Who can make straight what he has made crooked?

[BigWaylon]

Let me clarify a bit. He’s not doing stuff that’s gonna get him in legal trouble at this time. It’s more of just a poor attitude about life. We’re more concerned about him hurting himself than ending up in juvie.

 

[Dale Gribble]

Just curious as to whether or not you believe in an eternal hell? If so, isn't either choice going to result in an eternal existence?

Scripturally I've never seen anything that supported eternal life/existence outside of salvation, and that's why I ask.

Mark 9:43-48

 

[CZfool68]

That’s been briefly discussed around the house.

Or you go the other direction and send him to the quirky, cool uncle. Or at least that’s what happens in the movies. He goes off to feed lions, raise wolverines and comes back a man. Happens all the time right?

 

[CZfool68]

Let me clarify a bit. He’s not doing stuff that’s gonna get him in legal trouble at this time. It’s more of just a poor attitude about life. We’re more concerned about him hurting himself than ending up in juvie.

Sounds like he just needs to find his thing. Perfectly normal. I’m 52 and still looking for mine. Just working some jobs in the meantime.

 

[BigWaylon]

Or you go the other direction and send him to the quirky, cool uncle. Or at least that’s what happens in the movies. He goes off to feed lions, raise wolverines and comes back a man. Happens all the time right?

The only uncle is my brother (3 years younger). And if anybody is going to go live with him, it’s me. Especially after he taunted me over the weekend with the brisket he smoked and decided to turn the whole thing into burnt ends!

 

[VinegarBased]

Praying for wisdom and discernment @BigWaylon, blessings bud.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Military academy? 😬

Meh. Not a fan.

And that's coming from someone who retired from the Navy.

Why am I not a fan?

Because everybody who has ever been in the military knows there are plenty of disaffected servicemembers who buck the system every step of the way or otherwise just simply want out. They're not interested in being "corrected", "fixed", or "learning".

And a lot of people (not saying all) who go that route are really just shoving their problem child out the door to be someone else's responsibility.

Daddy's Little Troublemaker (our oldest daughter, now 21) is a stubborn, mule-headed individual...EXACTLY like her mother. (Not at all like her father....honest.) Those two SERIOUSLY butt heads. The problem is my wife refuses to accept this and adapt her behavior accordingly. So those two have always been at odds with each other and Daddy's Little Troublemaker will dig her heels in and absolutely NOT budge EVER.

And I do mean "EVER". As one example, she absolutely did not want to go to the middle school we sent our kids to (for "reasons") and for three solid years, EVERY SINGLE DAY was absolute Hell with her. There was NO budging on her part.

And, of course, the problem was exacerbated with my wife's attitude toward me, which can be summed up as "go fix your daughter", shortly afterwards followed up with "she's your favorite" any time I did anything which made any progress with her (looked upon as me playing favoritism).

And, of course, Daddy's Little Troublemaker picked up on that because my wife has absolutely NO concept of discussing these problems "behind closed doors" as parents.

DLT: "I'm your favorite, aren't I Daddy?"

ME: "You're my favorite little troublemaker!"

DLT: "That's not fair! I'm your ONLY little troublemaker!"

And yes...my wife brought up military academy. And I know EXACTLY how that would have ended with DLT...in disaster on many levels.


Life is challenging. Life is more challenging when trying to raise children in the best of times. And life is downright painfully challenging with such challenging children.

Be that rock in their life.

 

[two fingers]

1) I went FAR away from everything my parents stood for for about 3 years. I played metal music in bands. I left church (actually did that for more than three years). I yelled obscenities at my mother that she (of course) didn't deserve. (I never tried that with my Vietnam Marine father.) Something snapped in my early 20s. I look back now and wonder what the hell I was so pissed at for those years. I doesn't make sense to me.... and it was ME.

But I chilled out. I apologized profusely to my parents. My whole family is solid. I'm an active member of my church even playing in the praise band.

2) Quite often, when kids get mad and shut parents out, they've been through something they don't want to talk about. It could he anything. The class system beats up kids his age. If you're not a jock, a preppy kid, on of the most popular, etc. you're an outcast. That pisses some kids off. Some just roll with it. Hard to tell why some kids work through all of that with no scars.

Hang in there. Love the kid the best you can. Find ANYTHING to positively reinforce SOMETHING he cares about. Even if he draws on his shoes, just tell him he's a pretty talented artist. Take him fishing even if he doesn't want to go.

And, yes, you're right. It's all in God's hands. So give it to him. Give your son to God. Literally say it.

 

[Timfoilhat]

2) Quite often, when kids get mad and shut parents out, they've been through something they don't want to talk about. It could he anything. The class system beats up kids his age. If you're not a jock, a preppy kid, on of the most popular, etc. you're an outcast. That pisses some kids off. Some just roll with it. Hard to tell why some kids work through all of that with no scars.

QFT

I wasn't popular in grade school or junior high. I went to a Catholic school with the same 60 kids for 8 years. I lived far enough away from them that developing real relationships was impossible. My parents weren't available to take me to extracurricular activities and there was no bussing. I sat out the social stuff until I was 14. I wasn't very pleasant to spend time with as a result.
I chose to go to public school when I was out of junior high. I wanted to have a social life...especially with girls. I'd been forced to share space and time with a small tight group who knew me since I first started going to school. We'd been evaluated and sorted based upon 1st grade logic and those impressions followed us through our time at St. Michael's. I wanted and needed a fresh start with new kids so I could be me, not the kid who outgrew his pants 6 weeks into first grade and wore "floods" the rest of the year.
Getting into public high school helped me tremendously. I had a rough start meeting people, but I figured out quickly that being the kid with chewing gum was a good way to meet people, especially girls, as they felt obligated to talk to you so they could ask if you had a piece for them. I also got on the cross country team. Ran JV as a freshmen, and varsity the next three years. Made a name for myself by myself and as that happened my outlook on life and satisfaction with my place within it improved substantially.

My opinion is the boy needs positive attention from some girls. He'll suddenly find that video games aren't as appealing. His taste in music will expand to include stuff "she" likes. If she happen to be a little churchy he might find Sunday is a little more tolerable.

The trick here is to find him a path to social engagement among kids he doesn't know who are willing to give him a chance. Then let him find his way.

 

[BigWaylon]

My opinion is the boy needs positive attention from some girls. He'll suddenly find that video games aren't as appealing. His taste in music will expand to include stuff "she" likes. If she happen to be a little churchy he might find Sunday is a little more tolerable.

He two best friends are girls. Classmates at his (Christian private) school. He’s not allowed his Xbox during the week, so when he’s not doing homework he’s talking/texting with one or both of them. The three of them often go out together to do things. Sometimes joined by 1-3 other girls (and a parent or two). Probably another half-dozen (there’s less than 30 kids in his grade, to give a little context) that would jump at the chance to be in his inner circle.

He’s a good looking kid. About 6’2” in the 8th grade. Not pimply faced or overweight. None of the stereotypical things middle schoolers pick on each other about. Has run cross country for a couple years, although we let him skip last year...but he’ll start back this summer.

...and all of that just makes it more frustrating. He complains about how horrible his life is, and his school, but nobody on the outside can look at his situation and see any reason for that take on things.

 

[Timfoilhat]

He two best friends are girls. Classmates at his (Christian private) school. He’s not allowed his Xbox during the week, so when he’s not doing homework he’s talking/texting with one or both of them. The three of them often go out together to do things. Sometimes joined by 1-3 other girls (and a parent or two). Probably another half-dozen (there’s less than 30 kids in his grade, to give a little context) that would jump at the chance to be in his inner circle.

He’s a good looking kid. About 6’2” in the 8th grade. Not pimply faced or overweight. None of the stereotypical things middle schoolers pick on each other about. Has run cross country for a couple years, although we let him skip last year...but he’ll start back this summer.

...and all of that just makes it more frustrating. He complains about how horrible his life is, and his school, but nobody on the outside can look at his situation and see any reason for that take on things.

Well you just blew away my impression of the situation. Hmm.

Have you ever spoken with the parents of the kids he hangs out with? Maybe they know, or can find out with some gentle probing of their kids what's up in his life that he won't tell you. I've got some memories about kids I knew who had been felt up by a priest we called "Father Feely". They generally internalized that and became very unhappy basket cases...except the one who became a major bully. Those kids hated their school for sure. I'm reluctant to even mention this because I don't want to project the failures of the school/church upon your situation...but still worth a minute to consider if there's any chance some adult there needs a good look. Why did he want to skip x-country?

I still think the small social network could be a problem. He like his games. Maybe a trip with you and a friend to a comic con or similar will give him some opportunity to reach beyond. I went to Crusader Basketball Camp. We lived away from home for two weeks at Wheaton College in the dorms. I hated basketball. Still, I learned how to play. It was a Christian camp and we had prayer before meals and a daily positive message gathering focused on faith...but that didn't stop 14 year old boys from acting like heathens in the dorms. It was a great time.

 

[BigWaylon]

Why did he want to skip x-country?

Part of the deal with him getting a phone was he had to do something extracurricular. XC is where we landed.

We (wife & I) let him take a break for a year. One of the main issues was what we called “growing pains”. Just giving his body a rest. As an example, here’s a pic of him and two of his classmates taken when he would’ve been in XC last school year. Over 6’ and wears a size 14 shoe now.

 

[Culper]

@BigWaylon

A few thoughts, if I may, on men in general:

They crave responsibility. The more masculine that responsibility is the better. Is there something he could "provide" for the family? Growing a garden, for example, where he grows food for the dinner table.

Voluntary hardship. They want to know they are tough and able to hack it. Working out, manual labor, and outdoor recreation are great ways to have him test himself, strive against something meaningful, and even have some father-son bonding in the process. Plus, he has a lot of energy to burn, and not burning it will make anyone agitated. He may not know it, but he wants callouses on his hands and sweat on his brow. It sharpens and hardens us physically and mentally. Eating half way decent goes hand in hand with physical exertion, and it can affect our energy levels and mood.

Modern society lacks the boy to man initiation. It leaves men frustrated and aimless in many cases. You may could read a book together like "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend it. It is Christian's view on masculinity.

One last thought... The internet and being "plugged in" constantly. A lot of young folks wrap up a lot of their time and identity in their virtual lives and Covid has exacerbated that. Not only is that not good for them, but they are likely exposed to all sorts of damaging material along the way. We all enjoy the real world more anyways, even if we don't know it.

Keep fighting the good fight, brother.

 

[cubrock]

@BigWaylon

A few thoughts, if I may, on men in general:

They crave responsibility. The more masculine that responsibility is the better. Is there something he could "provide" for the family? Growing a garden, for example, where he grows food for the dinner table.

Voluntary hardship. They want to know they are tough and able to hack it. Working out, manual labor, and outdoor recreation are great ways to have him test himself, strive against something meaningful, and even have some father-son bonding in the process. Plus, he has a lot of energy to burn, and not burning it will make anyone agitated. He may not know it, but he wants callouses on his hands and sweat on his brow. It sharpens and hardens us physically and mentally. Eating half way decent goes hand in hand with physical exertion, and it can affect our energy levels and mood.

Modern society lacks the boy to man initiation. It leaves men frustrated and aimless in many cases. You may could read a book together like "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend it. It is Christian's view on masculinity.

One last thought... The internet and being "plugged in" constantly. A lot of young folks wrap up a lot of their time and identity in their virtual lives and Covid has exacerbated that. Not only is that not good for them, but they are likely exposed to all sorts of damaging material along the way. We all enjoy the real world more anyways, even if we don't know it.

Keep fighting the good fight, brother.

You haven't read any John Eldredge books, have you? 😆

Edited to add - DOH! I missed where you reference John Eldredge! LOL. Skimming your post, it was obvious to me where that was going, but I found it odd that you hadn't mentioned him. Well, you had. I just couldn't read. LOL

 

[Culper]

You haven't read any John Eldredge books, have you? 😆

Edited to add - DOH! I missed where you reference John Eldredge! LOL. Skimming your post, it was obvious to me where that was going, but I found it odd that you hadn't mentioned him. Well, you had. I just couldn't read. LOL

Haha, I have and need to read some more.

Other books on men I found interesting:
Iron John by Robert Bly.
The Way of Men by Jack Donovan.

 

[cubrock]

Haha, I have and need to read some more.

Other books on men I found interesting:
Iron John by Robert Bly.
The Way of Men by Jack Donovan.

Those two are on my list, as well.