USMC mucking around with Scout/Sniper, maybe new MOS

Well think about it, what are they failing? They are failing things that require patience and practical figuring in your head. These are things that are becoming lost on the new internet generation. They didn't grow up having to wait on anything. They have had GPS their whole lives at this point.

Oh and they just suck at shoot'n
 
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Is there a pre-sniper course that eligible marines can attend? Prior to Ranger school, some installations have Pre Ranger courses that soldiers can attend which greatly improve their chances of Success at the school of all schools :p
 
11B CIB said:
Is there a pre-sniper course that eligible marines can attend? Prior to Ranger school, some installations have Pre Ranger courses that soldiers can attend which greatly improve their chances of Success at the school of all schools :p
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Pre scuba as well
 
SDIVER2006 said:
Pre scuba as well
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There IS pre-dive...

@Goofyfoot2001 , they have played around with the course where they stop it between the stalking and shooting phases, sending Marines to a PIG unit to get addition OJT before they went to part 2. Historically that helped. Also, identifying Marines early and sending them to S/S units to do OJT and work as apprentices prior to going to the course. I would be curious to see the breakdown of course fails, historically it's been mostly the stalking phase that fails the most. They shoot expert to get into the course, so they are already good trigger men.

There has been debate for years on whether to make S/S a MOS producing course. Logistically it would be very difficult, and I can see both sides of the argument.
 
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The drastic drop in attendance and increase in washout rate ... shows what the next generation is The Worst Generation Yet. In the not to distant future the men and women of The Greatest Generation Ever will be gone ... the Baby Boomers are now reach senior citizen and Gen X is right behind them ... that leaves the snowflake Millennials which I have little faith in outside of the few who have been raised right and not allowed to be assimilated by today’s schools and society into the PC bovine caca that makes soy boys and such who couldn’t even hold a scout sniper’s ghillie suit. Heaven help the Corps and other military branches with the lower quality pool of candidates.
 
Its not a worst generation issue. If it was then we are the worst parents right?

The issue i see is culture, true nco development, and 18 year war service.

Culture.

A selection course selects students. A school should be designed to teach a subject, not destroy students.

True NCO Development
If a NCO wants to focus as a SME and not do a staff tour, let them stay in a role, if they pass all standards. If a staff person wants to be staff, let them be staff.

18 years of war.
How much burden does the military have to carry as our policies keep kicking up dust? We are at burn out rate with our service people.
 
They’re not developing them in the platoon long enough before sending them to the school; that’s what the problem is, that’s where the problem has always been. It takes time to make a pig, and sometimes they’re never ready for school. The point of giving them observer and team time is to develop them for school and their own team or run them off.
 
From an officer I know who is "in the know":

I’m not up to date but I did participate in some of the working groups leading up to this back in 2017. I believe they are sending Marines from boot camp to SOI to become 0315 basic snipers before they hit their STA platoons. This should be a scout or “PIG” mos and provides a baseline of training to build from through OJT. The 0315 returns to SOI at some point to attend the advanced sniper course to complete the sniper pipeline and receive the 0317 MOS.

Creating an MOS generates TECOM funding and enables M&RA to track/assign Marines with those skill sets.

It’s cool to have massively high attrition and all but the S/S courses only produced a fraction of our sniper requirement. A lot of that attrition was in the stalking lanes that none of the Division commanders really cared about. They asked the instructors to find a solution.... they didn’t do now the commanders are fixing it for them.
 
@NCFubar , this is not a generational thing. The S/S washout has been high for 40 years. The Corps has never had enough S/S.

@xtp308 , that's what they are doing now to develop essential skills before sending them to "part 2" of the school. The shooting lanes have been easy (for the students); it's the stalking and recon that has been the biggest ball-buster.

@JBoyette is right, they need to decide is it a school or is it a selection? They are trying to ride the fence like they do with ARS (now BRC). They need to decide, and it looks like they are making progress in this area.
 
By sending them straight from Parris Island or SOI, they miss the whole point. You can't hunt infantry unless/until you are infantry. They're sending a bunch of boots to the toughest course in the USMC, and one of the toughest for the whole DOD; and acting surprised when everybody fails. The course is not a "washout " course, like ARS or SFAS. But, either you master the skills or you have to go. Not only that, if you can't do the basics, your partner fails too.

We will never have enough in the FMF, but it's not a numbers game. It truly is a case of the "job chooses the man". You either have the background and the aptitude or you don't; they can't teach that. That is taught by growing up with a .22 in your hands and roaming the woods and fields as a kid.

That's why you go to the FMF in a line company and serve your time there, then you take the STA indoc. If you pass the physical part, then they interview you on the mental part. You do your pig time there and get prepped for the school house, or you stay an observer and never attend school. No shame, just how it is.
 
xtp308 said:
By sending them straight from Parris Island or SOI, they miss the whole point. You can't hunt infantry unless/until you are infantry. They're sending a bunch of boots to the toughest course in the USMC, and one of the toughest for the whole DOD; and acting surprised when everybody fails. The course is not a "washout " course, like ARS or SFAS. But, either you master the skills or you have to go. Not only that, if you can't do the basics, your partner fails too.

We will never have enough in the FMF, but it's not a numbers game. It truly is a case of the "job chooses the man". You either have the background and the aptitude or you don't; they can't teach that. That is taught by growing up with a .22 in your hands and roaming the woods and fields as a kid.

That's why you go to the FMF in a line company and serve your time there, then you take the STA indoc. If you pass the physical part, then they interview you on the mental part. You do your pig time there and get prepped for the school house, or you stay an observer and never attend school. No shame, just how it is.
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What would you suggest to maintain or increase numbers and maintain standards?
 
You'll never increase the numbers, you just have to be smarter with deployment of assets. Drop the "high school to flight school" approach and go back to the old way. Boot, SOI, FMF time, indoc, pig time, maybe school maybe ETS. Having the 0317 "career field" is a great step forward, where you never have to leave the community to earn rank. That means qualified guys to help select the next generation, not some kid who has been in the Corps for a year and never served time in a line company. How can you be a scout ( which is the vast majority of your time) and locate enemy infantry if you don't understand how they think and move ? How can you interact with tactical MI who gives you the missions anyway, if you don't understand what MI is looking for ?
how can you be a boot with only school time and operate supporting fires ( tac air, arty, NGF) if you don't really understand it, because you've never done it before ? We're sending kids with pampers on to do the toughest job and acting surprised when they can't even make it through the schoolhouse ?

It's a lot like the Army 18X program, QA issues everywhere. Old school SF wouldn't even talk to you until you were a SGT from combat arms at the end of your first enlistment. I don't see MARSOC taking "boots" yet (I could be wrong, but I hope not ) !!!
 
A little off thread but curious to know it there is a similar problem in Recon.
 
Dale Flinchum said:
A little off thread but curious to know it there is a similar problem in Recon.
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I have not been around that community since the early to mid-2000s. They always have trouble filling their slots, and BRC/ARC, whatever they want to call it, has a high attrition rate. And they also at right with the follow-up schools like dive and jump and SERE. But they also recruit straight out of boot camp with contracts, that is more akin to going into ranger regiment where MARSOC is more like going into Special Forces.
 
I watched some sniper training specials on the history channel (I think it was for the Marines because it was in southern California) while back. Most failed the stalking/concealment phase. The trainer would watch with a spotting scope/binoculars.....if he found you, failure. Sometimes promising candidates would get a second chance at the exercise. I have to admit........the teacher was good at finding them......of course he had many years of experience.
 
Chuckman said:
What would you suggest to maintain or increase numbers and maintain standards?
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There is only one option.

Have a open selection to the whole USMC twice a year, everyone is a rifleman right? The selection should be done by each post and qualifications should be posted black and white.

Next the USMC needs to stop talking and produce The best damn Sniper instructors, not the best damn PT smokers, but NCO's who can teach well.

Thats the only way.

Or, send all USMC Snipers to the US Army Sniper school as a train up. Seems to develop a better quality Sniper.

https://taskandpurpose.com/soldiers-marine-scout-sniper-course

Just saying.

All jokes aside, it might be a best idea to have a DOD basic Sniper school that all branches attend, Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force, and Coastguard to set a base line.,
 
JBoyette said:
There is only one option.

Have a open selection to the whole USMC twice a year, everyone is a rifleman right? The selection should be done by each post and qualifications should be posted black and white.

Next the USMC needs to stop talking and produce The best damn Sniper instructors, not the best damn PT smokers, but NCO's who can teach well.

Thats the only way.

Or, send all USMC Snipers to the US Army Sniper school as a train up. Seems to develop a better quality Sniper.

https://taskandpurpose.com/soldiers-marine-scout-sniper-course

Just saying.

All jokes aside, it might be a best idea to have a DOD basic Sniper school that all branches attend, Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force, and Coastguard to set a base line.,
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As usual, those soldiers gamed the system and were already sniper qualified when they attended the Marine school, so.... Kind of like, do you know how many recon Marines have failed Ranger school? Zero.

Joking aside....

Although I could see the benefit of having a single unified school because every branch sends students through other branch's school, I think you could only work if it was a basic skill school because each branch employs their snipers and totally different capacities and their TTP's are totally different.
 
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