Running a car without oil...

Trevillian said:
Really? Not even the normal steel inserts/races? Just steel cam on aluminum head? Wow!
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No bearing of any type. Steel cam on aluminum head. Asian (honda/toyota anyway) vehicles have been that way since they started making OHC engines.

I don't recall seeing a single OHC engine that used any type of bearing....foreign or domestic. I'm sure one may exist, but in 20+ years of working in cars, I haven't seen it.
 
TRaGiK said:
I hesitate to say all, but the the vast majority of OHC engines have a steel cam in a aluminum head with no bearings. It's not just toyota, and not just imports.
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My 1978 Horizon with a VW engine also did not use cam bearings. VW sold Chrysler engines until their plant was online.
 
Trevillian said:
Srsly? A hardened steel rod rotating inside just aluminum??

There wouldn't be initial oil pressure at startup, so seems like it would take no time to wear it down??

Not saying your wrong, just saying steel rotating in just aluminum with just oil to protect it seems like a really bad idea.

Got a link?
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This been around for 30+ years....some of the most reliable cars to ever hit the road are equipped with engines sans cam bearings.
 
Even though I'm quite mechanically inclined. I never have messed with cams and such. So I just learned something new today. That's why I love this place lol

Sorry for the hijack OP...

My post on your situation still stands.
 
So for the conclusion...

They replaced the cams on both sides, tore down a good portion of the engine inspecting and replacing seals, and put it back together. Said that they found no evidence of excessive wear, if fact said that it looked great, no metal in the oil, etc. maybe he’s full of crap, who knows. He didn’t want to do anything, I wanted a new engine, we settled on an additional 60k warranty on the engine only conditioned on getting the oil changed every 5k. That’ll get me through what I think of as the high risk period, and may well get me through my daughter’s ownership of it.

Thanks for all the suggestions!
Jim
 
Honest, true story here. Young girl came to our Honda dealership here in Salisbury for an oil change about 15 years ago. She had an early 90 Civic and was heading to Myrtle beach. I was going to lunch, another tech asked me if he could use my lift? After I came back from lunch, there was 4 qts of oil on my bench and asked tech WTF? He ran to the manager and manager called customer to tell her there was no oil in their car. Left message on voice mail and feared the worst. This was on a Friday and she came back in on Monday driving the same car. We pulled the drain plug, no oil. Pulled the oil pan, main and rod bearing caps. No signs of wear. Pulled the cam caps, no signs of wear. How is this possible ? She told us the oil light came on but she wasn't worried, the engine sounded noisy but she just turned the radio up more. 500 plus miles of no oil and all is ok, how is this possible ? I was there, seen it for myself and been in the auto repair business for 40 plus years, Now If seen it all.
 
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Well, it made it about 100 miles, check engine light is on again.

So, if I want a new engine am I really asking for a factory-new never installed engine or something else? Senior master tech dude said that there are no factory new engines available at any price, do we believe him?
 
JimB said:
Well, it made it about 100 miles, check engine light is on again.

So, if I want a new engine am I really asking for a factory-new never installed engine or something else? Senior master tech dude said that there are no factory new engines available at any price, do we believe him?
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A new engine doesn’t guarantee the check engine light doesnt come back on. What is the reason for the light? Code? The check engine light is emission releated. It can be for oil pressure switch voltage, low or high. Misfire for catalyst protection. Never for oil level or metal wear.
 
LeeMajors said:
He lied to you

Toyota 4Runner Engine assembly, partial. Components - 1900031L30 | Toyota, Greenville SC

Engine assembly, partial. Components. Toyota 4Runner. Genuine Toyota Part - 1900031L30 (19000-31L30, 1900031A21). Ships from Toyota, Greenville SC
parts.toyotaofgreenville.com
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Just because there is a part number and price listing, doesnt mean that the actual product is available. I bet when the part number is ordered, the order gets superseded with reman or denied all together
 
Mike Overlay said:
A new engine doesn’t guarantee the check engine light doesnt come back on. What is the reason for the light? Code? The check engine light is emission releated. It can be for oil pressure switch voltage, low or high. Misfire for catalyst protection. Never for oil level or metal wear.
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It’s tough working through my daughter and with a tech that I have difficulty understanding. I’ll ask my daughter to get a dump of everything tomorrow.
 
Mike Overlay said:
Just because there is a part number and price listing, doesnt mean that the actual product is available. I bet when the part number is ordered, the order gets superseded with reman or denied all together
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This tell you anything useful?
5A8CE20D-ED07-4BC5-A5E1-1A242AA43FB3.jpeg
 
Recent check engine light could be something minor. My concern is that they didn’t inspect the other cylinder head or drop the pan to inspect main or rod bearings for scoring. They’re basically giving you the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” treatment without looking for damage that’ll cause problems down the road. But hey the +60k coverage they added will almost certainly cover any ticking timebombs.
 
Mike Overlay said:
Just because there is a part number and price listing, doesnt mean that the actual product is available. I bet when the part number is ordered, the order gets superseded with reman or denied all together
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What I found was the wrong year anyway. Why I deleted my post
 
JimB said:
It’s tough working through my daughter and with a tech that I have difficulty understanding. I’ll ask my daughter to get a dump of everything tomorrow.
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Ask to have a service advisor call you instead of talking to the tech.
 
Mike Overlay said:
A new engine doesn’t guarantee the check engine light doesnt come back on. What is the reason for the light? Code? The check engine light is emission releated.
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The CE light will come on whenever the computer gets an error code. I know the manual (often) says its emissions related and those are common errors, but other things can cause it too. In my car, a grommet fell out of the shifter linkage and while I had it repaired its not 100% and if you’re not careful the computer driven indicator on the dash doesn’t show you what gear your in, though it will drive. Yup, check engine idiot light.

On my wife’s 4Runner the hoses to the transmission cooler / heat sink rotted and it was low on fluid and running hot. Yup, check engine light and once before we knew what the issue was, as the first mechanic diagnosed it differently, the vehicle slowed it down and wouldn’t let you out of a low gear which we learned while towing a load of concrete pavers home.
 
noway2 said:
The CE light will come on whenever the computer gets an error code. I know the manual (often) says its emissions related and those are common errors, but other things can cause it too. In my car, a grommet fell out of the shifter linkage and while I had it repaired its not 100% and if you’re not careful the computer driven indicator on the dash doesn’t show you what gear your in, though it will drive. Yup, check engine idiot light.

On my wife’s 4Runner the hoses to the transmission cooler / heat sink rotted and it was low on fluid and running hot. Yup, check engine light and once before we knew what the issue was, as the first mechanic diagnosed it differently, the vehicle slowed it down and wouldn’t let you out of a low gear which we learned while towing a load of concrete pavers home.
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My post earlier was extremely “simplified”.

This is my bag of tricks for the last 35 years. 5-6 days a week I diagnose and repair automotive drive ability concerns which the majority start with a customer who has a check eng light on.
 
Did you/daughter tell the “advisor” that the engine ran very low to damn near no oil in the engine? Its not noted on the ticket? I understand the advisor “note” are simplified to the tech.

Service advisors suck when relaying information.
 
Low oil isn't an issue as long as it is for a short period, as long as it has oil pressure. By the lack of cooling ability things can get hot quite rapidly under a heavy load. Granted, these engines probably have oil coolers, things are still going to get hotter than normal. Did they ever do a compression/leakdown test? I never saw where they changed the cam on the sheet, maybe I missed it. If any internal components were changed due to premature wear, do keep in mind that all of that metal circulated in the engine, and as an abrasive. Only one head gasket? Why did it fail? Is this a high mileage vehicle? I would do an oil analysis as soon as there are enough miles on that oil change, blackstone labs is considered the standard.
 
If they don't have any new engines on hand I'm sure there are new 4runners available to them. Seriously. Attorney.

Unless they took the engine OUT, pulled the oil pan off and inspected the entire crankshaft then I wouldn't give a single shit what else they checked. At a dealer that would be like $3500 labor and they would have had your car for a couple weeks probably. They didn't inspect shit.

Tell them if they don't replace the engine you want them to give you a new car. Sue them. And have the work done at a different dealership. Have the bill sent over to them.
 
Why is it that instead of doing the right thing, they'll spend four times the effort and ten times the money to get away cheaply? There is a reason I won’t buy Honda vehicles and as my atty put it, my case was the first time he sued Honda. Instead owning up to a mistake, using it as a training opportunity for their staff, and having a happy customer for a loss that is likely insured they’ll just make an angry customer who will spread the word about them.
 
Mike Overlay said:
Did you/daughter tell the “advisor” that the engine ran very low to damn near no oil in the engine? Its not noted on the ticket? I understand the advisor “note” are simplified to the tech.

Service advisors suck when relaying information.
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Yes. And yes, even not being in the business it’s obvious that the advisors tend to suck.

twistedgrain said:
do an oil analysis as soon as there are enough miles on that oil change, blackstone labs
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Sounds like a great idea, did this on the other daughters Jeep and it led to our decision to let it go ASAP.

twistedgrain said:
Did they ever do a compression/leakdown test?
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Not to my knowledge.

Cmdeshon said:
have the work done at a different dealership.
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This decision will be made shortly, it’ll depend on what the current issue is.
 
JimB said:
Yes. And yes, even not being in the business it’s obvious that the advisors tend to suck.


Sounds like a great idea, did this on the other daughters Jeep and it led to our decision to let it go ASAP.


Not to my knowledge.


This decision will be made shortly, it’ll depend on what the current issue is.
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The reason I ask, that receipt doesn’t show quantity of oil or filter being added. And only repair to one bank. Both sides of the engine have the same components. Low to no oil doesn't effect just one side.

That ticket appears to be a manufacturer’s warranty repair not a dealer repair.

If the tech doing the job is unaware of an engine run without oil, he will not know to dig in for that issue, especially if no signs of excessive wear are visible. Wouldnt see anything with out removing a cam at minimum. And cam removal is not necessary for vvti gear replacement.

The variable valve timing gears have been known to have issues without running low on oil in more than just Toyotas
 
Mike Overlay said:
The reason I ask, that receipt doesn’t show quantity of oil or filter being added. And only repair to one bank. Both sides of the engine have the same components. Low to no oil doesn't effect just one side.

That ticket appears to be a manufacturer’s warranty repair not a dealer repair.

If the tech doing the job is unaware of an engine run without oil, he will not know to dig in for that issue, especially if no signs of excessive wear are visible. Wouldnt see anything with out removing a cam at minimum. And cam removal is not necessary for vvti gear replacement.

The variable valve timing gears have been known to have issues without running low on oil in more than just Toyotas
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Well son of a B, with the car under 60k I bet they did the work as if it’s just a drivetrain warranty issue rather than a repair their screw up issue. They get paid under manuf warranty rather than eating it or their insurance.
 
JimB said:
Well son of a B, with the car under 60k I bet they did the work as if it’s just a drivetrain warranty issue rather than a repair their screw up issue. They get paid under manuf warranty rather than eating it or their insurance.
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corporate would probably be interested to learn that ;)
 
Does anyone know about.........what an attourney would charge for this type of a situation?
 
We had something happen. Drain plug came out going down the road. Car with 100,000 miles. So to make customer the same as before we offered a used 90,000 mile engine at no charge. But they wanted a new aka reman engine. So we did and they paid the difference. New engine installed was $1500.00 there extra cost but now have a engine with zero miles versus 100000 miles
 
Clint_lnl said:
We had something happen. Drain plug came out going down the road. Car with 100,000 miles. So to make customer the same as before we offered a used 90,000 mile engine at no charge. But they wanted a new aka reman engine. So we did and they paid the difference. New engine installed was $1500.00 there extra cost but now have a engine with zero miles versus 100000 miles
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Thats a great customer. Realistic expectations they had....
 
New events of the day:
1. service advisor agreed to call me with codes before he left for the day. He calls me from the car on his way home, doesn’t know the codes, but it’s misfiring again, he doesn’t know which side or cylinders. I thanked him, he can’t help it that he’s no too capable, and even if he could there is no point yelling at him. The two service managers are going to talk and get back to me on Monday about what really has been done, ie I understood him to say cams on both sides but it looks like they didn’t do either, just the gears that control the variable timing, why just one head gasket, and what are the notes about the crankshaft and did they tear it down far enough to inspect the crankshaft.

2. Daughter states that she always watches the temp, and it never went up while the car was running without the oil drain plug...I think that’s good.

3. I’m forgetting something, will edit.
 
So today came and went, didn’t hear a thing.
 
Attorney time. They are side stepping and tap dancing to keep anything from sticking to them. They are also doing their best to make money off this problem. A problem they caused.
 
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