Which caliber is best? This may surprise you

Slip a 40 grain .22 long rifle in someone's eye socket or ear and suddenly the self defense concept takes on a whole new meaning.

In a survival type situation, the 22 rim fire would be my first choice. But, how many people are going to be able to hit somebody in the face, let alone an eye under pressure? Not many...
 
In a survival type situation, the 22 rim fire would be my first choice. But, how many people are going to be able to hit somebody in the face, let alone an eye under pressure? Not many...

May be true, but under pressure, how many can put 10 shots center mass. or pelvic girdle area, with a Ruger 22/45 in about 2 seconds??? That usually takes the fight out of someone quick and I bet most folks on here can do it.
A 22 is the most used gun for poaching deer and other large game so it can put the food on the table. I have a bunch of guns in a bunch of calibers, love my 45s and 5.56s, among others. But in a true SHTF situation, I'll take the 22, just for the ammo carrying capabilities.. I can carry 1000 rounds in my pockets.
 
Considering my “bug out” destination is ThrillHills place, I’m bringing a case of Knob Creek and a Lord of the Rings special edition hard back. That’s all I’ll need to survive until the world rebuilds itself.


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If I could only bring one long gun, it really would be situational dependent. My hand gun is going to be my glock 9mm. Long gun is going to be a either my 10/22 or an AR15. I would really like to bring both, they AR15 would be much better for people defense in the first few weeks, until a bunch of people die off. On that point, I think it would easier to find a good 10/22 and ammo after most people are dead. I really don't believe in Zombi bullshit thing, but a large natural disaster, EMP, or a limited nuclear strike could happen.
 
Just a few humble thoughts:

1. Did I miss the actual number of observations by each caliber? I know he talked about a low incidence of .357 Mag in the data, but I think that would tell you a lot. I thought I saw a lot of 380, 22, 32, 25 ACP data in there.... that tells me a true defensive scenario. (Maybe home, nightstand pistol, conceal ability, ladies purses, etc...) I don't think you can attribute this study for walking and defensive actions past normal 21 Feet.. you can engage a threat a 100 yards with a rifle much better. (in a bug out situation)

2. I think Mythbusters did an episode on water penetration using a .22, 12 Gauge and .50 BMG... I believe that the .22LR had the deepest penetration. The shotgun dissipated quickly and the .50BMG just exploded within 10"? The .22LR just kept plugging deeper. (I think Jacketing vs. Lead Bullet had something to do with it and the dynamics of lead under momentum in a denser environment vs. jacketed bullets impacts this observation.

3. Accuracy is key...22LR to 300 WIN MAG to the eye socket ends all. Shoot what you shoot best and are familiar with working with... but I think we have all come to that conclusion. This debate will go on forever and we will never come to a right answer because there is none.

Overall.. great data collection, good logic and good conclusions based within the framework of the data.
 
That's what a bow and arrow or slingshot is for.
Air rifle.

Considering my “bug out” destination is ThrillHills place, I’m bringing a case of Knob Creek and a Lord of the Rings special edition hard back. That’s all I’ll need to survive until the world rebuilds itself.
Does thrillhill know this? If not, you'll likely not make it past the driveway. ;)
 
The mythbuster shoot into water thing skews away from rifles for penetration because at 10 feet the rifle round explodes. Back up a bit where the rifle round slows below the "destruct on impact" velocity and they will penetrate much farther than others.
 
You ain’t never met ol Bill


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You're right. I was speaking for myself. ;)
When I lived in the city and people would say things like, We'll just come to you house, my response evolved from...

And you'll die in the driveway.
to
You can, but I won't be there.

Now, they can't find my driveway. And if they do, it will some variation of the first.
 
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You're right. I was speaking for myself. ;)
When I lived in the city and people would say things like, We'll just come to you house, my response evolved from...

And you'll die in the driveway.
to
You can, but I won't be there.

Now, they can't find my driveway. And if they do, it will some variation of the first.

I hear ya bud, and totally agree! I know ol Bill and he is the most imposing monster bear of a man you could ever meet. He has a compound that is a survivalist Haven. A wife plucked from heaven above and a family worth killing over.

That said, Bill is also the most giving, kind hearted, and helpful human beings on this side of Glory. You ain’t causing a ruckus and ol Bill will take care of ya, if he knows you.

That’s why I said I’d be hauling in the Knob Creek and Tolkien. Two of his favorite things, aside from guns and fresh critters on the grill. Good bourbon and fantasy lit.


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It may or may not be a safe assumption, but I assume the .22lr effectiveness is mostly pulled from handgun shootings. Probably many of them being small 2" or less barrels even. That's a little different than .22 out of a rifle.

Re: game after SHTF due to too many people and not enough squirrels. I think you overestimate how many people will survive long enough for game to get scarce. I expect once the iPhone battery dies and you can't order take out at will many folks will be out of the Hunger Games fast.

9mm and 5.56 for people and large game. .22lr to feed you. 12 gauge to defend and feed if you aren't moving. They all have a place and purpose.
 
So, according to his data, a .22 LR and a .357 mag have essentially the same number of fatalities for a head or torso shot. Kind of surprising to me. He also thinks the 9mm numbers are low due to the use of ball ammo instead of hollow points. But basically, for normal self defense situations where you just need to stop the threat, any non mouse gun works just fine. For a serious SHTF scenario, rifle or shotgun and body armor.

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So, according to his data, a .22 LR and a .357 mag have essentially the same number of fatalities for a head or torso shot. Kind of surprising to me. He also thinks the 9mm numbers are low due to the use of ball ammo instead of hollow points. But basically, for normal self defense situations where you just need to stop the threat, any non mouse gun works just fine. For a serious SHTF scenario, rifle or shotgun and body armor.

View attachment 70385

Basically, yes. The premise is “we over think the caliber debates”.




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I enjoyed the video, I have to raise an eyebrow on a couple of the points made because on the surface I don’t agree with the premise that SD and SHTF situations are “static”, but as it has been said the data shows actual events with a caliber and weapon type so the points are made based off of those numbers and I get that.

Also the .410 buckshot comment about it being as effective as an actual shotgun imo is way off, I’ve seen many tests done with 2 3/4” and 3” shells and from what I’ve seen they are very limited in range, to the point of being (again in my opinion) a point blank weapon at best, when the guns are loaded with 45LC that’s another story and a much more effective loading.

Prior to getting flight control 12 ga shells my 870 with a fixed choke and standard hunting and Olin 00 and #4 buck I could only keep all 9 pellets on a B26 sized target out to 10 yards and the spread was HUGE, much beyond that and I started having random results but I would always have less than 9 holes with 00 buck and less than 21 with #4.

Once I went to flight control shells I am getting the same pattern at 15 yards I was getting with standard 00 at 7 yards, so within it’s limits I am good with a Shotgun to defend my home, I do keep a few foster slugs in my saddle in case I need to go out further or shoot through cover to get lead on target.

Now for a funny comment my wife made about my SHTF plan, I pointed out what role each weapon will have in a “system failed” type of situation, I went over all the finer details as to why each weapon was perfectly suited for the role I have assigned to it and basically going on and on about how prepared and awesome my plans are.

Once she got tired of hearing me drone on she looks at me and says “that’s great hun, but how are you going to carry all this crap plus ammo and all of the other things we’ll need to survive”........

SHUT UP WOMAN!!!! Do go asking silly questions that pretty much Negate all of my well thought out plans and strategy’s!!!!!

So now I’m looking for a large bug-out Vehicle to carry all my crap lmao.
 
It makes sense that mouse guns would be less effective in a SD situation not only because of size, but because of the lack of defensive ammos (not a big enough market to bother developing them). Market size also contributes to there not being enough incidences to have good data. There was another study that had been posted a while back that concluded larger bullets are more effective, but the people on this board are smart enough to mitigate that. When you throw everything in the stat pile and look at calibers the picture you miss is barrel length and ammo type. That aside, I still carry my .32 mouse gun because I am pretty good with it and it is easy for me to carry. If I die at the hands of someone who has 7 rounds of .32 embedded in their torso...it was just my time.

SHTF is a completely different set of circumstances. Terrain matters. Ammo weight matters. Versatility matters (like being able to use .357 and .38 in the same handgun). And like he stated, the need to overcome armor matters.
 
It makes sense that mouse guns would be less effective in a SD situation not only because of size, but because of the lack of defensive ammos (not a big enough market to bother developing them). Market size also contributes to there not being enough incidences to have good data. There was another study that had been posted a while back that concluded larger bullets are more effective, but the people on this board are smart enough to mitigate that. When you throw everything in the stat pile and look at calibers the picture you miss is barrel length and ammo type. That aside, I still carry my .32 mouse gun because I am pretty good with it and it is easy for me to carry. If I die at the hands of someone who has 7 rounds of .32 embedded in their torso...it was just my time.

SHTF is a completely different set of circumstances. Terrain matters. Ammo weight matters. Versatility matters (like being able to use .357 and .38 in the same handgun). And like he stated, the need to overcome armor matters.


Yeah sometimes your number just comes up, the Trooper Coates shooting comes to mind.

Trooper Coates shot Blackburn 5 times with what I believe was a .357 magnum, Blackburn shot the trooper once or twice with a .22, one of the .22 rounds hit Trooper Coates in the armpit and the round bounced off of the back of his body armor and went back into his torso and pierced his heart, Blackburn lived and Trooper Coates did not.
 
Once she got tired of hearing me drone on she looks at me and says “that’s great hun, but how are you going to carry all this crap plus ammo and all of the other things we’ll need to survive”........

SHUT UP WOMAN!!!! Do go asking silly questions that pretty much Negate all of my well thought out plans and strategy’s!!!!!

So now I’m looking for a large bug-out Vehicle to carry all my crap lmao.
The secret is to go ahead and move to where you are going, so you won't have to tote all your stuff later. ;)

Yeah sometimes your number just comes up, the Trooper Coates shooting comes to mind.

Trooper Coates shot Blackburn 5 times with what I believe was a .357 magnum, Blackburn shot the trooper once or twice with a .22, one of the .22 rounds hit Trooper Coates in the armpit and the round bounced off of the back of his body armor and went back into his torso and pierced his heart, Blackburn lived and Trooper Coates did not.
Coates was using .357 SilverTips (125gr.?) and Blackburn was using .22 Mag in a little Freedom Arms mini revolver. Blackburn was a big man and the rounds expanded but consequently failed to penetrate sufficiently to reach vitals.

An eye opener, for sure.:eek:
 
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The secret is to go ahead and move to where you are going, so you won't have to tote all your stuff later. ;)


Coates was using .357 SilverTips (125gr.?) and Blackburn was using .22 Mag in a little Freedom Arms mini revolver. Blackburn was a big man and the rounds expanded but consequently failed to penetrate sufficiently to reach vitals.

An eye opener, for sure.:eek:

Yeah the information was very spotty for a long time, the SCHP wouldn't release the video or any subsequent information related to what all went down that night but I heard details similar to what you posted.

I was told they carried Winchester 125gr silver tip hollow points and heard a few different theories as to why the shots were not effective on Blackburn, everything from he was on PCP or meth to the rounds didn't penetrate or that the rounds fragmented on impact etc etc, a number of years ago I saw an interview with Blackburn and he described a few of the wounds he received that night.

I found this video where he describes some of his wounds, it isn't the same video I remember seeing but at around the 4:50 mark he talks about where he was hit, the one where he points at his abdomen and says the round passed between his kidney and exited near his spine got my attention because I never knew there was a torso pass through.

WARNING: This video is tough to watch so don't click on it if you don't want to see a Trooper lose a fight for his life.



Sorry for getting off topic here folks, I'll stop the derail.
 
There's a bridge or something or other in SC with Mark Coates name on it. I forget where, but I'm reminded of the story every time I see it.

I don't think it's much of a derail. It's a real deal failure to stop using, one of the best rounds available, demonstrating that caliber isn't everything. And further illustrating the need for more rounds than fewer.

I don't remember hearing of a through and through either.
 
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