I won't carry ball in 9mm. I've used it in the middle east, europe, and africa. Personally shot 17 people with it from both the M11 and the MP5. Seen a few more shot with the same and the m9. Unless it's a cns hit, it takes multiple hits to put them down. Sometimes even multiple bursts from the sub. Once we were issued the MK23 mod 0 though it was a different story. A single or double tap, and tango down.
What ammo would you carry in your .40 cal and why?
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My Oldman always said "shootin a bull in the ass wont kill it boy".
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Why?
Two holes bleed better than one.
No. But when it takes two or even three 3round bursts from submachine gun to the torso to drop a 140 pound Somali at 15feet, a fmj 9mm ain't doing the job. Those 147gr subsonic just don't stop determined aggressors. The 124jhp the mp's had was a different story but were not quite through the suppressor. Plus we weren't supposed to have them.šMy Oldman always said "shootin a bull in the ass wont kill it boy".
Gold dots are proven. The new Federal HST line looks nasty.
9mm FMJs have been killin people since 1908. Electrics and hydraulics. PLACEMENT and Penetration are ALL that matters in handguns. All you are Ever doing is poking holes..if you don't get to Something there are really no results to measure.
There's a difference between killed and stopped. Most handgun rounds have not stayed in anyone I have seen shot with them. But by my own and hundreds of other operators I knew back then and all the ones I know now who actually do shoot people will tell you about the difference in fmj vs hp, especially in 9mm. There's a reason SOCOM is now issuing hp.
I always tell folks ...we must all seek our own salvation...money you earn should be spent for things You want with no explanation to anybody. Again, remember..the platform You choose was set up to run Ball.
Like I said I carry a 10mm if I am going to Carry a semi that day. Delta Elite by Nowlin, 180 gold dot. Never had ball in it.
I never chose 9mm. They issued it until coming to their senses and adopting the HK MK23 .45
I never chose 9mm. They issued it until coming to their senses and adopting the HK MK23 .45
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Come shoot with us on The Battery Oaks. We'd love to have your input.
While I agree, Iād rather take a .65-.7 caliber hole over a .355. Albeit slightly, the chances of hitting a vital organ/CNS with HSTs/Gold Dots and a few other quality modern hollowpoints is improved compared to FMJ while still being able to easily hit vitals even if going through an arm, a car door, etc.
Having another hole out the back isnāt going to do anything to stop a crazed attacker in the few moments in a self-defense situation; only if that hole is in front of a vital will it matter. That hollowpoint in the same place would still be able to hit vitals while also being fairly bigger in diameter, increasing your chances to hit something important. Otherwise, the time theyād take to bleed out would be well after the confrontation is over. (This is just what Iāve learned/read up on, Iām always open to learning something new. Carry what you wanna carry, thatās all that matters, just my 2 cents)
This video with 2 department leads from Federal and CCI/Speer does a great job of explaining it if anyoneās interested, heap of good knowledge. Dudes are the holy grail of information when it comes to ballistics, great info to know regardless
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????????Says Who???????????
I watched the video. I consulted my newest copy of "Cartridges of the World". A great reference book.
Nowhere in the book did I find Lucky Gunner or anyone else listed or named as a holy grail of ballistics.
I did find at least 8 cartridges listed by B&M Rifles & Cartridges.
Both "B" & the "M" are CFF members here and more than likely have the best privately owned and equipped ballistics lab in the eastern US, if not the whole USA. Several CFF members have tested at their lab. We are fortunate to have them here on CFF!
ļ漚ļæ¼
Nowhere in the book did I find Lucky Gunner or anyone else listed or named as a holy grail of ballistics.
I did find at least 8 cartridges listed by B&M Rifles & Cartridges.
Both "B" & the "M" are CFF members here and more than likely have the best privately owned and equipped ballistics lab in the eastern US, if not the whole USA. Several CFF members have tested at their lab. We are fortunate to have them here on CFF!
ļ漚ļæ¼
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Thanks Pard...sometimes folks just get ahead of themselves. A coupla new folks that don't know what they don't know.
Woahhh slow down there, not saying Lucky Gunner, I mean Johann Boden specifically. Letās not take the āIām older so I know more than youā route.
Not sure how to quantify it except him being both the technical lead and head of the law enforcement divisions at both Federal and CCI/Speer for years.... Heās a renowned ballistics expert, Iām surprised heās not more known around here.
From an article:
We, the Writersā Police Academy staff, are extremely pleased to introduce you to Johann Boden. Johann, a law enforcement Specialist-Technical Lead at Federal Premium/Speer Ammunition, is a renowned expert in the terminal ballistics field. He is also a go-to expert resource for law enforcement agencies needing research/problem resolution in weapon/ammunition interface and function issues.
Johann has joined the already extremely impressive lineup of instructors for the 2016 Writersā Police Academy. Heāll be presenting workshops on ballistics.
edit: added source
Personal Defense: Handgun Shooting Tips - Lee Lofland
We, the Writersā Police Academy staff, are extremely pleased to introduce you to Johann Boden. Johann, a law enforcement Specialist-Technical Lead at Federal Premium/Speer Ammunition, is a renowned expert in the terminal ballistics field. He is also a go-to expert resource for law enforcement...
leelofland.com
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How about this route......I know more about this than you do because I have spent 40 years doing it. Not Reading about it. But if you need to Read about it for verification....try the book @Hashknife offered.
ETA...so you don't have to look too far into that huge journal...you'll see my name in the Preface.....
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I just find it odd how the technical lead of the 2 companies who are at the forefront of modern ballistics isnāt considered a go-to.
Then again, this is coming from someone who thinks carrying FMJ is a better choice than a modern hollowpoint š¤
What exactly are your credentials??? Not counting Reading about ballistics.
Where Exactly have You been published. Or even Mentioned in a Premier Ballistics Publication??
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Yeah......I'll be out on the range Shooting for about an hour....You just keep Reading......that should make you Much more skillful.
You might be surprised at who is at the forefront of ballistics... Lotta "name" brand companies/names get their quality independent ballistics lab testing and data aquisition done at B&M.
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Pretty nice climate controlled 50 yard indoor lab with the finest ballistics equipment money can buy....
If you ask them nicely, you might even get invited to run your gear on their equipment.
š
If you ask them nicely, you might even get invited to run your gear on their equipment.
š
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Yet according to you two, this is the ONLY name in ballistics testing and anyone else is a farce... got it.Pretty nice climate controlled 50 yard indoor lab with the finest ballistics equipment money can buy....
If you ask them nicely, you might even get invited to run your gear on their equipment.View attachment 289701View attachment 289702
Not like HSTs/Gold Dots, the bullets he helps design, maintain, and sell are the two most effective handgun rounds for self-defense ballistically-speaking. What a farce!
Shooting makes you as much of a ballistics expert the same way a victim of a school shooting is a firearms expert.
And yet still, youāve not once responded to my actual argument stating modern hollowpoints are more effective than FMJ in a self-defense situation and instead choose to nitpick a phrase, pick at semantics, and dismiss (edit: ignore) the entire argument.
You call yourself knowledgeable on ballistics yet insist on using FMJ for self-defense... right...
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It appears your thought process is as flawed as your reading comprehension. PLEASE, show where I ever said either one was Better than the other? I said.....spend your money for what You want but remember your weapons platform was designed to work on Ball.
If you don't actually know this, you are to be pitied not corrected.
Choose whatever you want just don't try to tell me that Ball is not good for carrying. You just show your ignorance when you spout out misinformation like this.
As to my ability on the range or in my study of ballistics, I'll take a test with you on either....say when....I am here on The Battery Oaks every day.
If you don't actually know this, you are to be pitied not corrected.
Choose whatever you want just don't try to tell me that Ball is not good for carrying. You just show your ignorance when you spout out misinformation like this.
As to my ability on the range or in my study of ballistics, I'll take a test with you on either....say when....I am here on The Battery Oaks every day.
@rms2324 not trying to be in the middle but if @BatteryOaksBilly is the B in B&M cartridges you are arguing with a custom cartridge/ballistics legend! He has forgotten more than most will ever know. Look them up.
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I believe he is also speaking to the idea of ball being the most reliable in regards to feeding and functioning aswell.
Of course a well designed JHP will perform better on target, if it hits where it needs and is intended to do so then a FMJ..... but what if the weapon simply will not run that JHP?
If a weapon wont run Ball, its broken... if it wont run JHP, it is likely because of some sort of incompatibility.
That said, many weapons these days are most assuredly INTENDED to run JHP's..... but I bet they will still run better on ball.
Keeping in mind ive got JHP's loaded in a series 70 Colt 1911, thats been on my hip all day, that I had to work on to feed JHP's AND ball... but it now feeds both perfectly well. But Ball runs better.
Edited: because I hate it when I typo little words š¤
Of course a well designed JHP will perform better on target, if it hits where it needs and is intended to do so then a FMJ..... but what if the weapon simply will not run that JHP?
If a weapon wont run Ball, its broken... if it wont run JHP, it is likely because of some sort of incompatibility.
That said, many weapons these days are most assuredly INTENDED to run JHP's..... but I bet they will still run better on ball.
Keeping in mind ive got JHP's loaded in a series 70 Colt 1911, thats been on my hip all day, that I had to work on to feed JHP's AND ball... but it now feeds both perfectly well. But Ball runs better.
Edited: because I hate it when I typo little words š¤
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Thanks Pard for the vote of confidence, but I'm afraid this fellow is a lost cause.
The perfect take away.....
Billy, I understand the merits behind ball for carry in terms of function/penetration, being cheaper to train with your carry ammo, and just a good olā slug tearing someone without stopping. Youāre a legend in these parts, itās a mouse fighting a lion. It would be ignorant of me to deny you have more experience overall.
All hostility aside (Iām truly wondering), if a modern hollowpoint like an HST or a Gold Dot which youāve tested to run in your gun and it runs fine and you can afford it, would you only be hurting yourself if you didnāt carry it?
From what I understand (Iām still learning), if a hollowpoint can reach that 12-18 inches in gel through the FBI ballistics protocol and effectively pass that test, where a hollowpoint can still reach the parts that matter through certain barriers while also being at least 1.5x the diameter of the original bullet, wouldnāt it be beneficial to carry it?
I havenāt been in an ammo factory but from what Iāve read (š, jokes), defensive ammoās quality control is to a higher standard compared to something like Winchester White Box, factory target ammo. Sealed primers, stuff like that but again I may be wrong. If thereās a better reason to carry good olā cheap FMJ in my gun, I would do it in a heartbeat.
I hope you can see I did my best to choose my words carefully because I am still learning. I want to learn but from what I currently understand, with what we have today, youād be remiss to not carry a solid hollowpoint. I want to hear *YOUR thoughts on this. Again, only if youāve function tested it in your gun and you can afford it, is there a good reason to carry it?
(Only speaking on defensive calibers like 9mm, .40, .45, .357 Sig, .380 and lower are FMJ all the way)
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AND a perfectly coherent presentation. NOW...get over here and visit with us, I'll give you a personal tour of B&M Rifles.
Reading back, I really was a jackass and I truly apologize. Being Palestinian (Christian, relax š), Iāve been taught since I was little to respect my elders and I did not do that. Even worse, I didnāt show respect when it was shown to me.
I was one sided in not adding merits of function, reliability, and price into my first post which is information I know but didnāt add due to not just slowing the F*** down and seeing āhey, maybe this fella has some good knowledgeā
Plus I was just rude.
(After all that and he still invites me to his home. Better man than me)
edit: wut iz speeling
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Sounds to me like you had some good "raisins". Southern Country for younger folks that were raised with their Mama's and Daddy's looking after them.
This is over and I will never think of it again. The invite was and is sincere. The folks on CFF seem to get all things sorted out eventually. This was quicker than usual.
Take care and stay Healthy.....Billy
This is over and I will never think of it again. The invite was and is sincere. The folks on CFF seem to get all things sorted out eventually. This was quicker than usual.
Take care and stay Healthy.....Billy
To the OP ,I Don't want to burst you bubble but in today's market get anything you can. If you shoot someone center mass with a 180 grain fmj 40 S&W they won't know whether its fmj or hollow point Majic bullet. The only reason I carry hollow point ammo in my edc is that my dept furnished me with it
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Thank you Billy, I really appreciate your kindness. Hopefully I can pay it back someday
Like Billy said, good olā round nose projectiles have been killing 2 and 4 legged creatures for hundreds of years. They will be no less deadly if you hit someone in the right place.
I think it was John from Active Self Protection said āitās not how big the hole is, itās where you put the hole.ā Having that barely fraction of an inch with a hollowpoint, while advantageous, isnāt any more lethal
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As someone who has been shooting with Billy for a couple years now, and have personally been to B&M Rifles a couple times, I will attest, the knowledge of cartridges and bullet design information they have is mind boggling. Now, as been said, if your gun shoots XYZ hollow's, and runs them with no issues, rock on. I think a lot of the thinking behind the ball argument is....is that it's been proven that hollow point's don't always expand, you never really know what they're gonna do until you dig them out of a person and find out. With ball, you know exactly what you'll get, every time. I also know, that what we go through here in the US is not the same as the sandbox, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most confrontation here will be close in, from let's say 5 yards to bad breath distance, or at least that's been the case when I've been involved. Now, with that, and the way we train, I would feel completely comfy with standard ball, as I'm not planning on standing flat footed and hoping a couple rounds drops them on the spot. My on Mom had to shoot a guy that kicked in here door about 5 years ago, and pegged him in the collar bone with a 22 LR from a revolver. Went in right under his collar bone, and settled in his right lung. Homey ran back out the door and collapsed about 10 feet out in the yard. Again, maybe 7 feet away from where he entered to where she was standing. And she told me, "I knew when I pulled the trigger I hit him, and then I moved in case he kept charging". Yep, Mom got off the X. Rock whatever makes you and your chosen platform happy, train as often as you can, and get down to @BatteryOaksBilly place and have some fun. You will not meet better people.
You are making the false assumption from your reading and video that ballistics "gel" is the the best representative medium for testing ballistics on live tissue (self defense).
It is not.
You ( and your quoted sources ) may not know what you don't know.
Gel is used because it is cheap and easy, but not because it is best in class for ballistics testing representative of live tissue.
Go see B&M for yourself and you will be at least 51% more knowledgeable than you are now, and at least 51% more knowledgeable than those who don't/haven't.
pee wee
'Cause we're them old boys raised on shotguns
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Kind of reminds me of the scene in the Shooter where he goes to TN to find out what he can about the paper patched bullet. Searching out the knowledge.
The hypocrisy of you stating I assume gel is the best test medium when I never once said that is astounding. Please quote me if I did otherwise
*To add: I already apologized, I will learn from my mistakes, but I will not take responsibility for something I simply did not say.
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