
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We have them...but if I were one of them there's no way I'd dole out specific advice for a specific person on the forum. 1) That's their livelihood. Go make an appointment! and 2) Some idiot will come along, read the post out of context and go off half-cocked thinking he's got genuine lawyering on his side.
 
Tim said:
We have them...but if I were one of them there's no way I'd dole out specific advice for a specific person on the forum. 1) That's their livelihood. Go make an appointment! and 2) Some idiot will come along, read the post out of context and go off half-cocked thinking he's got genuine lawyering on his side.
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uh ok :rolleyes: I'm not asking them to rewrite it or make changes for free. I'm simply asking IF a trust is something I can edit personally or is it required by law to have an attorney make any and all changes. If an attorney is required, all other points/questions are moot. But, I gave an example of what I would edit for clarification so no one would think I'm rewriting this entire 25-page document. If these things are kept on file with the gov somewhere, then I would assume there would be fee involved in that and possibly not able to be done by a non-attorney (i.e. me).

I already paid an attorney to write this thing once and then add an amendment. Like I said, he is a nice enough guy, but just about impossible to get anything from him in a timely manner or even a call/email return.
If it is illegal for me to make changes, then so be it. Or if there are other barriers to a non-attorney to file or somehow make it official, then fine. I just don't know how these things work in the eyes of the gov/ATF/etc.

As far as beneficiaries or trustees go, that is a general question about trusts. I was told you have to have someone on them besides you, but it sounds like, from posts here, that a trust can be just one person so I am asking for clarification on that point.

Edit: As far as the actual resident attorney statement, that doesn't mean someone to dole out free advice on the forum. However if we had a forum member or members that are attorneys and have a good reputation for helping out other forum members, specifically with NFA trusts, it would be nice to know and use them. Especially if they actually respond to emails/phone calls inside a month, lol! Neither does it mean not compensating them for their help/work/expertise.
 
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The purpose of a trust is to hold property. So, you'd need to have a beneficiary.

However, unless your trust is really worded strangely, a beneficiary wouldn't be considered a Reaponsible Person...so no photos/prints required. The beneficiary(ies) usually cannot be in possession of the items.
 
BigWaylon said:
You can set it up so you're the only RP, and after it's approved you add all your other trustees (with no notification to the ATF and no FPs/photos required).
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I have been wondering about this exact thing.

So I can add RPs to an existing trust without ATF involvement at all? That is excellent. Would like to add kids as they turn 21.
 
JimP42 said:
I have been wondering about this exact thing.

So I can add RPs to an existing trust without ATF involvement at all? That is excellent. Would like to add kids as they turn 21.
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Yep. All that matters is who is an RP at the time of submission. There was a proposal in 41P to require notification within 30 days if any changes to the RPs, but that's didn't make it to 41F. The ATF spelled that out in their Q&A when the changes were made.
 
BigWaylon said:
Yep. All that matters is who is an RP at the time of submission. There was a proposal in 41P to require notification within 30 days if any changes to the RPs, but that's didn't make it to 41F. The ATF spelled that out in their Q&A when the changes were made.
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Excellent!
 
JimP42 said:
Excellent!
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And just because I try to have supporting documentation when possible...here you go:

Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?

A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.

Source: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/general41fquestionsandanswersupdated-6-28-16pdf/download

(That link is also in the Guide to NFA forms sticky)
 
Just to chime in. I used Nolo to generate my trust. I am the grantor and only Trustee. I plan on filing a few Form 1s soon with me rolling my own prints and such. I'll be sure to update how it goes.
 
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