T
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The Raping of Nanking.
When It All Gets REAL
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.........
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Let me stop you right now. You asked me, disrespectfully at best, what I meant, then misunderstood everything I said, you're getting an attitude, and jumping off the deep end here. Just stop. You don't get it, I tried to explain it, and you got pissed. I'm not policing anything. You seem to object to other points of view, so if anything, you're the one policing thoughts/opinions here.
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Can you understand that one of those posts was to you and one was to Cross? I wanted you to inform me what was worse than war.
But, I don't need Cross to inform me about what bad men can do, as I have seen plenty of it myself.
Really don't see or understand what point you are getting at.
If the point is that there are many things worse than war, I disagree completely.
Thank you, indeed it has.
Chuckman
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My 2 cents: Quoted by John Stuart Mills:
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”
Of course, some of what Mills was talking about is in the abstract. But yeah, I agree, there are things worse than war.
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”
Of course, some of what Mills was talking about is in the abstract. But yeah, I agree, there are things worse than war.
Compelling post and quote. I think it makes a good point about our argument here. To be clear: as awful as I think war is, I certainly believe it is often completely necessary. I think some may have interpreted my post to mean otherwise.
I have to point out that John Stuart Mills was not a soldier, rather he was a politician and philosopher.
BurnedOutGeek
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I did some minor pruning in here.
I know @NKD And I assure you all that his post was not to incite a debate about what is the worst thing that man can do. Take the entire post in context and I'm sure you will see that as well.
Are there other atrocities man has shown? Absolutely. Does that pertain to what the OP was talking about? Not a bit.
This thread stemmed from the post about the statues and how a very small percentage of people know real war anymore. Those that have first hand knowledge are passing on at an incredible rate and those past generations knowledge is being lost. Most are taking that knowledge to the grave with them so that their children don't have to "hear" firsthand about what war is all about.
If you haven't, I'd highly recommended looking in to the "honor flights". It has been the best way for my father to cope with what he's been through with 2 tours of hell in Vietnam. He helps get the travel and arrangements together for the vets to see their memorials. Then he is assigned a vet to accompany during the trip. He tells me the same thing I'm about to say. They don't share their experiences very often, but when they're transported back to see those memorials they do open up a bit.
He doesn't tell me much of what he had done those years, and I've never pushed the subject. Even after my short stint in the military, we don't speak much about it to this day. He knows I'm here to listen if he ever wants to talk about anything, but I firmly believe they will be conversations that go unspoken.
I ask this be kept on topic as it's an important one. Those with actual knowledge, please see this as a way to speak with us about anything you'd like to pass on to future generations, and we'll do our best to try and keep this tidy.
Thank you
I know @NKD And I assure you all that his post was not to incite a debate about what is the worst thing that man can do. Take the entire post in context and I'm sure you will see that as well.
Are there other atrocities man has shown? Absolutely. Does that pertain to what the OP was talking about? Not a bit.
This thread stemmed from the post about the statues and how a very small percentage of people know real war anymore. Those that have first hand knowledge are passing on at an incredible rate and those past generations knowledge is being lost. Most are taking that knowledge to the grave with them so that their children don't have to "hear" firsthand about what war is all about.
If you haven't, I'd highly recommended looking in to the "honor flights". It has been the best way for my father to cope with what he's been through with 2 tours of hell in Vietnam. He helps get the travel and arrangements together for the vets to see their memorials. Then he is assigned a vet to accompany during the trip. He tells me the same thing I'm about to say. They don't share their experiences very often, but when they're transported back to see those memorials they do open up a bit.
He doesn't tell me much of what he had done those years, and I've never pushed the subject. Even after my short stint in the military, we don't speak much about it to this day. He knows I'm here to listen if he ever wants to talk about anything, but I firmly believe they will be conversations that go unspoken.
I ask this be kept on topic as it's an important one. Those with actual knowledge, please see this as a way to speak with us about anything you'd like to pass on to future generations, and we'll do our best to try and keep this tidy.
Thank you
Truth. My dad was a slave laborer in Nazi Germany then after the war he saw the communists take over his homeland, Czechoslovakia. He had some stories and residual nightmares even 50 years later
rotorhead
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I haven't been on this forum long but I've done been all over it, searching various threads and topics in my own general interest
I've got to say, this OP (topic) is, in my opinion, the single most important and pertinent one on the board.
The possibilities of our nation's future, as well as our own and our families have never been more unclear as they are now. The future direction of our nation and indeed the world can twist and turn in so many ways, it seems. It also seems that the catalysts for such events have never been so sensitive, too.
Without boring people with my own history in relationship to war and violent upheaval, I'll just defer to the old axiom: "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it."
The OP's clear and concise message should give us all a bit of pause as we contemplate our own futures and to which direction we should set our sails.
I've got to say, this OP (topic) is, in my opinion, the single most important and pertinent one on the board.
The possibilities of our nation's future, as well as our own and our families have never been more unclear as they are now. The future direction of our nation and indeed the world can twist and turn in so many ways, it seems. It also seems that the catalysts for such events have never been so sensitive, too.
Without boring people with my own history in relationship to war and violent upheaval, I'll just defer to the old axiom: "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it."
The OP's clear and concise message should give us all a bit of pause as we contemplate our own futures and to which direction we should set our sails.
Chdamn
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Slightly off topic but something I thought I would share. My father, a Vietnam vet (H34 pilot primarily) who then returned and flew for Air America (Which is why I was born in Thailand) saw more death than anyone should ever see. I know, from records, that he was shot down (or forced down) at least 25 times behind enemy lines. 3 of those were in 1 day and the only reason he didn't go back up (after crossing no man's land 3 times) was because they refused to give him a helicopter.
Besides combat missions he flew medical transport, which usually consisted of picking up loads of rotting corpses that were stacked like cordwood.
His take was that the smell of death was by far the worst thing and what caused most of the terror in men on the battlefield and afterward. He was raised on a farm and they slaughtered all of their own meat (as did a vast portion of the men in previous wars but less so by the time we got to Vietnam).
He said that while it was different with men, that his being accustomed to the smell of death was what made his nightmares much better than most who were not and that he suspected that we would see more issues with veterans of future wars, and that seems to be the case based on the issues that a lot of recent combat vets have.
It's interesting food for thought anyway.
Besides combat missions he flew medical transport, which usually consisted of picking up loads of rotting corpses that were stacked like cordwood.
His take was that the smell of death was by far the worst thing and what caused most of the terror in men on the battlefield and afterward. He was raised on a farm and they slaughtered all of their own meat (as did a vast portion of the men in previous wars but less so by the time we got to Vietnam).
He said that while it was different with men, that his being accustomed to the smell of death was what made his nightmares much better than most who were not and that he suspected that we would see more issues with veterans of future wars, and that seems to be the case based on the issues that a lot of recent combat vets have.
It's interesting food for thought anyway.
The smell of rotting people and the smell of human waste are two distinct smells when comparing them to identical scents from animals. It's either that, or your senses get heightened in some way. Just like the tobacco in cigarettes sold locally in Iraq smelled different than the American tobacco bought in a PX or shipped over, identifying the smell of human feces saved my ass one night. Thinking we were out in a deserted, desolate place, what everyone else was willing to pass off as an animal turd I was adamant it was a fresh pile of human crap. I was right.
Chuckman
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Smells are what I remember the most. Good and bad.
@Chdamn
I had a great uncle who was what they called an ambulance driver in WW2. In short he picked bodies up from the battlefield. This of course was well before I was born. When I knew him, he was always a little off, and as my mother put it squirrelly. She said he wasn't like that until he came home from the war. She still has a lot of the diary entries from his father of life at home during those years and letters from him, including the one where he learned the war was over and he was coming home.
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Never seen your dad before, but I imagine if I look up the word "guts" in the dictionary, his picture will be beside it.
What do you mean by this exactly?
PM'd you.
Hammer12b
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The real problem is when the battle is over and the snowflakes win, the machine will grind them to pieces as well!
No, that's not the problem. I don't give a damn about the remaining snowflakes if they win. The real problem would be that the powers using the snowflakes won and that truth justice and the American way lost.
That in itself is one of the "worse than war" things.
OP
Thanks for getting this back (or trying to) to the original intent. I started this as a response to your post in "Anti-White Violence" thread, post # 157 (#244).
As I said to start with - most of us vets don't talk about it because if you haven't been through it in one form or another then this is just abstract talk. Those who have been there and done that KNOW what I'm talking about. So many are ready to go to war here in the streets and they have NO IDEA what's involved. This is NOT a video game where you can start over after you get killed. It won't be confined to a video screen. Once it starts all hell will break loose and everyone will be involved - not just those in the big cities like Charlottesville or Atlanta or Raleigh or Durham or LA, Detroit, DC, NYC. It will be in the small towns, the suburbs, even out in the country as people flee the cities. We've seen it everywhere around the world where it has already happened. As several have pointed out in this thread the sounds and smells and visual memories never leave you. We aren't trained to forget them either and they keep coming back. I was hoping by starting this discussion that some members who have experienced war could chime in and let others know what they are about to embark on if it goes hot and gets REAL.
@rotorhead Thanks for your comments. We met at the first Range 37 get together years ago when you brought your famous wings, but I know you don't remember me.
@Chdamn Thanks for your comments about your dad. He must have been over there early since the UH34s were phased out with the new Hueys. I flew on some of those UH34s and that is all the ROK Marines would fly on. Also, worked with some guys from AA before it all became outed. I was there in 66-67 and back in 69. Where did your dad fly out of (besides Thailand)?
Hammer12b
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That goes without saying. I was just making the point that these people don't have any idea who they're fighting and protesting for!
....and unfortunately, its what mankind appears to be best at.....making war on his fellow man. I have often thought if alien life has been watching and studying the earth and its inhabitants over the last 10K years what must they surmise about human kind.........the one overriding activity man must enjoy most is war.....because he is always practicing it. Its the great constant of human kind.
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@SSgt75 he was there starting in 64 or 65 I believe. He was with the ugly angels squadron. He flew Huey's too but preferred the h34.
There's actually one (or was at one time) on the Yorktown that he flew in combat.
I'm not sure what bases he was out of but I know there were several. And ship based on occasion as well.
He flew with air America until about 6 months before Saigon fell. They wanted to transfer him along with my mom and 2 siblings. He told them no Saigon is going to fall. They pushed the issue and he resigned.
Technically Thailand was where we lived. He flew out of secret (at that time) bases in Cambodia and Laos.
There's actually one (or was at one time) on the Yorktown that he flew in combat.
I'm not sure what bases he was out of but I know there were several. And ship based on occasion as well.
He flew with air America until about 6 months before Saigon fell. They wanted to transfer him along with my mom and 2 siblings. He told them no Saigon is going to fall. They pushed the issue and he resigned.
Technically Thailand was where we lived. He flew out of secret (at that time) bases in Cambodia and Laos.
Great post Sir.
One thing I do know for certain. America will not exist forever........what abomination takes its place is truly scary to contemplate.
I would be discouraged, but I've read the last chapter in the Book, and I know how it ends, and it's pretty good, at least for the side I'm on. Getting there could be a little rough, though.
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That is one of the things my Dad did in Korea, often during heavy battle. To ease the tension a little bit in this thread, I'll tell briefly, one of the few stories my Dad told me about being over there during the war. One time, he and another guy decided to play a joke on a bunch of his buddies. He climbed into a body bag and had one of his buddies zip him up in it. Then they lured a bunch of guys into this makeshift tent morgue somehow, I can't recall how they did it. After everyone was in there, Dad rose up inside the body bag while screaming and making scary monster sounds. If I recall, Dad said a few of those guys in that tent that day shit their pants when he did that. Lol.
T
The Green Heron
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I have never seen battle. Unfortunately I was not fit to serve through physical limitations.
I don't talk about it much but I have smelled death. It ain't pretty. I would catch myself waking up at night with that smell in my nostrils, the iron tinge of blood, shit and piss. It was all very clinical, but no less real. It changed me forever.
I did not know why I was having to go through it at the time, but I know why now. At the same time that it softened part of me, it hardened me. It steeled my nerves. It woke me up to live today with no fear of tomorrow.
I can't imagine what some of you guys have been through, and I'm not comparing my experiences to yours.
I again thank all of you for your service. If I ever have to stand beside any of you in battle I would gladly.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
I don't talk about it much but I have smelled death. It ain't pretty. I would catch myself waking up at night with that smell in my nostrils, the iron tinge of blood, shit and piss. It was all very clinical, but no less real. It changed me forever.
I did not know why I was having to go through it at the time, but I know why now. At the same time that it softened part of me, it hardened me. It steeled my nerves. It woke me up to live today with no fear of tomorrow.
I can't imagine what some of you guys have been through, and I'm not comparing my experiences to yours.
I again thank all of you for your service. If I ever have to stand beside any of you in battle I would gladly.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
spittinfire
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You, sir are correct. The machine will manipulate its people as it sees fit and at that point those people will no longer be valuable....time to start the fight back the other way.
It's all BS. All of it. Money is all its about anymore. Government doesn't care about anyone, only how they can grease their own palm to make a few bucks for some high priced CEO that gets a kick back down the line.
Media is in on it, it's all fabricated.
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L
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I have ben saying for years "the US is dead, it isn't coming back, what replaces it? Now there's a conversation worth having".
Echoing the works of @Chuckman Being a fireman and a paramedic for many years and currently still one seeing dead folks and burned folks and smelling the distinct smell of blood and rotting corpses it wears on you. I can't imagine what war would be like but death and killing are not what the movies make it to be that's for sure.
To all those that serve in combat and the armed forces thank you for you service!
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Always has been and always will be!
wolfpack65
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Following.
I know nothing of this war you speak of, of death & horrors.
I think I'm glad that I don't, but at the same time, I feel somewhat unprepared for what could be happening in my future.
I hear no stories of the horrific things I know men can do to others, I only hear the funny stories, the ones that are, I'm sure, still sanitized.
Do I want to have to experience any of this?
No.
Do I want to live?
Yes.
So, in my mind, I will have to come to terms with killing someone or be killed.
That's really hard to comprehend, maybe because I'm me, maybe because I'm a gal, or maybe because I've never had to...
I just think if I can get to my home I will be safe.
Maybe?
I've enough "items" to protect myself, I've got a few "reach out and touch you" items.
I don't know.
I know both rotorhead and SSGT75 - good men and good friends, what they say about all this, I listen and absorb.
Hopefully, it's not going to come to a SHTF situation, but it's not looking good at the moment...
Thank you and everyone else for your service.
I know nothing of this war you speak of, of death & horrors.
I think I'm glad that I don't, but at the same time, I feel somewhat unprepared for what could be happening in my future.
I hear no stories of the horrific things I know men can do to others, I only hear the funny stories, the ones that are, I'm sure, still sanitized.
Do I want to have to experience any of this?
No.
Do I want to live?
Yes.
So, in my mind, I will have to come to terms with killing someone or be killed.
That's really hard to comprehend, maybe because I'm me, maybe because I'm a gal, or maybe because I've never had to...
I just think if I can get to my home I will be safe.
Maybe?
I've enough "items" to protect myself, I've got a few "reach out and touch you" items.
I don't know.
I know both rotorhead and SSGT75 - good men and good friends, what they say about all this, I listen and absorb.
Hopefully, it's not going to come to a SHTF situation, but it's not looking good at the moment...
Thank you and everyone else for your service.
I hit "like" when a better button would be "agree with". Everything changes but what I'm seeing is the slow death of what America used to represent, the reason my parents emigrated here instead of anywhere else in Europe, the opportunities to become part of something greater and make a success of themselves. For example, my dad was an orphan in Czechoslovakia and at the age of 18 was sent off as a slave laborer in Nazi Germany. After the war he helped smuggle friends over the border into Germany to escape the Communists. When the police came after him he crossed as well and then worked for US Army Intelligence for a few years. Doing all that it still took him 3 years to get an emigration visa. He came to Chicago and managed to get a full ride to the U of Chicago where he earned a Phd . He then became a professor at UNC and taught for over 30 years. He always answered "American" when asked what his nationality was. My mother escaped and emigrated also, she became a Microbiologist. They met here in the US. These are opportunities they never would have had back in the old country.
Mark Twain's war prayer, it's short and worth reading: https://warprayer.org
If this is the price of restoring freedom and liberty from the corrupted influences we have attempting to rule today, know that it wasn't those desiring said freedom and liberty that set the price.
If this is the price of restoring freedom and liberty from the corrupted influences we have attempting to rule today, know that it wasn't those desiring said freedom and liberty that set the price.
Chdamn
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Mark Twain was one hell of a writer. This was one piece I had not read. Thanks for posting it.
About halfway through I was reminded of the movie "Born on the Fourth of July" for some reason.
I'll have to admit that I haven't read as much of his stuff as I should've. This particular one, we read and analyzed while I was in high school. Obviously it stuck with me and made an impression.
I didn't see that movie, but I do recall the subject matter, especially with respect to VN vets, being an issue back in the 80s, but I was also too young to fully grasp it.