What people want in a handgun.

  • Thread starter 18DAI
  • Start date
  • Replies 24
  • Views 686
1

18DAI

Guest
An 11oz 50cal, that holds 25 rounds, fits in their sweatpants pocket and has less recoil than a 22. Oh, and costs no more than $200. ;)

Sadly, for those seeking such a pistol, nobody makes anything close. And I have them coming into the LGS where I work part-time seeking such a gun everyday. And the vast majority, fully 80%, have never fired a firearm. At all. Never.

Another 10% "....shot my dads handgun back when I was a teenager once....." or something similar along those lines. They do have ideas about what they want. Ideas evidently based on the advice of "gun experts" that they are either related to or aquainted with. Heres a few samples. ;)

"I shot my boyfriends all steel 4 inch 38 revolver. It was way too heavy and the recoil hurt my hand. He says I need a s&w bodyguard in 380." "I don't know anything about guns. I've never shot one. I want a scandium J-frame 357. My husband says thats what I need. Are they very loud when you shoot them?" A 5 foot, thin female comes in. She has a shiny new CCW permit. She qualified with a Ruger SR22. But she wants an m&p 45 full size to carry concealed. Because her dad said 45s are the only caliber that is deadly. ?????

If you like handguns a LGS is a terrible place to work. Even part-time. ;)

But thankfully a lot of folks will listen to reason. I send them off to the local indoor range, which usually has a rental example of the gun they think they need. The vast majority, who go there BEFORE making a purchase, come back wanting something other than what they were advised to buy. A few even sign up for shooting lessons and even fewer for some legitimate training.

So if you know anyone who is contemplating buying a handgun for personal protection, do them a favor and take them shooting. Start them with a 22. Let them experience a full sized 9mm or steel 38 after that. Then introduce them to compacts and subcompacts. So they can have a good idea of their capabilities and what works for them. Before they venture out and spend their hard earned money. You will be doing them a great service. And they may even thank you for it! ;) :) Regards 18DAI
 
Thankfully, the owner is a stand up guy. He has actually told us that he doesn't care if a customer buys a gun or not. He wants them treated well and all their questions answered. He figures that there are enough gunshops that will foist whatever has sat the longest on an unknowing customer.

Thsts why he hired us based on training and actual experience with whatever subject matter we deal in. The manager is a former Champion skeet shooter and long range rifle competitor. A couple of the other guys are former MIL/LE AR authorities. Me and another guy deal with handguns. We are not on commision and specialize in providing information and support PRIOR to the sale as well as after. Interesting business model that works very well.

Although I still preferred working at the local range as an instructor. That where I was when I got recruited and talked into doing sales. And I miss all the free ammo and shooting 300 to 500 rounds a week. ;)

But every once in awhile I get to save someome either money or heartache, so thats the upside. And I enjoy talking to the other old mossbacks who come in and swap lies. :) Regards 18DAI
 
60700445.jpg
 
I just want Hi-Point to redesign their carbines to get the ugly out. I mean seriously, this is not rocket science. They had to work hard on making ugly guns. But all I want is a 12 round 9mm DA hammer that weighs less than 20oz loaded.

OH! and fits in my sweats pocket.
 
Last edited:
In the last year or so I have introduced 7 people to shooting (4F/3M). I also let Millie shoot some of my stuff. I own a couple of things but have less to choose from than the typical CFF member.

All 7 enjoyed shooting .22
5/5 enjoyed shooting my .32 Tomcat (did not take it on every range trip)
6/7 were fine with my Ruger SP 101 4" when shooting .38sp
4/7 were fine with my Ruger shooting .357 mag
Only 2/7 were fine with either a Px4 compact (9mm) or a Glock 26 g4

Millie has also not been a fan of 9mm but she shot many things to help her make her decisions (good job!).

I think there may be too much emphasis on making firearms light (easy to carry) and not enough on holsters and gear to carry the firearm that you are actually comfortable shooting.

There are so many things out there that everyone should be able to find something, but they need to understand that it is not free to rent all the things and that some things are not actually for rent anywhere. That is where I think we all come in as "ambassadors". I see a lot of great things coming out of this community, and I wish there were similar communities like this to help in other states.

Not everyone here is interested in recruiting newbies, and that is fine...but if you are approached by a newbie and don't want to deal with them please pass them along to someone who is.
 
Yup, keep preaching it! To this day I am astounded at the number of people who have not shot or have shot very little that go out and buy the gun someone told them to buy. Then show up at a CCH class expecting to walk out knowing everything they need to know. Said it before and saying it again, I have had some real trepidation signing those certificates for some people in the classes.
 
This is probably the reason why I have bought more .22 handguns during the last month than anything else. Once you have a 'private' range, and invite various people to come shoot, you start learning to start
at the beginning.

I even have to tell more experienced shooters "no, since I'm paying for the ammo we're starting with rimfires :D"

I let em shoot as much rimfire ammo as they want, then we get to start ramping it up.
 
Last edited:
Ferrisfan said:
In the last year or so I have introduced 7 people to shooting (4F/3M). I also let Millie shoot some of my stuff. I own a couple of things but have less to choose from than the typical CFF member.

All 7 enjoyed shooting .22
5/5 enjoyed shooting my .32 Tomcat (did not take it on every range trip)
6/7 were fine with my Ruger SP 101 4" when shooting .38sp
4/7 were fine with my Ruger shooting .357 mag
Only 2/7 were fine with either a Px4 compact (9mm) or a Glock 26 g4

Millie has also not been a fan of 9mm but she shot many things to help her make her decisions (good job!).

I think there may be too much emphasis on making firearms light (easy to carry) and not enough on holsters and gear to carry the firearm that you are actually comfortable shooting.

There are so many things out there that everyone should be able to find something, but they need to understand that it is not free to rent all the things and that some things are not actually for rent anywhere. That is where I think we all come in as "ambassadors". I see a lot of great things coming out of this community, and I wish there were similar communities like this to help in other states.

Not everyone here is interested in recruiting newbies, and that is fine...but if you are approached by a newbie and don't want to deal with them please pass them along to someone who is.
Click to expand...
It was nice of you guys to help me eliminate a lot of things from my list that I thought would work for me. In the end I went with the p238 for my carry gun, and have since fallen in love with my 9mm 1911 and my Rossi revolver. Much heavier guns than I originally thought I needed or could handle!
All these things would not have been possible without nice people taking me shooting and letting me figure out for myself what works for me!
 
I always start new shooters off on a S&W 19 loaded with 38 Spl. I am just not a 22LR pistol guy. I have a Ruger MKII but I hardly ever shoot it and hardly ever start people on it. I have started some people on it but for me the 22LR is a completely different shooting experience than centerfire calibers and I get bored with it a notice others often do as well. It is good for people who have never shot at all because it helps them get used to the noise without being too intimidating. Most new shooters I shoot with have shot before but they just don't have a lot of trigger time and need some guidance.

So I start with the S&W 19. It has a nice trigger, balance in the hand and a weight which helps with the recoil. I load up some powder puff 38 Spl loads and I only load 1 round into the cylinder until I can make sure they can handle a gun safely. I then work my way up to a full cylinder. From there is if they are still showing good progress and safety I move them to a full sized 9mm auto. Once they have shot that and are still in the game we move to different sized 9mm and full sized 45 ACP. Only at the end do I let them shoot some of the "popular" small carry guns like a LCP, S&W Airweight Etc. It is easy for them to immediately recognize that the smaller guns in the same calibers they have been shooting all day have more recoil impulse, shorter sight radius, less capacity and are in general harder to shoot.

I then tell people to shoot as many different guns as they can before buying something. You have to remember that it is not just guns. Its cars, TVs, Cell Phones, Cameras etc.... that people buy all the time without really knowing what they want or what is best. Most often people are listening to what other people have recommend or told them. They read stuff on the Internet etc. Some of that info is good some of it is terrible.

I also always ask why are you looking to get a gun? What are you going to use it for? Is it for protection? Are you going to carry it? Will it serve multiple rolls or just one? I also ask how often are you realistically going to shoot? I then try to drive home that the intended use should dictate gear not the other way around. If you understand how you are going to use the gun the chances of getting the "right" gun goes up. Also people need to understand that other gear like holsters, sights, belts & grips can all make or break a gun's usefulness in a given individuals hands. There is no one size fits all. There are so many good choices in the marketplace today there is not reason to make poor uninformed choices. Some people get it. Some people don't.
 
Last edited:
18DAI said:
An 11oz 50cal, that holds 25 rounds, fits in their sweatpants pocket and has less recoil than a 22. Oh, and costs no more than $200. ;)

Sadly, for those seeking such a pistol, nobody makes anything close. And I have them coming into the LGS where I work part-time seeking such a gun everyday. And the vast majority, fully 80%, have never fired a firearm. At all. Never.

Another 10% "....shot my dads handgun back when I was a teenager once....." or something similar along those lines. They do have ideas about what they want. Ideas evidently based on the advice of "gun experts" that they are either related to or aquainted with. Heres a few samples. ;)

"I shot my boyfriends all steel 4 inch 38 revolver. It was way too heavy and the recoil hurt my hand. He says I need a s&w bodyguard in 380." "I don't know anything about guns. I've never shot one. I want a scandium J-frame 357. My husband says thats what I need. Are they very loud when you shoot them?" A 5 foot, thin female comes in. She has a shiny new CCW permit. She qualified with a Ruger SR22. But she wants an m&p 45 full size to carry concealed. Because her dad said 45s are the only caliber that is deadly. ?????

If you like handguns a LGS is a terrible place to work. Even part-time. ;)

But thankfully a lot of folks will listen to reason. I send them off to the local indoor range, which usually has a rental example of the gun they think they need. The vast majority, who go there BEFORE making a purchase, come back wanting something other than what they were advised to buy. A few even sign up for shooting lessons and even fewer for some legitimate training.

So if you know anyone who is contemplating buying a handgun for personal protection, do them a favor and take them shooting. Start them with a 22. Let them experience a full sized 9mm or steel 38 after that. Then introduce them to compacts and subcompacts. So they can have a good idea of their capabilities and what works for them. Before they venture out and spend their hard earned money. You will be doing them a great service. And they may even thank you for it! ;) :) Regards 18DAI
Click to expand...
What a great Post!!!
 
Miss Lily said:
I have had some real trepidation signing those certificates for some people in the classes.
Click to expand...
I have 6 or more CWP instructors that come here regularly. NONE have EVER Failed a shooter. Have you? What circumstances would have to happen to show you that a person had NO business carrying a handgun? How many FAILS do you give to get them qualified?
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
What a great Post!!!
Click to expand...
18 is a serious shooter, profoundly knowledgeable and I'm proud to count him among my friends (except while I'm watching him hit targets I can't even see :mad:).

He doesn't post often, but when he does, it's thoughtful and good reading. Thanks 18.
 
Last edited:
I start by asking what do they want or for.
Frequently I’ll take them to a gun show to put multiple quality guns in their hands and look for a fit, natural point of aim.
I’ll bring them out to try multiple guns, starting with the basics on a 22.
9/10 will hit a 10” plate at 50 yards first shot with the suppressed Ruger MKIII. Then they’re thrilled.
 
Last edited:
Jeppo said:
18 is a serious shooter, profoundly knowledgeable and I'm proud to count him among my friends (except while I'm watching him hit targets I can't even see :mad:).

He doesn't post often, but when he does, it's thoughtful and good reading. Thanks 18.
Click to expand...

I have never met the man but have crossed paths with him on this and other forums and I hold him in high regard. He knows his stuff.

BatteryOaksBilly said:
For shooters with no background we too start them with a Ruger 5 1/2 inch Bull Barrel and a cheap red dot. When thy hear Bang followed by Ding, they are hooked.
Click to expand...

That really is the key isn't it. Making it something they enjoy and want to do.
 
Last edited:
When I was working as an instructor at the local range, we had literally thousands of new shooters to teach and hundreds more to "qualify" for the CCW Permit.

This was in 2014/2015 and although I had read, in the newspapers and on the net how many people were buying guns and getting CCW permits, I was stunned at the lines of people every day when we opened the door. I had no idea that many people lived in Greensboro let alone wanted a gun and to learn how to operate it. In fact, the influx of folks was how I got hired on.

The owner was a friend of over 30 years. He heard I had retired from Investigatioms with the state. He called me one afternoon and asked me if I would consider coming to work for him teaching new shooters how to operate a revolver. All the guys working for him were younger and while they were certified as instructors and COULD shoot a revolver, none had any experience with them. I did. Decades worth. Carrying it at work for serious purpose.

So I started and quickly wound up working full time as well as teaching semi auto's too. In all the time I worked there, I only "disqualified" three people. Two later came back (with another instructor because both of these folks were dangerous and I refused to work with them - they weren't paying me THAT much. ;) ) The three I disqualified persisted in breaking safety rules - turning from down range with a loaded gun with their finger on the trigger - stepping behind the line with the handguns cylinder closed or slide forward - one had a negligent discharge into the floor in front of the stall - and one just couldn't put 30 rounds into the B27 to qualify. Her rounds were all over the paper, no matter how many times we covered the basics and reviewed the safety procedures.

I felt bad for every one of them that I sent back. I felt like I had failed them in not being able to get the "light to click on" so they could shoot and get their permit. The owner aleviated those thoughts when he asked me if I would want the 3 folks wandering around carrying guns where my family might be present. ........No....I don't guess I would want that.

Now unrelated to Battery Oaks original question, I happily threw A LOT of jackasses out of the place over an almost 3 year period. ;) We had signs on the door and in the lobby. HUGE signs which asked politely that; PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE FIREARMS FROM THEIR CASES OR HOLSTERS WHILE IN THE LOBBY. Everyday I would have 3 or 4 folks who either could not read or just couldn't follow a simple direction. And I would have to disarm them. Oh, and when I dropped their loaded mags, fully 99% of them didn't have a round in the chamber. Extremely foolish, on their part. If you wanted to steal a gun, the gun range is a safe bet to find one. NEVER enter or leave with an empty gun.

Some of the folks were normal decent folks who got distracted by running into friends and wanted to show their "new guns". Those folks got a polite admonishment and reminder to read the sign.

The others were just.......ignorant.....or arrogant.....and stupid. If they gave us any lip, they got their membership revoked (for the safety of the other members) and forcefully escorted to the parking lot and told not to return. Thankfully there were not too many of those incidents. But they happened far more often than you would imagine.

As a team, we wanted EVERY new shooter and enthusiast to be safe, be safe and have fun. We wanted to welcome more people into the world of responsible gun ownership. And we went overboard to do so. But as in every aspect of life, you get some folks who either can't or won't pay attention and cooperate with the efforts of the staff. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI
 
18...

I’ve only been to that range once and just to look around. I was perusing the rental guns in the case while a woman was speaking with a fellow behind the counter. At a certain point, either she asked about, or he proposed a VP9SK. He explained they didn’t have one for rent but she ought to at least find one to handle before deciding what to buy. Eavesdropper that I was, I blurted out that I was carrying one and she was welcome to inspect it.

The fellow insisted on disarming me and clearing it himself.
 
Last edited:
BatteryOaksBilly said:
I have 6 or more CWP instructors that come here regularly. NONE have EVER Failed a shooter. Have you? What circumstances would have to happen to show you that a person had NO business carrying a handgun? How many FAILS do you give to get them qualified?
Click to expand...

@BatteryOaksBilly I have failed only 3 for CCH. One was removed from the range due to total lack of ability to even load magazines, let alone shoot. This person was given the opportunity to retake the class free of charge. I don't know if this happened as I am merely 1 of 20 instructors at our range. A second person failed both the written test and shooting qualification. That person was also given a chance to retake the class and declined. The third failed the shooting qualification twice and given opportunity to retake class and again I am not sure of outcome.

In NC, there are a large majority of people who go the CCH route to avoid the PPP requirement.

All that said, I have had students who have passed the course but gave a vibe by attitude and questions asked that made me leary but, I had no tangible basis to deny the certificate. These are the ones that I was referring to. The ones who you can just feel will get the permit, throw a gun in their pocket and never continue training or further educat themselves.
 
I start people out with my SIRT TRAINER to allow them to see how a laser gives the point of impact to the sights. I teach my friends proper stance, grip, trigger control.

I progress from 3 yards to 10.

Then I place a 22 LR rifle onto a bench and have them shoot. They get the idea of recoil, sound and trigger, in addition to the feedback from hitting steel.

This is followed by a rifle in 22 LR while standing.

Then I proceed to a Ruger Mark II Target Competition. If they feel like moving forward, we go to the S&W Performance Center 8 Shot 627 357 Magnum Magnum with 38 special.

I’ll finish out with a Glock 17 or Glock 19. Alternatively I can put an CZ 75 SP-01 or CZ 75 Tactical in their hands.

I do not usually proceed further. Next time I take them out, I have them shoot at IDPA targets at 5, then 10, then 15 yards.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Jeppo the place was sold a few years back. My friend was having health issues and decided to retire. While I am a bit surprised that the fellow handled your kind offer to assist the way he did, its not the first story Ive heard about the new staff they have there. I declined an offer to stay on.

And thanks to you and wvsig for the kind words. Much appreciated. ;) Regards 18DAI
 
Miss Lily said:
In NC, there are a large majority of people who go the CCH route to avoid the PPP requirement.
Click to expand...
My family’s financial position would be MUCH healthier had I not gotten a CHP and continued having to ask the Sheriff’s permission for each purchase. :eek:
 
Last edited:
Miss Lily said:
In NC, there are a large majority of people who go the CCH route to avoid the PPP requirement.
Click to expand...

This is similar to when I lived in VA. If you had a CHP you avoided the one hand gun a month law. I believe that law was changed but back in the day it was a major reason people got a CHP.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom