A 12 second argument for why the world should support Ukraine

myst173 said:
Since the other thread is spammed constantly every day with pro-russian propaganda and "we don't need to be involved in Russia's business" arguments, I decided to post a new thread with just a single video. This is why the rest of the civilized world is supporting Ukraine, this is why EVERY country that has ever broken away from Russia has no desire to return to their "friendship". It's a very simple and black and white choice, would you rather help the man in the hole, or the people outside the hole? Make your choice, live with it, but be prepared to be judged by your choice, in this life and the next.

www.pravda.com.ua

Russian soldiers execute Ukrainian PoW after he says âGlory to Ukraineâ

Russian invaders have shot an unarmed Ukrainian prisoner of war after he said âGlory to Ukraineâ.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua
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Can you please cite the pro-russian propaganda on here?
And I dont think you can say that someone is pro-Russia just because they dont want to get wrapped up in this war.
 
HMP said:
Can you please cite the pro-russian propaganda on here?
And I dont think you can say that someone is pro-Russia just because they dont want to get wrapped up in this war.
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That’s all he’s saying. “If your opinion isn’t the same as mine, you’re pro Putin”

I bet his vax card doesn’t have any punch slots left.

And I guarantee the response to his thread isn’t what he was expecting. Or maybe it was, either way, we’re all Putin apologists to him for not wanting to fund this war. Piss on that train of thought and anyone with it.
 
myst173 said:
Since the other thread is spammed constantly every day with pro-russian propaganda and "we don't need to be involved in Russia's business" arguments, I decided to post a new thread with just a single video. This is why the rest of the civilized world is supporting Ukraine, this is why EVERY country that has ever broken away from Russia has no desire to return to their "friendship". It's a very simple and black and white choice, would you rather help the man in the hole, or the people outside the hole? Make your choice, live with it, but be prepared to be judged by your choice, in this life and the next.

www.pravda.com.ua

Russian soldiers execute Ukrainian PoW after he says âGlory to Ukraineâ

Russian invaders have shot an unarmed Ukrainian prisoner of war after he said âGlory to Ukraineâ.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua
Click to expand...

NKD said:
First, this isn't an "argument".
The idea you are "with us or against us" is the same wag-the-dog bullshit we have heard many times before.
Simple "black and white" choice? Only if you are simple minded.

Honestly, what shocks me is the same rhetoric, the same tired rah rah dogma, can get recycled every ten years, and dummies will continue to fall for it over an over and think everyone that doesn't is stupid.

If you feel so strongly about it, by all means start a go-fund-me for your trip. I've got 50$ to add to your plane ticket fund. If you won't put your ass where your mouth is, don't expect anybody else to.
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Just wanted to chime in to say I'll match your $50.
 
Burt Gummer said:
That’s all he’s saying. “If your opinion isn’t the same as mine, you’re pro Putin”

I bet his vax card doesn’t have any punch slots left.

And I guarantee the response to his thread isn’t what he was expecting. Or maybe it was, either way, we’re all Putin apologists to him for not wanting to fund this war. Piss on that train of thought and anyone with it.
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It's just like the trump cult loyalists out there. If you arent wearing your trump pajamas and waving your trump pompom's, you're one of them DAGGUM LIBTARDS. Everything is binary now.
 
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A 10 second argument for not supporting Ukraine.

Stop sending my effing money and our effing people to fight wars on foreign soil that have nothing to do with this country.

It’s none of our effing business.

Set up a gofundme for all the idiots that want to send their money and a recruitment drive for all of you morons that want to go die on foreign soil fighting for one corrupt ass nation against another.

I notice nobody was lining up to defend Rwanda. Wanna guess why? Because nobody told you to.
 
This is a proxy war. We get to simultaneously look like the good guys while draining (and assessing) the strength of an adversary. We can afford to do this a lot longer than Russia can, and if Putin doesn’t deliver victory then we may get regime change from within, which will at least temporarily destabilize our adversary. If he does manage victory it turns into a guerilla war and they get to sink lives and money into it ala Afghanistan. We’ll help fund that too. It’s not a morality issue it’s one of draining Russia of military resources. Granted proxy wars haven’t always turned out great for us, but as long as China sits this one out (mostly) this is the game plan.
 
Cataphract said:
This is a proxy war. We get to simultaneously look like the good guys while draining (and assessing) the strength of an adversary. We can afford to do this a lot longer than Russia can, and if Putin doesn’t deliver victory then we may get regime change from within, which will at least temporarily destabilize our adversary. If he does manage victory it turns into a guerilla war and they get to sink lives and money into it ala Afghanistan. We’ll help fund that too. It’s not a morality issue it’s one of draining Russia of military resources. Granted proxy wars haven’t always turned out great for us, but as long as China sits this one out (mostly) this is the game plan.
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Ah. 4D chess. Trust the plan.
 
Cataphract said:
This is a proxy war. We get to simultaneously look like the good guys while draining (and assessing) the strength of an adversary. We can afford to do this a lot longer than Russia can, and if Putin doesn’t deliver victory then we may get regime change from within, which will at least temporarily destabilize our adversary. If he does manage victory it turns into a guerilla war and they get to sink lives and money into it ala Afghanistan. We’ll help fund that too. It’s not a morality issue it’s one of draining Russia of military resources. Granted proxy wars haven’t always turned out great for us, but as long as China sits this one out (mostly) this is the game plan.
Click to expand...

The "game plan" is to make and launder untold billions for the military industrial complex, after taking it from your pockets.
 
Chdamn said:
Ah. 4D chess. Trust the plan.
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It’s not really about trusting anything. It’s a pretty basic tactic. We send money and equipment and we don’t expend American lives. If it goes bad, we bail because we don’t want to fight a nuclear armed adversary head on. If it goes as it has been then Russia is no longer as strong an adversary as they were and potentially won’t be able to exert influence in the same way as they once were. Either way it’s a way to weaken an opponent with minimal risk to our forces.
 
Chdamn said:
A 10 second argument for not supporting Ukraine.

Stop sending my effing money and our effing people to fight wars on foreign soil that have nothing to do with this country.

It’s none of our effing business.

Set up a gofundme for all the idiots that want to send their money and a recruitment drive for all of you morons that want to go die on foreign soil fighting for one corrupt ass nation against another.

I notice nobody was lining up to defend Rwanda. Wanna guess why? Because nobody told you to.
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This, but unironically. Two guys I don't care for at all fighting in a bar, and I'm expected to jump in to save one of them?

Screenshot_20230306-215159_1.png
 
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Cataphract said:
It’s not really about trusting anything. It’s a pretty basic tactic. We send money and equipment and we don’t expend American lives. If it goes bad, we bail because we don’t want to fight a nuclear armed adversary head on. If it goes as it has been then Russia is no longer as strong an adversary as they were and potentially won’t be able to exert influence in the same way as they once were. Either way it’s a way to weaken an opponent with minimal risk to our forces.
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Hahahahaha.
 
Cataphract said:
It’s not really about trusting anything. It’s a pretty basic tactic. We send money and equipment and we don’t expend American lives. If it goes bad, we bail because we don’t want to fight a nuclear armed adversary head on. If it goes as it has been then Russia is no longer as strong an adversary as they were and potentially won’t be able to exert influence in the same way as they once were. Either way it’s a way to weaken an opponent with minimal risk to our forces.
Click to expand...

KSkgtet.png
 
myst173 said:
Since the other thread is spammed constantly every day with pro-russian propaganda and "we don't need to be involved in Russia's business" arguments, I decided to post a new thread with just a single video. This is why the rest of the civilized world is supporting Ukraine, this is why EVERY country that has ever broken away from Russia has no desire to return to their "friendship". It's a very simple and black and white choice, would you rather help the man in the hole, or the people outside the hole? Make your choice, live with it, but be prepared to be judged by your choice, in this life and the next.

www.pravda.com.ua

Russian soldiers execute Ukrainian PoW after he says âGlory to Ukraineâ

Russian invaders have shot an unarmed Ukrainian prisoner of war after he said âGlory to Ukraineâ.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua
Click to expand...

This is how I imagine you while reading your post.

49ykr1.png
 
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The same turds up in D.C. telling you it is our responsibility to provide support to Ukraine are the same friggon turds that propped up Zelenskyy, steal you blind/take your money (by force), divert it to the Ukraine to be “cleaned” and then have it funneled back into their bank accounts. They do not give a damn about you, me or even Ukraine. They are a selfish lot and their loyalty lies only with the person they look at in the mirror…that’s it.

And the media here is running interference for them.

ETA: I’m no fan of Putin, at all, but I am 100% convinced he cares more about Russia than Mr. Potato Head cares about America.
 
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Cataphract said:
This is a proxy war. We get to simultaneously look like the good guys while draining (and assessing) the strength of an adversary. We can afford to do this a lot longer than Russia can, and if Putin doesn’t deliver victory then we may get regime change from within, which will at least temporarily destabilize our adversary. If he does manage victory it turns into a guerilla war and they get to sink lives and money into it ala Afghanistan. We’ll help fund that too. It’s not a morality issue it’s one of draining Russia of military resources. Granted proxy wars haven’t always turned out great for us, but as long as China sits this one out (mostly) this is the game plan.
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Thanks for sharing "the game plan" since I didn't get a copy. Draining Russia is a marvelous talking point.

Russia is the largest country on the planet, it has unparalleled amounts of natural resources, and its economy is still largely based on making things. OTOH, our country is broke, heavily in debt to the Chinese and Arabs, and doesn't make many tangible things. Russia can sustain itself by selling resources and products to neighboring countries like China and India, while our country is captive to wackos in our own government who won't even use the resources we have to keep the lights on and the motors running. That really sounds like the makings of a game plan to drain Russia.
 
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Burt Gummer said:
That’s all he’s saying. “If your opinion isn’t the same as mine, you’re pro Putin”

I bet his vax card doesn’t have any punch slots left.

And I guarantee the response to his thread isn’t what he was expecting. Or maybe it was, either way, we’re all Putin apologists to him for not wanting to fund this war. Piss on that train of thought and anyone with it.
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Shame on you assuming pronouns again
 
Cataphract said:
This is a proxy war. We get to simultaneously look like the good guys while draining (and assessing) the strength of an adversary. We can afford to do this a lot longer than Russia can….
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That BRRRRRR of a printing press running non-stop is what the death of a country sounds like.
 
BASIL said:
war is a racket. that's all I got to say.
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Reminds me of the song War Pigs by Black Sabbath. War is arguably the most money making racket ever seen by mankind.
Chdamn said:
It’s none of our effing business.
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The world would be a such a great place if everyone just minded their own effing business! And the US has a bad history about sticking our nose in other people’s business! But hey those sticking their nose in others business don’t have to pay for war in cash or blood, so what do they care.
 
Cataphract said:
We can afford to do this a lot longer than Russia can, and if Putin doesn’t deliver victory then we may get regime change from within, which will at least temporarily destabilize our adversary.
Click to expand...
Couple big issues with this strategy. First, like you said, it’s temporary. With the amount of natural resources it will not take them long to recover.

Second, if Russia does lose and there is a regime change. The new regime will come back stronger and will do something stupid, because they will have something to prove to their people and the world. They aren't wired like the playground bully that gets whooped once and then leaves you alone. They continue coming back over and over again.
 
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gc70 said:
Ukraine has had a civil war going on in the Donbass since 2014.

So sometimes it's okay to intervene to help dissatisfied ethnic groups dissolve a country to achieve self-determination, but at other times it's not okay.

What differentiates okay from not okay? Is it which way -western or otherwise- the government leans? Is it the religion of the minorities? Is it the sponsor countries of the government or the minorities?
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God, I love this place!

What we're really delving into here is the subject of ethics and morality. The problem is that there are layers upon layers of ethics and morality that philosophers (and authors) have been discussing and writing about for as long as mankind has been capable of thinking beyond their immediate biological needs. It seems to me that there are degrees to what's ethical or moral, and mankind is exceedingly adept at presenting the perspective on this in ways which support one particular viewpoint or another.

Our own country was founded in war with the assistance of outside countries. And before that, the various colonies across the New World were founded by outside countries invading and warring with the peoples who were already there.

And during each and every instance, there were untold numbers of people who suffered and died either directly or indirectly because of it. There were those who continued to pay the price down the road, even decades or generations afterwards.

No nation, no group of people, are ever likely to be involved in such matters for purely altruistic reasons. In fact, the larger the groups/organizations involved, the less likely that will be the case, to the point where it's statistically impossible to be so.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation. They may have their own internal problems, which may in fact lead to outbreaks of violence and government collapse in a worse case scenario. An outside agency stepping up to invade and impose their will in Ukraine isn't going to happen for strict altruism. It's going to happen based on what the invading nation things is best for THEMSELVES as an outcome. Not what's best for Ukraine.

And every other nation responding to this invasion will LIKEWISE be acting for what's in THEIR own best interests.

Politicians and people supporting this will, of course, phrase and present their actions otherwise. Including the United States. How many times, for example, have we heard about how the United States is the world's champion for democracy around the globe? And how many times has that been a purely altruistic move as opposed to a strategic move intended to support our own interests? And that's whether we were asked or not asked to "interfere". Whether we were obligated by some treaty or not.
 
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RetiredUSNChief said:
And every other nation responding to this invasion will LIKEWISE be acting for what's in THEIR own best interests.
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But is it in the best interest of the citizens of those nations or the arms manufacturers?
As I referenced before in this thread the book/pamphlet “war is a Racket” written in the 1930’s by USMC General Butler gives good insight into this conflict. Like today the media attempted to discredit him as a “nut“ but with TWO medals of honor around his neck he received at least some attention.

Fun Bonus Fact: Camp Butler in NC was named for him
 
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Cataphract said:
It’s not really about trusting anything. It’s a pretty basic tactic. We send money and equipment and we don’t expend American lives. If it goes bad, we bail because we don’t want to fight a nuclear armed adversary head on. If it goes as it has been then Russia is no longer as strong an adversary as they were and potentially won’t be able to exert influence in the same way as they once were. Either way it’s a way to weaken an opponent with minimal risk to our forces.
Click to expand...

Ain’t that all moral and upright? Kill as many Ukrainians as possible so you might just weaken Russia. All those supporting that should burn in hell. And not just because it is immoral. But because it is foolish and a failure.
 
Early on, something didn't feel right. I don't know all the details to express an informed opinion on the war. I hate it that so many innocents appear to be dying. But, after a while, the news feeds started sounding like war propaganda. A little too slick and we'll produced. Like reports about Oceania in Orwell's 1984. Yes, people may be dying, but, I feel like we're being played. And I believe it's not just about Ukraine, but something much larger...


Just my perspective...
 
CZfool68 said:
Ain’t that all moral and upright? Kill as many Ukrainians as possible so you might just weaken Russia. All those supporting that should burn in hell. And not just because it is immoral. But because it is foolish and a failure.
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Well this got friendly quickly. I made an observation on what seems to be happening. We are materially supporting one side of a conflict in order to weaken an adversary. Pretty bog standard US foreign policy for the last couple decades, and I thought a fairly benign observation as I’m not sure what else you’d call this. I made no claims as to this being the right or wrong way to do it, simply that this seemed to be the game plan.
I’m going to nope out of this one before I actually express a dissenting opinion rather than just an observation and someone offers to come kill my dog.
 
meanwhile, i have my own issues to deal with and only me, myself, the wifey and her 4 different personalities are gonna handle them.

if someone wants to go do their thing over seas, by all means,

just leave, my family, tax dollars and myself outta it
 
Cataphract said:
Well this got friendly quickly. I made an observation on what seems to be happening. We are materially supporting one side of a conflict in order to weaken an adversary. Pretty bog standard US foreign policy for the last couple decades, and I thought a fairly benign observation as I’m not sure what else you’d call this. I made no claims as to this being the right or wrong way to do it, simply that this seemed to be the game plan.
I’m going to nope out of this one before I actually express a dissenting opinion rather than just an observation and someone offers to come kill my dog.
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I’m not saying it’s your fault. You might be entirely correct. I am saying our Gov’t are not the good guys any longer. If they ever were.

I would not harm a dog unless he is threatening to harm me. Your doggy is probably pretty safe.
 
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