USPSA - Presidential Election

Discussion in 'Competitions' started by Wolffy, Jul 1, 2019.

  1. Wolffy

    Wolffy Make ready. Charter Member Supporting Member

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    If you are a current USPSA member you should have received the email with instructions to cast your vote. You have until 8/1 to vote.
     
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  2. Mike Overlay

    Mike Overlay Lacks seriousness Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I am NOT a current memeber. Fixing to be over a year expired very very soon. I still got all the goodies to vote. Should I?
     
  3. Millie

    Millie Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Didn't get anything from them. Maybe I'll send an email voting for you!
     
  4. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    Life Member since 1994 here.

    #1 - I don't vote for any of them. Haven't in over 20 years. Voting only encourages the board and officers (particularly the officers) to do more stupid crap, thinking they have been given a mandate from the members to make things more gooder.

    #2 - I didn't get an email. I don't get emails from them even though they have it on record. Maybe I have been booted out and they forgot to email me to tell me.

    I didn't get a paper ballot in the regular mail either. That's a thing of the past like an actual rule book to carry in your range bag. I do have a plastic Life Member card. Hope I never lose it, I'd need a 3D printer to download a replacement.

    Someone (Phil, let's blame Phil, he's a good scapegoat) at HQ boogered my password so I can't get into the site. I would believe they think I already died except I do still get Front Sight. I could call and get the password and email straightened out, I suppose, but then that might lead them to believe I actually give a crap about what they do. It's beyond redemption so I don't.

    #3 - No, my membership did not expire. It will never expire. Eventually I will expire. And they will probably still send the magazine after I do. Sponsors need eyeballs on their stuff, ya know, even dead eyeballs. Because sponsorship is and always has been the driving force behind USPSA.

    People think that "inclusiveness" is a fairly recent phenomenon foisted on us by the liberals. It is not. USPSA started being "inclusive" way back in the early '90's before it became fashionable. Maybe it was because HQ was in liberal Washington.

    First, Practical Carry (aka Production) Division for the Glock shooters who were so sad because they couldn't compete in Limited against the major power factor Paras. Then, Single Stack Division for the .45 ACP 1911 purist whiners (who promptly left to create IDPA anyhow - LOL).

    You have to remember......... Para was an existential threat to anyone shooting Limited without a major PF wide body. So the members <wink, wink> petitioned for more divisions. Or so we were told.

    Limited 10 eventually came along for those in the leftist states. Followed later by Carry Optics (aka Budget Open or Production for Failing Eyesight, depending on your age, I guess).

    And the all time winner ---- Pistol Caliber Carbine for I have absolutely no freaking idea why. It's a RIFLE!!!!! Go play on the rifle playground.

    But Revolver Division is still hanging in there for the few, the proud. Of course, if anyone thinks they can bring out the old six shooter........ um, no, that ain't gonna fly in today's 8 here, 8 there, 8 everywhere game.

    And then we have the special award categories. Lady category and Junior category and Senior category and Super Senior category. What's next, Life Support category? Drag the old oxygen tank around and shoot strong hand only?

    Military, Law Enforcement, Foreign. Is there anyone one who is not special in some way? An old female Canadian military police officer could really clean up on the awards.

    A good friend of mine is hoping for the Fifty Five Year Old Italian Fat Guy category. And when a mid fifties Italian fat guy gets elected President it will happen. Watch and see. Past is prologue.

    Member ID numbers are way beyond #100,000 and only 30,000 are active members (allegedly). What's that tell ya? Do you think those other 70,000 shooters all died or retired and moved to Costa Rica? Ha.

    When the number of former participants more than doubles the current participants -- there's a reason for it and it's not just attrition. What once was a simple "shoot as fast and accurately as you can" fun day at the range has been turned into a participation trophy event where no one has to have any bad feelz, governed by a (online) rule book filled with bullshit to accommodate the unwritten mission statement of USPSA ----- Let No Sponsor Be Left Behind.

    Resurrect Jeff Cooper and I'll vote for him.

    ETA -- for all the sanctimonious blathering from the IDPA founders about IPSC having strayed and become an equipment race, it is interesting to see that IDPA now has 10 equipment divisions. But you still can't use moon clips. Oh noooooooooo, that would be gamer like. LOL
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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  5. SC380

    SC380 Active Member

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    Anybody know how they narrow it down to just 2 people? Were they the only two guys interested?
     
  6. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    Who is running?
     
  7. SC380

    SC380 Active Member

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    Mike Foley and Mike Valentine
     
  8. Mike Overlay

    Mike Overlay Lacks seriousness Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Is Valentine running on the PCC repeal platform?
     
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  9. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    Thanks. The reason I asked was only Mike Foley shown in Front Sight. Didn't know there were 2 until you mentioned it.
     
  10. SC380

    SC380 Active Member

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    I haven't found their actual platforms listed anywhere. The side discussion I have seen says the decision is between the "douchebag" that tried to ban some high profile guys over a joke and the other guy who has never RO'd.
     
  11. Beef15

    Beef15 B or somesuch

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    Only the two are running.

    And Valentine was allegedly too late to declare to get a mention in the magazine. Funny that the "evergreen" online all the things org couldn't manage an email or anything with his interview, and went ahead and printed Foley's knowing his opp would not get the opportunity.

    I enjoy the game, but there's definitely some happenings that take away from it.
     
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  12. Beef15

    Beef15 B or somesuch

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    Valentine did pretty good on the Practical Shooting After Dark podcast. But he is a mostly unknown, and seems that like any outsider would doesn't know what he'll actually be able to do.

    I think Foley thinks everything is roses how it is.
     
  13. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    I had an area director tell me one time that it was not his job to stick his finger in the air and see what the members of his area wanted - his job was to vote for what was good for the organization and the Board would decide that.
     
  14. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Amazing rant!
    I'm considering framing this for my wall.
     
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  15. SC380

    SC380 Active Member

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    I have had no interactions with Valentine. Foley has always been cordial the few times I have communicated with him but his public stuff is what it is.
     
  16. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    Thank you.

    The incestuous relationship between USPSA leadership and industry sponsors has always been a thorn for me. I understand how sponsors underwrite the majors and, therefore, must be catered to somewhat.

    But there was a time when there were equipment rules changes on a seemingly monthly basis which benefited those with stuff to sell to the members more so than the members themselves. And all the while we were told all this was being done for the betterment of the sport and for the good of the members. "Look at how the membership numbers are climbing", was the battle cry.

    It's funny how the "entry level" division created as a result of the 1994 AWB and the relatively inexpensive Glock coming into prominence ended up taking up more space in the rule book than any other division. How could that have happened to "box stock" guns, I wonder?

    Single Stack was the one that really frosted my cupcakes. That was nothing more than a good-old-boy gift to some sponsors. And, like I said above, they promptly bailed out anyhow. I'm sure there was a fair amount of "principle" involved in that move to create a new (fundamental) game but I am just as sure there was a fair amount of "principal" involved in the creation of the Single Stack division, too.

    99% of us just want to bust some caps, bust some balls, have a burger & a couple beers on the way home but there are a lot of levels to the game.

    ETA - "Don't piss down my back, Senator, and tell me it's raining."
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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  17. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Honestly, as a simpleton and a guy who doesn't shoot all that great:
    I appreciate being able to sneer down my nose at the poor paupers with their Grockz and kydex.

    And, sure PCC is lame, but once I saw Jessica Hook shoot it, I was quickly assembling mine and trying to lose weight.
     
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  18. Mike Overlay

    Mike Overlay Lacks seriousness Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    No matter how hard you try, you will never be a gun bunny
     
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  19. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Dream killer.
     
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  20. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying all the divisions that came into being after the olden days of Open, Limited, & Revolver should not exist. There certainly is a following for each. Nor am I totally down on the practical shooting sport. I don't fail to realize how much of a factor this sport has been in the area of shooting innovation in general. A lot of techniques seen on the streets and fields today were spawned by gamers. Thank Jerry Barnhart for dots on guns --- all kinds of guns.

    It can be said that the more doors we open for people, the more people can join us and enjoy what we do and I find it hard to argue against that. But those changes come at a cost as, for every door that opens, there are scores of vendors lining up to make money off the people walking through those doors. And, to support the majors, USPSA is complicit in that. To the point where I question the reasoning behind some of the changes.

    I just think the reasons for the existence of some divisions or rule changes are not always fully what folks believe them to be. I think the old Paul Harvey "The rest of the story" sometimes applies. But that's just me questioning authority.

    I also think the 99% don't (or shouldn't) give a rats ass about the equipment "edge" that can be purchased from the sponsors in the industry. The equipment race did, and does still, exist. I saw a lot of guys get very frustrated over the years seeing an equipment rule change that benefited the sponsors and their team shooters --- right after spending money on what was the hot stuff just a couple of months before. And I think that contributed to decreased participation over the years. Eventually people simply run out of discretionary spending money for the newest hotness.

    I started out shooting a Gen 1 G17 in Limited. Yeah, minor but it had the capacity. I shot it cuz that's what I had. And, looking back, I had no less fun with that gun than I did with the Para .40 that replaced it. (I "bought" A class.) Or the $3,000 STI Super Comp that a small inheritance allowed me to buy. And none of them won me the national championship, damn it. I'm just a burger & beer shooter but I have been around long enough and have seen enough to know that the party line out of Sedro Wolley or wherever sometimes bears scrutiny.

    And when someone says the organization is bigger and better than ever............. I've heard that before.

    For my money, keep it simple. Otherwise............. who really benefits?
     
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  21. 9Baller

    9Baller Member

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    It’s kind of weird that you’re griping about all these guns/arms race and then talking about buying A class yourself / buying a $3000 gun. On the flip side a lot of really good shooters (Ms and GMs with major wins) cut their teeth with cheap guns, some still shoot with them.
     
  22. fieldgrade

    fieldgrade Well seasoned member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I thought this was an IPSC/USPSA rant.

    SSP, ESP, CDP, CCP, Rev, Bug, and....PCC.

    7 divisions you’ll ever see run in in the largest club match in the Carolinas, probably in the southeast. Not sure which 10 you speak of.

    And FWIW, we have, uh, er, unfortunate leadership these days.

    so rant on, lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  23. Beef15

    Beef15 B or somesuch

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    Didn't they come into the 21st century and start an optics division?
     
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  24. fieldgrade

    fieldgrade Well seasoned member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Okay, 8.

    lol
     
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  25. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    I thought I read somewhere that Bug was broken out to revolver and auto. And Revolver was broken out to .38 Spl and .357.

    But, yeah, optics and PCC makes 8 on the official site so I'll go with that.
     
  26. fieldgrade

    fieldgrade Well seasoned member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    In BUG specific matches we shoot semi and rev, but in regular matches it’s just BUG.

    And I did forget CO.

    Next we should have Tazers.
     
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  27. Millie

    Millie Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Yeah, what's up with the "lady" category?? I'm new to all this, but I saw that and went, "What?? Why?"
    We can't shoot as well as men, seems to be the implication for having a separate category based on our gender. I don't get it. Maybe it's just me being contrary.
     
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  28. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    I thought I made it clear but perhaps I didn't. I'm not "griping" about the various gun divisions existing. What I am saying is that there were instances in the past when it appeared that a particular equipment rule modification happened that was NOT as a result of grassroots member / shooter demand.

    No, I won't name names. I'm probably skating on the edge of a "disrepute" charge here as it is. I'm sure if you know anyone that has been in the game for more than 15 years they could tell you about rumors of strange decisions by the board or household name shooters using guns that were maybe not quite within the rules. Maybe these were all just baseless rumors. Maybe not.

    As for me "buying A class", what I meant is when I bought a second hand Para I was able to be scored Major in a division where my previous minor scoring was a huge disadvantage and then I moved up in class. As for the $3,000 STI -- that was a splurge simply because I could. Kind of like coming into some money and buying a Harley even though I would only ride it one day a week. Do these things make me a hypocrite?

    Finally, as to your point about the really cheap guns. Yeah, not many started playing the game with a fully tricked out Open or Limited guns. But I would venture a guess that there are not many GM's with major wins shooting Glocks or CZs or Tanfos that are not heavily modified. Those modifications are the very reason the Production Division rules are so extensive. "Entry level" Practical Carry / Production quickly turned into Pro Stock Class because that is just the nature of competition. Nobody is going to opt for less horsepower than the rules allow.

    ETA - Oh, forgot to add......... when I began shooting the Para in Limited and Practical Carry became a provisional division the G17 was good to go in it with mags only loaded to 10. So of course I shot that some, too. It's fun shooting different guns and different game plans.

    And that's my real "gripe" if I have one. The politics and rules juggling takes a lot of the fun out of it. Which is why I said at the outset -- I can't vote for people who can't seem to leave well enough alone and just let the 99% just have fun one day a week.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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  29. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    And lest anyone think I have a hard on for just USPSA, the NRA was just as bad when I started shooting competitively.

    I was shooting NRA Action Pistol / Bianchi Cup back then and the club I was with was putting on a state championship. $40 entry fee. Trophy match & bragging rights.

    Got a notice from NRA Competitions that we were required to hand out awards to the Overall Match Winner, the winners of each of the 4 events (stages in USPSA terms), the high shooter in each of the 5 classification levels for each of the 4 stages (20 in total), High Lady, High Law Enforcement, I can't remember what else but it seems like they wanted 29 awards handed out. If there was just one Sharpshooter he would automatically win 4 awards for being the best Sharpshooter on all 4 stages.

    When I called and protested that we couldn't afford that many trophies the guy told me --- oh, we didn't have to hand out trophies, we could just hand out ribbons that we could buy from........... the NRA.

    Everyone a winner is how to boost participation is another thing the guy told me.
     
  30. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    Look up Julie Golob. I shot with her and her dad when she was a kid. I used to beat her now and then. LOL. That didn't last long. She really did well in the sport.
     
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  31. Butter

    Butter President of Hat Division Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Yea, PCCers should find their own game. Go back to your mom’s basement and finish your D&D game you losers
     
  32. 9Baller

    9Baller Member

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    Speaking about production, I guess I see the rule changes as something I wouldn’t do, but also something that doesn’t effect the game a whole lot and certainly doesn’t effect the results.

    I’ve shot several national champs’ guns during classes and to a man can say that the gun was never mind blowing. I think the guys constantly looking to push the rules envelope with parts are looking in the wrong place. Some guys are into tinkering and the rules changes certainly are an enabler for them. That being said, a lot of championships have been won with guns under $1000, including modifications. You can literally buy a $600 gun, show up as a new shooter and compete. You can take the same gun and make it nationally competitive for less than $200 more if you get serious. To me that meets the intent of production.
     
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  33. FatboyFlash

    FatboyFlash Senior Member

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    I just like going out and blasting! I enjoy the smack talk and the general camaraderie of the sport as well as the competition. I did end up dropping an exorbitant amount of money on a new open gun and I’m actually a worse shooter for having done it. I’m slowly getting back to where I was with my 4th hand open gun. It’s just time behind the trigger and rounds down range. I love the sport and am truly addicted to it. I will never be a GM class shooter in any division but I have seen a huge improvement of my skills since I first started 4 years ago and will continue to enjoy the sport as long as I keep seeing some improvements. Lord willing and the creek don’t rise, I’ll be shooting Spartanburg this Saturday and there is going to be some serious HEAT (shooters) at this match. I’m going with the full intention of beating everyone that comes but with the knowledge that I will not...... Or will I? You just don’t know until you show up and step up! See ya on the range ya bunch sissies:D
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  34. Butter

    Butter President of Hat Division Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    TRUTH!! And pants down hugs
     
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  35. notso556

    notso556 Member

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    I don't want to beat this horse beyond this (hopefully) last post. But my "fantastic rant" (LOL) was in response to the notice of the ongoing election. I'm at fault for derailing my own point I was trying to make. So let me do a little recap to try and clear things up.

    What we hear most when leadership -- officers and board members -- speak about the USPSA organization and its future is "growing the sport" and "participation". And often new divisions, implemented or being considered, are pointed to as the means to that end. My contention is, aside from Production Division, this is just not the case.

    Production is an entryway for a lot of people due to the low cost of equipment. It was intended to be just that when first introduced as "Practical Carry" back in 1994 or 95. At least that's the way it was sold to the membership at the time. I was there.

    But many experienced shooters quickly saw the new division as a place to win. Either win local bragging rights or win real stuff since manufactures of those qualifying guns saw this new division as a new, untapped market and jumped in to become sponsors at the major match levels.

    And an upper tier sponsor needs a pro or two to win for them so they can run that "Production National Champion shoots our gun" ad and sell more product. So the new "entry level" division became very competitive very quickly. Which really came as no surprise.

    But this competition led to the myriad and still ongoing to this day rule changes and "interpretations". A modification arms race, if you will. All of which is annoying but, as @9Baller accurately points out, doesn't really mean anything when it comes to determining the national champion. It's the archer, not the arrow.

    But rules and modifications are side issues that I allowed to distract from my main point. Getting back to that.....

    Production still serves as a gateway and probably does allow a lot of new participants to get their feet wet. But I contend that Production is the only division that does that. It is my belief that Single Stack, Carry Optics, PCC are all lateral moves. Nobody sat on the sidelines, never shooting a match, until USPSA added those divisions. If those divisions were not available those shooters would be in Open, Limited, or Production. So there is no gain at the club level.

    At the national level, splitting up national championships or creating new ones did allow more participation by "burgers & beer" shooters on a shooting vacation to get the tee shirt but as for the pros it just gave them another shot at a title and gave their sponsors another stage to highlight their products. A small gain in "participation" here, if anyone really wants to tout that.

    If forced to I could probably dig out 25 years worth of Front Sights and try to do some membership number comparisons - if that data is even published. I don't think it is, at least not anymore. But what I have seen over the years is one gun club starts holding matches and another club drops out. Monthly matches fall from 100 shooters to 60 in one area and wait lists exist in another. And I keep seeing folks talking about "30,000 members" but the ID numbers are way over 100,000. That's a lot of attrition.

    I'm not sure membership and / or match participation has really increased much over the years. I can't prove it but I sure as hell don't see hard numbers to support that claim. I would think that if those hard numbers do exist they would be published, shouted from the rooftops --- "In 1994 we had 20,000 members, in 2014 we had 30,000 members, today we have 50,000 members. Look what these new divisions have done for us." That would be something to run on.

    Anything less is just election year smoke. And that's the way I think folks should look at it. Vote if it makes you feel good but it's all just smoke. That's the point I was trying to make in the first place. Sorry it took so long.

    Happy Independence Day, everyone.
     
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  36. JedPool

    JedPool New Member

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    I prefer limited as a gateway because I want to fully load my magazines and mod my gun. Although the latest production rule changes did make my grip mods legal.

    I would like it if limited minor became its own division because I don't reload. I think the growth of carry optics and the continued success of production partly comes from the availability of cheap 9mm ammo and no scoring disadvantage within the division.
     
  37. 9Baller

    9Baller Member

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    The Zev v. Salient v. Taran v. Agency division? Hope not.
     
  38. Butter

    Butter President of Hat Division Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I fully expected an announcement by now
     
  39. Beef15

    Beef15 B or somesuch

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    Forsyth
    It happened. Mike won.
    Turn out was possibly better by percentages then real elections but still pretty awful for not having to leave home.
     
    Butter, ncav8tor and Wolffy like this.