We warned you bumpstocks were the beginning

11B CIB said:
if I turn a fork sideways and cut something with it, is the fork now a knife?


I guess if the ATF said it then we should bow to our new overlords. Same agency that declared a shoestring a machine gun. Makes perfect sense



you made the assumption about it by looking at the picture of it having not handled it in person. Guess that’s what the ATF did also


Gun owners selling eachother out over this just like the bump stocks
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Nope, the bump stock issue is worse and a curtain rod is a bump stock and they did not ban curtain rods. We've had the SBR thing for years and we were all fine and dandy owning our AR pistols with fixed braces. Now you have a company come along and push the envelop too far and it will screw us all.
 
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Goofyfoot2001 said:
Nope, the bump stock issue is worse and a curtain rod is a bump stock and they did not ban curtain rods. We've had the SBR thing for years and we were all fine and dandy owning our AR pistols with fixed braces. Now you have a company come along and push the envelop too far and it will screw us all.
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Wrong. The company did not "push the envelope too far" because not you, the ATF, or anyone else can define what the envelope is and therefore what may or may not be too far. If you make up rules as you go and/or apply your assigned "power" as you see fit, then that in and of itself is not law nor regulation. It is in fact tyranny.

Definition of Tyranny: cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.
 
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JRHorne said:
Wrong. The company did not "push the envelope too far" because not you, the ATF, or anyone else can define what the envelope is and therefore what may or may not be too far. If you make up rules as you go and/or apply your assigned "power" as you see fit, then that in and of itself is not law nor regulation. It is in fact tyranny.

Definition of Tyranny: cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.
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You beat me to it....
 
Dear #BATFE,
If I affix a playing card to impact the spokes of my bicycle wheel, have I created a motorcycle?
I hear that you are knowledgeable about such matters.
 
Goofyfoot2001 said:
Nope, the bump stock issue is worse and a curtain rod is a bump stock and they did not ban curtain rods. We've had the SBR thing for years and we were all fine and dandy owning our AR pistols with fixed braces. Now you have a company come along and push the envelop too far and it will screw us all.
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You're totally right. How dare a company interpret "shall not be infringed" to mean that they can continue making things that are functionally identical to things that have already been approved as "not illegal" by an unaccountable unelected government bureaucracy whose sole purpose is to infringe?
 
11B CIB said:
you made the assumption about it by looking at the picture of it having not handled it in person.
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yes, I formed an opinion from a photo and I am 100% prepared to modify that given more evidence. I'll stay subbed in case someone who has handled one of these has something to say.
 
Catfish said:
yes, I formed an opinion from a photo and I am 100% prepared to modify that given more evidence. I'll stay subbed in case someone who has handled one of these has something to say.
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Interestingly enough, so did the BATF*ers. And they used the same qualifier too.
 
Catfish said:
yes, I formed an opinion from a photo and I am 100% prepared to modify that given more evidence. I'll stay subbed in case someone who has handled one of these has something to say.
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Hi. I had a tailhook mod 2 which was also a length adjustable arm brace. it was approved by the ATF. It worked great as an arm brace because you could set the length to fit your forearm better. at the shortest setting, it hit on a very bony part of my arm and doesn't feel good. at the longer settings it felt fine.
It was no different, functionally, than the honeybadger brace.
You can argue that mine was on the buffer tube and the honeybadger is on rails... but tailhook and deadfoot have teamed up to make a version on a rail.
You can argue that the "wings" on their brace are too sturdy and make it into a stock... but the tailhook is a hard plastic brace that has a hard flip-down lever to brace your arm. in its folded position, it was 100% as sturdy as a stock. I know because, when i still had it - don't anymore..., it was legal to put to your shoulder sometimes as long as that wasn't the original intended purpose. I think it's one of the best braces on the market (for now).
 
DCGallim said:
Walk outside and yell at the sky, it’ll get you the same result.
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It's pretty nice outside, so I would say it's better to go out and yell at the sky. While the results will be the same with respect to the .gov and it's tyranny, you at least get some fresh air and might see a fun shaped cloud.





(when did I get so cynical?)
 
willpgn said:
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so, there actually is a congressman already sending a harshly worded letter? that is step 1 and gives other congresspeople somebody to do the work for them and just add their names.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
If I had to guess, I'd say it was right about the time you stopped entertaining liberal ideas...
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Sadly I used to think that I was a liberal. Supporting things like "equality under the law" and "freedom of thought, ideas and speech" and "you do your thing, I'll do mine and as long as we're not hurting each other it's all good". Wanted .gov out of "marriage" and "family" and "religion". But none of those things are actually "liberal" anymore, they're crazy talk.
 
New (to me) information:
The ATF is going after the entire pistol brace industry and current owners are threatened. (is this accurate?)
Honey Badger comes with other braces, not just the tailhook (google image search)
Tailhook brace does function as a brace (@DrScaryGuy). I still think it looks like a stock but I'll take your word for it.

If the ATF has reversed their former well documented position on pistol braces I'm with you guys and ready with my torch and pitchfork. Is that what's actually happening?
 
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OutLore said:
I don't understand why the ATF gets to create law, interpret law and enforce law at the same time.
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Familiarize yourself with the term CHEVRON DEFERENCE. It's a bunch of malarkey that allows the scum in DC to farm out rules and regulations (laws) to non-elected agencies and personnel. It is a dangerous precedent that the Supreme Court needs to ignore so that our elected officials can be held responsible for the laws created and not hide behind some other govt agency.
 
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DrScaryGuy said:
so, there actually is a congressman already sending a harshly worded letter? that is step 1 and gives other congresspeople somebody to do the work for them and just add their names.
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I took from the video commentary that Q is not the first, but seems to be a big one that is bringing this issue to light. Seems that 4 congressmen signed on to the letter that was recently sent to the DOJ. Links to send worded letters (editable from what I saw) to DOJ and the Whitehouse are in the vid description. I don’t know if the existing letter that the congressmen sent is out there to be signed on to. NRA has a similar link...didn’t see anything yet at GOA site (might have missed it).

Maybe this is ATF’s October surprise!?!? o_O
 
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Larue uses the same stock on one of their pistols, did they get a letter?

ATF also demanded their other versions of the HB, one which has an SB3 to see if it was compliant.
 
The fact that the ATF attempts to prosecute individuals based on an arbitrary and undocumented set of guidelines has me both furious and concerned. I personally have a brace, but find myself questioning the places that I take it, and how I use the weapon it is attached to. In particular is the lack of length of pull requirement. In Ohio, a lawful gun owner was (unsuccessfully) prosecuted for having a brace due to length of pull. In that case, the ATF sited 13.5" maximum length of pull. It turned out that the ATF didn't even know how to properly measure.

Two problems.

1. The ATF didn't know how to properly measure a weapon's LOP
2. The requirement for maximum LOP was never, and still has not been defined (so far as I know) in the public domain. It was a discussion held between the manufacturer, and the ATF. So, I as a consumer/firearms user have no knowledge of such requirement (still don't)
 
ENTERKO said:
I personally have a brace, but find myself questioning the places that I take it, and how I use the weapon it is attached to.
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mission accomplished.

the left (and the .gov) want to 'change the culture' so gun people are driven underground, keep anyone new from 'getting into the game' and make sure that the next generation of subjects knows nothing about guns or resisting. by making it so the average person can't even figure out if the products they're got are legal to use, it adds to the uncertainty and confusion and makes it just that much harder to 'give up and move on'. not saying it's right, or that it's anyone's fault, it's just what is being done to us.
 
Oh, the irony - that brace had to be approved by ATF as a brace before it went to market.

I assume they are going after Q as a test case. Very few can or want to spend that kind of dough on an AR pistol. However, if it sticks with Q, they can go after any of the SB braces, or any adjustable brace with the Q precedent to build on. This is only the beginning if it is not stopped now.
 
Jayne said:
mission accomplished.

the left (and the .gov) want to 'change the culture' so gun people are driven underground, keep anyone new from 'getting into the game' and make sure that the next generation of subjects knows nothing about guns or resisting. by making it so the average person can't even figure out if the products they're got are legal to use, it adds to the uncertainty and confusion and makes it just that much harder to 'give up and move on'. not saying it's right, or that it's anyone's fault, it's just what is being done to us.
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Couldn't agree more, it's infuriating.

I see this most often when I bring one of my suppressors to shoot with friends that are more causal enthusiasts. They are either unaware of their availability, or don't have the knowledge regarding how to obtain NFA items.
 
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DrScaryGuy said:
You're totally right. How dare a company interpret "shall not be infringed" to mean that they can continue making things that are functionally identical to things that have already been approved as "not illegal" by an unaccountable unelected government bureaucracy whose sole purpose is to infringe?
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We can say "Shall not be infringed" till we are blue in the face. The fact is that this gun is now illegal. Period. Do I like it, nope, do I think it is infringement, yep. I think we should be free to own machine guns. But the rule is pretty clear about shouldering and buttstocks. Curtain rods are bump stocks and they should clarify if curtain rods are illegal but they don;t care what we think.
 
premise said:
Larue uses the same stock on one of their pistols, did they get a letter?

ATF also demanded their other versions of the HB, one which has an SB3 to see if it was compliant.
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It’s Noveske’s build called the Ghetto Blaster which uses the same brace


Catfish said:
New (to me) information:
The ATF is going after the entire pistol brace industry and current owners are threatened. (is this accurate?)
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probably, it’s just not public yet

Honey Badger comes with other braces, not just the tailhook (google image search)
Tailhook brace does function as a brace (@DrScaryGuy). I still think it looks like a stock but I'll take your word for it.

If the ATF has reversed their former well documented position on pistol braces I'm with you guys and ready with my torch and pitchfork. Is that what's actually happening?
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the honeybadger doesn’t use the tail hook.

Tail hook Mod 2
umHNOiu.jpg


honey badger pistol:
rvp7YvM.jpg


It’s more like a PDW brace but it’s proprietary

The sugar weasel uses a gray SBA3


And the ATF has already changed their position on the braces twice. Theyll probably come after all of them eventually
 
With an adjustable length brace that has a shoulder pad I can not see any functional difference between a brace equipped AR pistol and a SBR. I was very surprised by the original ATF interpretation that braces are perfectly legal while SBRs require special approval.

That being said once you make a ruling like that you ought to stick to it and not change it willy nilly some time later after god knows how many have been sold.

The bump stock ban is even worse because it completely ignores the letter of the law it is supposedly based on (technical definition of full auto function).
 
Stogies said:
With an adjustable length brace that has a shoulder pad I can not see any functional difference between a brace equipped AR pistol and a SBR. I was very surprised by the original ATF interpretation that braces are perfectly legal while SBRs require special approval.

That being said once you make a ruling like that you ought to stick to it and not change it willy nilly some time later after god knows how many have been sold.

The bump stock ban is even worse because it completely ignores the letter of the law it is supposedly based on (technical definition of full auto function).
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Wheres the shoulder pad? It’s closed off to prevent the buffer tube from being exposed and it’s trimmed down to reduce the overall flat surface that is back there

DiFirs7.jpg


What’s even crazier is that an AR pistol over 26” with a VFG makes it a “firearm”.

The whole NFA system is mind boggling

Does anyone have a honey badger they can measure the length of pull? My google fu is lacking
 
Don’t think I saw this posted in the thread. Gives me some hope. Worth the 15 minutes or so to watch it.

 
This is all a last minute push to seperate a voting base. The wolves just took off the sheep clothing to put this out there. A lot more people then this bs agency has realized is in the fight. Thought they could pick on a little guy but don't realize the bigger folks who have their back.
 
11B CIB said:
Does anyone have a honey badger they can measure the length of pull? My google fu is lacking
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There are a couple good pictures in this thread. drop one of them into paintbrush, measure the number of pixels between known points (e.g. the horizontal distance between hammer and trigger pins) and then math it out for the overall length
 
11B CIB said:
Does anyone have a honey badger they can measure the length of pull? My google fu is lacking
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the lower picture in post #72 appears to be a pretty even 25" at that brace extension and with the muzzle brake on (which does not contribute to OAL... a removable brace also used to not count for OAL, but who knows what the ATF is measuring these days
 
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BigWaylon said:
Don’t think I saw this posted in the thread. Gives me some hope. Worth the 15 minutes or so to watch it.

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BigTwig said:
This is all a last minute push to seperate a voting base. The wolves just took off the sheep clothing to put this out there. A lot more people then this bs agency has realized is in the fight. Thought they could pick on a little guy but don't realize the bigger folks who have their back.
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I've been loosely following this issue.

So to, separate a voting base?
Yes, however I believe there are other possible caveats to this, determination?

One such caveat, Mission Creep to support a "Heels-Up-Harris" presidency ( legitimate or Not ) in Dis-Arming America.

In the video it's pointed out that the current ATF is not Trumps but run by hold overs from O.

We are and have been in a "Cold Civil War" and our 1st Amendment Rights have been under attack as well.
Another example (IMHO) of mission creep is Not reining in tech giants that are censoring our speech.

Listen to her again for the first time,

Disarm the people to enslave them and not do it openly, weaken them and let them sink gradually

 
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