When It All Gets REAL

SSgt75

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This will be difficult for me to write since it's a subject that most vets only discuss among themselves, but I'll try to keep it forum friendly.

Most of the members here haven't been in the military and the of vets in here many may not have been in combat. It is NOT like the movies or books you have read. But I hope others will chime in as they see fit.

For background, let me say that I'm a native North Carolinian, grew up in a small eastern NC town and joined the USMC when I was 17. Two tours in Vietnam in non-combat (supposedly) jobs, but got to see more blood and guts than I cared to see.

When the stuff hits the fan and it gets real you realize that it's not summer camp, a trip to the range or some tactical training exercise. Someone is REALLY trying to kill you. Do you have the mindset to pull the trigger on another human being? Does your training and muscle memory take over and you do what you KNOW instinctively that you have to do? Can you walk over the dead you've just killed and not puke your guts out or wet your pants when those bullets are coming your way? I've seen both happen. It's gory, not glorious. It's dirty, muddy, smelly. It assaults your senses in unimaginable ways. You'll have hunger, starvation, diseases and incurable wounds. Certain smells still bring flashbacks 50 years later. Those who have seen the elephant do not want to see it again. (With exceptions - there are some who ride the adrenalin rush and can't get enough of the killing, but they aren't the norm). War is horrible, but sometimes it is necessary - although I wish it were not. Might is the only thing some people and powers understand.

The problem with war is that no matter how "surgical" you try to make it there will be collateral damage. There will be non-combatants killed by accident. There will also be non-combatants killed on purpose to set an example by terror. We went through a ville in Nam where the VC had been through the night before and slaughtered everyone. Bayoneted women and children and they were laying in the hot sun, bloated with their guts sliced open and the flies and maggots already on them. All their food had been stolen and they were an example for other villages to not refuse the VC. These were not on the newsreels coming back from the reporters in Saigon hanging out in the bars and filing a story they got from somebody who got it from somebody else. The war I was reading about in my hometown newspaper was not the same war I was in. I'm sure the guys who were in Afghanistan or Iraq or Kuwait can all tell how their war was different from the "official" war story. But it doesn't matter which war you fight in, they are ALL about killing or being killed. You fight to stay alive and to help keep your fellow soldier/sailor/airman/Marine alive with you. It is not clean. It doesn't end at quitting time when the whistle blows. And after it is finally over after months or years you WILL carry it with you forever.

I know we're heading down a path that is untenable. When it will actually explode into total chaos I have no idea. I fear for my children and grandchildren and what kind of world they will have to live in. At 70 I'm too old and out of shape to run, so I'll just have to stand my ground and go out in a pile of empty brass - if it comes to that. And that I know I can do.

What I hope to try and say here is don't be in such a hurry to have this all go real. If it does, it does and be ready for it. If we get lucky and this cold war doesn't go hot we can breath a sigh of relief and have a good fun-time CFF get-together across the state.

Pray for Peace, But Prepare for War.
 
Damn good post! I haven't had the honor of serving this great country but my father and grandfather have. I truly pray that the day never comes when it's American vs American for it will be a war of brother vs brother, friend vs friend. People today have no idea what true war is like or about. I just pray that they come to their senses before they get a war they keep screaming for.....
 
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@SSgt75
Thank you for the thoughtful post.

For whatever reason I am reminded of a quote by General Mattis: "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some aholes in the world that just need to be shot."


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Excellent post. I have not personally been to war, but have known many who have, foreign and domestic (referring to LE that have BTDT).
There is a certain romance in the idea, fight the noble fight against innumerable odds and many get caught up in it, but I know I don't want my children to have to live in that world.
It will be ugly and brutal.
 
We could sit here and list all the battles in history and when you look at the individual soldier and what he went through it's all the same. Death and dying and the victor gets to write the history. Read some of the letters home from the Civil War soldiers or WWI or II. Even Vietnam. The diaries tell another story though. My mom saved all my letters and I still have them. My wife burned hers when we divorced. All my letters were 'sanitized' so Mom wouldn't worry (or my wife). But you can't write home and say that the guy next to you took a bullet through the head and his brains sprayed all over you. We just say "Shit Happens. It don't mean nothing" and keep on going. But suppose that was your wife or son or daughter who was fighting next to you in the coming insurrection. Could you just keep on going? Do you break down and wait for the other side to come kill you too? do you go crazy and jump up and charge them with guns blazing? No one knows what they will actually do until the situation drops on them. War sucks. There really aren't any winners. Just those who are left.
 
Reminds me of the scene with Mel Gibson in the Patriot when he is explaining that this will not be some romantic war in some far off land. It will be fought in our fields and homes with our sons and daughters. Look to Ireland, the Balkans and other places with civil wars at any level. It is not pretty. Maybe Merck will develop a pill for snowflakes and Anitfa and rid the world of Marxists forever. :D
 
Great thread. My Dad was in Korea during that nasty ordeal. He rapidly rose in rank to Staff Sgt. because of the terrible attrition rate. He has slowly let some stories out the last few years since myself, my brothers, and my sister are all older than 50. But he has many more he hasn't told us I'm sure.
 
My Grandfather was shot in the leg in the Ardennes Forest. He came back hating guns and basically a pacifist. The experience changed him. He let my Dad keep his 22 rifle, but never hunted or shot himself again. It takes a strong man to see and do some of things that need doing, and not have it alter you in some way. If it is close to home and involves family it has to be even more horrific.
 
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My Grandfather was shot in the leg in the Ardennes Forest. He came back hating guns and basically a pacifist. The experience changed him. He let my Dad keep his 22 rifle, but never hunted or shot himself again. It takes a strong man to see and do some of things that need doing, and not have it alter you in some way. If ot is close to home and involves family it has to be even more horrific.

Although my Dad keeps a lever action handy in his house for self defense, he hasn't shot a pistol or rifle since he was in Korea.
 
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I was thinking this a few days ago- I was named after my great-uncle, who fought in WWII in Italy in some pretty terrible stuff. He came home from the war, but ended up eating a bullet about 10 years later (before I was born). Nobody in the family ever talked about him, but after my Grandad died, I was given his medals and patches and I pieced together some of his story. I can only imagine what he went through and how much it tormented him for the rest of his life.
 
At 70 I'm too old and out of shape to run, so I'll just have to stand my ground and go out in a pile of empty brass - if it comes to that. And that I know I can do.

Don't sell yourself short....

On April 19, 1775, British forces were returning to Boston from the Battles of Lexington and Concord, the opening engagements of the war. On their march, they were continually shot at by colonial militiamen.


Sam Whittemore was in his fields when he spotted an approaching British relief brigade under Earl Percy, sent to assist the retreat. Whittemore loaded his musket and ambushed the British Grenadiers of the 47th Regiment of Foot from behind a nearby stone wall, killing one soldier. He then drew his dueling pistols, killed a second grenadier and mortally wounded a third. By the time Whittemore had fired his third shot, a British detachment had reached his position; Whittemore drew his sword and attacked. He was subsequently shot in the face, bayoneted numerous times, and left for dead in a pool of blood. He was found by colonial forces trying to load his musket to resume the fight. He was taken to Dr. Cotton Tufts of Medford, who perceived no hope for his survival. However, Whittemore recovered and lived another 18 years until dying of natural causes at the age of 96.
 
@SSgt75 thank you for your service sir. Thank you for having the strength to post. Pops served in Nam. Some of the stories he shared were heartbreaking. He shared many stories with us and told us there was stories he has that no man would hear and they would go with him. War is horrid. War is necessary. Let's keep it to bare necessities in the war department. Especially war with the same team.
 
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"(With exceptions - there are some who ride the adrenalin rush and can't get enough of the killing, but they aren't the norm.)"
And they will never be ( Thank God) & will be forever changed.
Thank You for your service Sir
 
Thank you for sharing that meaningful post. I'll add a quote from General Sherman.

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell"
 
Ssgt75...it was men like you that helped form this country 241 years ago, and it is men like you that will help see us thru the coming storm.

Thank you for your service, and for this thread.

And yes, @Lawless , the proper mindset will win the day.
 
Reminds me of the scene with Mel Gibson in the Patriot when he is explaining that this will not be some romantic war in some far off land. It will be fought in our fields and homes with our sons and daughters. Look to Ireland, the Balkans and other places with civil wars at any level. It is not pretty. Maybe Merck will develop a pill for snowflakes and Anitfa and rid the world of Marxists forever. :D

The snowflakes, antifas are fighting the war for the machine driving them and the Machine will never feel any pain. I greatly fear for my country and what I/my family/my children will face in the next 5-10 years.
 
The snowflakes, antifas are fighting the war for the machine driving them and the Machine will never feel any pain. I greatly fear for my country and what I/my family/my children will face in the next 5-10 years.
I am a father to two young children. Rarely does a day go by my wife and I don't discuss this.

My kids will need to be raised tougher than I ever was. I just pray they are spared at such young ages, and grow to maturity before things get very bad. They will need to be vigilant and aware, and because of this I rarely sensor myself when it comes to our enemies.
 
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Thank you for sharing such a meaningful post.

I have read that one of the theories as to why great was happen about every 100 years is that they occur after those who fought in the last one have passed and the living memories of it are no more.

I don't think folks here, or on this "side" want war, but rather are willing to go that route as a last resort if it's the only way to correct what is happening today.
 
I am a father to two young children. Rarely does a day go by my wife and I don't discuss this.

My kids will need to be raised tougher than I ever was. I just pray they are spared at such young ages, and grow to maturity before things get very bad. They will need to be vigilant and aware, and because of this I rarely sensor myself when it comes to our enemies.
Having two young adult students, I have reached the conclusion that the lens through which they will likely see things moving forward will be different than the one we view things through, simply because of "how things have been" for most of their lives, which is only a fraction of my life. Their perceptions will be different. My boys, like anyone else's, know how I think and many of my political opinions, but it doesn't mean they will think exactly the same way.

Which means, for good or for bad, they may not view things as being as terrible as I might.

Edit: I'll add that my oldest absolutely sees much of his generation (not all, but a large majority) for what they appear to be, and hates it. That said, I see a sad resignation in his attitude, because he's never seen it any other way in his lifetime.
 
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Having two young adult students, I have reached the conclusion that the lens through which they will likely see things moving forward will be different than the one we view things through, simply because of "how things have been" for most of their lives, which is only a fraction of my life. Their perceptions will be different. My boys, like anyone else's, know how I think and many of my political opinions, but it doesn't mean they will think exactly the same way.

Which means, for good or for bad, they may not view things as being as terrible as I might.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is one of, if not the fundamental, the key tenants of the 4th turning theory: that this pattern of different experiences carried out across the average long human lifespan of 80-100 years, overlapping in repeating patterns is why history rhymes, if not repeats, and enables us to predict what is coming.
 
Damn good post! I haven't had the honor of serving this great country but my father and grandfather have. I truly pray that the day never comes when it's American vs American for it will be a war of brother vs brother, friend vs friend. People today have no idea what true war is like or about. I just pray that they come to their senses before they get a war they keep screaming for.....


o_O
 
^ That's true Ash. Popular culture and to a finer point, television / movies / music have done the job where other mediums would have failed.

I remember listening to evangelists when I was young (revivals all the time) who said get the TVs out of your homes, turn off the radios in your cars and stay away from movie theaters because they will be the ruin of our children.

In hindsight, that was a dire warning that society ignored. We are reaping the crops from what collectivism sowed. The pendulum is just about at apex though, if we can survive it. This time, we should kill it off for good.
 
I think his point was about all consuming war. War in our homes, war that takes from everyone not just the soldiers. Iraq 1,2 and Afghanistan were principally just part of the 24 hour news cycle for those who weren't there or didn't have a family member there. Georgel pointed out that wasn't really many people as a percentage. So as a society at large we don't have that experience. Iraqis and Afghans do, I'm guessing Venezuelans are getting it. Hopefully your children's children remain blissfully ignorant.
This is not meant as a kick at vets of any conflict.
 
I think his point was about all consuming war. War in our homes, war that takes from everyone not just the soldiers. Iraq 1,2 and Afghanistan were principally just part of the 24 hour news cycle for those who weren't there or didn't have a family member there. Georgel pointed out that wasn't really many people as a percentage. So as a society at large we don't have that experience. Iraqis and Afghans do, I'm guessing Venezuelans are getting it. Hopefully your children's children remain blissfully ignorant.
This is not meant as a kick at vets of any conflict.

I didn't take it as a kick at vets. Lol
 
Thank you for your post and for your service.

I grew up in the "Vietnam Era". I grew up seeing many friends and relatives who suffered greatly after returning from VietNam.
My step dad at the time, and both his brothers all saw action. One of his brothers was a Marine and I think he saw a lot. He was profoundly affected by the war, and would be for the rest of his life. The things you have to do to survive, or help other soldiers survive, can be hard to live with.
As a youngster I dreamed of being like these men. Military men. Like most young men I was clueless and just wanted to be a SEAL, having only slightly outgrown the notion of being a Ninja! I stole copies of my dads "Soldier of Fortune" (he was a contractor for some time). I knew all about the guns, etc. Wore cammies around, etc.

But when I was 15 or so, my uncles (including the Marine) sat me down and explained in great detail some of the horror they witnessed and their feelings about the truth of War. It was an eye opener. To see these guys I idolized with that look in their eyes.

It stuck with me till this day. War is the worst that mankind is capable of.
 
Why don't you inform us all.

You really don't think there are other horrific things humans can do to one another that don't involve open conflict on a battlefield?

Keeping a girl locked in a basement for decades as a sex slave, forcing her through pregnancy and abortion? Human trafficking? Pushing drugs? Abusing kids? Serial murderers/rapists? And those are all largely individual actions. Think about the actions of a government, like Stalin's Russia during the Purges, or East Germany and the Stasi. Pol Pot's Cambodia. The list is endless.

You don't have to have your head down ducking fire to endure some horrible stuff.
 
I served one tour in Iraq, right at the end in 2011. Things were so stupid and PC by that time. But I've seen firsthand what a battle torn country looks like, it ain't pretty. I've seen what men will do to other men, women and children in the name of their Allah. It doesn't matter what the reason is, white hate or black hate, some people are just sitting back waiting for the opportunity to desecrate some bodies.

If/when the SHTF, I'll be grateful for that military background. It'll take more than shooting at paper targets to keep my ass alive. I'm proud of my service, and grateful for everyone's prior and after me.

"Wait till you see what a man can do to another man"
 
War is bad. You know what has given me PTSD though? Being a paramedic.

There are some experiences downrange that are truly unimaginable and horrible, the collateral damage I will never, ever forget. I would not wish to be in that situation again. None of those experiences have stuck with me as much as some as my paramedic experiences.
 
You really don't think there are other horrific things humans can do to one another that don't involve open conflict on a battlefield?

Keeping a girl locked in a basement for decades as a sex slave, forcing her through pregnancy and abortion? Human trafficking? Pushing drugs? Abusing kids? Serial murderers/rapists? And those are all largely individual actions. Think about the actions of a government, like Stalin's Russia during the Purges, or East Germany and the Stasi. Pol Pot's Cambodia. The list is endless.

You don't have to have your head down ducking fire to endure some horrible stuff.

WTF? Don't understand at all where this is coming from? It seems you read one sentence in my post and decided to ignore the message and go ahead and start policing this thread.

No, I do not think "pushing drugs", for example, is worse than what can happen in war. I don't think ANY of it is worse than what can happen in war. Do you know how many people have been raped in wars? It would be untold millions if you read a history book.

As a 48 year old man who has been around the block many times, I don't need you to inform me about all the horrible things man can and has done, but thanks!
 
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the tone of your post was immensely disrespectful. If indeed you were just asking him to elaborate, then I owe you an apology.

I don't need your approval or your apology.
 
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