Serious question about 2nd Amendment

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My question is: Is there anyone that should be permanently barred from owning a firearm?

Let's say that James Holmes is the model prisoner and gets paroled (I know he is not eligible) or pardoned by a future president.

iu


Should he be eligible to have his second amendment rights restored?

Or this convicted serial killer that has been up for parole once already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Wayne_Henley

If he got paroled should he be able to own a gun?

I am really not just trolling everyone, I am trying to understand the where/if people have lines.

If I say they shouldn't have their rights restored am I a FUDD?

What would your limits be?

Non-violent felons?
 
I think what I've lined up with the most is people who aren't safe to have a gun aren't safe to be in society. To me it applies well in this case. .... IF your saying I'd have to decide because he WAS being patrolled, then yes I think his right to a firearm should never be given back.


Btw sorry for ignorance but what exactly is a FUDD? (Without saying me) hahaha
 
If he got paroled then all of his rights should be restored. End of story.

Not restoring them will not prevent him from getting a gun. All it does is establish that it isn’t a right it is a privledge.

He should get the death penalty for what he did and the problem would be solvered.
 
I think what I've lined up with the most is people who aren't safe to have a gun aren't safe to be in society. To me it applies well in this case. .... IF your saying I'd have to decide because he WAS being patrolled, then yes I think his right to a firearm should never be given back.


Btw sorry for ignorance but what exactly is a FUDD? (Without saying me) hahaha

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fudd

Slang term for a "casual" gun owner; eg; a person who typically only owns guns for hunting or shotgun sports and does not truly believe in the true premise of the second amendment. These people also generally treat owners/users of so called "non sporting" firearms like handguns or semiautomatic rifles with unwarranted scorn or contempt.
"See sonny, all those pistols in that cabinet... all thems is good for is killin people." -Example of ignorant comment from a fudd at a local gun shop. See also: Zumbo.
 
If I say they shouldn't have their rights restored am I a FUDD?
What it makes you I don't have a word for, but it's not good.

On one hand, it makes you an elitist tyrant(sorry, you asked), who is fine for having freedoms sometimes for people he likes, but not at other times for people he doesn't. As
@Chdamn said, when you pay your debt to society, it is paid, that's it. On the other hand, it also makes you incredibly naive, as the whole reason parole exists in the first place is as a way to give some rights partially back to people, on a probationary standing. If you understand freedom like we are talking, then you must also understand that a lot of people on parole or set free, shouldn't be, they should never have been let out in the first place.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either let fewer people out, and give back full rights, or let tons of people out like now, and don't give them full freedom. You're talking about mixing those two, without understanding they are two mutually exclusive things.
 
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Note if the prisoner is released on parole, the prisoner has not fully paid their debit to society. If you have served out your full maximum sentence, well that’s a different story. I personally don’t believe in parole. Make your bed, lay in it. Serve 100% of the sentence. Debit paid. Rights restored. Violent, capital type offenses = fast lane to the chair.
 
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I'm definitely enjoying the responses and see some good points.

but I am going to troll some now ( I must have cabin fever) but some of what I'm hearing is that it's ok choose who lives or dies but not who can own a gun?
 
My question is: Is there anyone that should be permanently barred from owning a firearm?

Let's say that James Holmes is the model prisoner and gets paroled (I know he is not eligible) or pardoned by a future president.

iu


Should he be eligible to have his second amendment rights restored?

Or this convicted serial killer that has been up for parole once already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Wayne_Henley

If he got paroled should he be able to own a gun?

I am really not just trolling everyone, I am trying to understand the where/if people have lines.

If I say they shouldn't have their rights restored am I a FUDD?

What would your limits be?

Non-violent felons?

I’m pretty sure people like him wouldn’t live long enough to be able to behave the chance to make a purchase, be legal or illegal.

Look at folks that get thrown in prison on drug charges... you think that is gonna stop them when they get out from getting more ?

So with that said, I agree with @Chdamn. But I will say, felon or not, no right should be taken away before or after their correctional term
 
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I'm definitely enjoying the responses and see some good points.

but I am going to troll some now ( I must have cabin fever) but some of what I'm hearing is that it's ok choose who lives or dies but not who can own a gun?

The choice was theirs all along. I'm just advocating for the appropriate consequences to their actions.
 
I'm definitely enjoying the responses and see some good points.

but I am going to troll some now ( I must have cabin fever) but some of what I'm hearing is that it's ok choose who lives or dies but not who can own a gun?

@Love2shoot nailed it with "people who aren't safe to have a gun aren't safe to be in society." Quit agonizing over gun ownership. The dead (executed) don't need guns, gun possession is incompatible with being incarcerated, and everybody else should have whatever guns they want.

Of course, the above sorta' assumes that our concepts of crime and punishment are massively revised.
 
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Better question, does the gov have the authority to bar anyone from owning a firearm?
It says "shall not be infringed", not "shall not be infringed unless a court convicts you of a felony"

They have usurped that authority but it is unconstitutional of course.
 
Btw sorry for ignorance but what exactly is a FUDD? (Without saying me) hahaha
images

And just in case you're too young to know...
The reference comes from Elmer Fudd. Who was always chasing Bugs Bunny. (And if you are too young to know, then I feel old. )
Not to be confused with an Elmer. Which is another thing entirely.

images
 
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In general, I believe the following about rights in general:

Rights may only be removed by Due Process. They may not be arbitrarily or legislatively removed.

Upon paying one's dues for whatever criminal act in which one's rights were originally abridged/removed, one's rights should be fully restored.

If a person is so "evil" or "dangerous" that they cannot be allowed to exercise their RKBA, then why are they being released back into society in the first place? Anyone so truly evil and/or dangerous will not be stopped by an administrative denial of a right.

Does a convicted felon not have the right to defend his own life? Does a convicted felon not have the right to fight tyranny? Does a convicted felon not have the right to put meat on his table through hunting?

Apply this to all the other rights, as well.
 
I’m in the either you’re safe to be out in society, in which case you have all rights, or your not. I’m also of the opinion that thinks prison is over used and many that are there should be executed instead, and quite frankly I believe that swift execution would be more humane too.

I reject on its face the idea of govco and politicians turning rights into privileges.
 
the main thing I'm still struggling with is how someone can "forfeit" their right to live (which I would think is the ultimate inalienable right) but can't forfeit the RKBA.

I definitely have tended to agree with the if you've done your time, you should be free and I've also never felt opposed to the death penalty.

just really thinking about it, especially when I think about living and the RKBA as rights, it makes me realize some hypocrisy I have in my views about rights.
 
the main thing I'm still struggling with is how someone can "forfeit" their right to live (which I would think is the ultimate inalienable right) but can't forfeit the RKBA.

I definitely have tended to agree with the if you've done your time, you should be free and I've also never felt opposed to the death penalty.

just really thinking about it, especially when I think about living and the RKBA as rights, it makes me realize some hypocrisy I have in my views about rights.
If someone committed a heinous crime, say murder or rape, society has to determine the punishment for that. It is up to society as a whole to decide if the penalty is life in prison or death, as of right now, society has determined it can be either, but that also these highly dangerous individuals can be let out after a long, but certainly survivable amount of time.

RKBA is a natural right, it is a right that people always had, and the government is acknowledging. You are talking about people who through violence took away the natural rights of others to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If you are out, all your natural rights should come back. If you want a different punishment for the incredibly dangerous, I suggest lobbying your congressman.
 
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If someone committed a heinous crime, say murder or rape, society has to determine the punishment for that. It is up to society as a whole to decide if the penalty is life in prison or death, as of right now, society has determined it can be either, but that also these highly dangerous individuals can be let out after a long, but certainly survivable amount of time.

RKBA is a natural right, it is a right that people always had, and the government is acknowledging. You are talking about people who through violence took away the natural rights of others to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If you are out, all your natural rights should come back. If you want a different punishment for the incredibly dangerous, I suggest lobbying your congressman.

but if our natural right to bear arms exists to protect lives, isn't the right to life at least equally important?

why is it ok for society to take one right but not another?
 
but if our natural right to bear arms exists to protect lives, isn't the right to life at least equally important?

why is it ok for society to take one right but not another?
Your actions caused a harm to individuals on society, and society as a whole. Something has to be done to mitigate that harm. In other words, a "debt to society" is owed. Society determines if that debt is some kumbaya's and dancing, or a quick drop and a sudden stop. I have no attachment to the death penalty yay or nay.

After the debt is paid, the slate is clear.
 
the main thing I'm still struggling with is how someone can "forfeit" their right to live (which I would think is the ultimate inalienable right) but can't forfeit the RKBA.

I definitely have tended to agree with the if you've done your time, you should be free and I've also never felt opposed to the death penalty.

just really thinking about it, especially when I think about living and the RKBA as rights, it makes me realize some hypocrisy I have in my views about rights.

but if our natural right to bear arms exists to protect lives, isn't the right to life at least equally important?

why is it ok for society to take one right but not another?

These are serious questions. And the answers are tough, and rightfully so.

The ultimate denial of rights is the taking of one's life. This is why the State has a heavy burden of proof placed upon it and why the cards are stacked against the State in the legal system. The State has to fight every step of the way in order to take an individual's life.

Which is why so many get upset about the way our appeals system works. It generally takes YEARS, if not decades, for the State to carry out an execution after a conviction.

What many people fail to understand is that in our government, it is the PEOPLE which do the actual killing. We're a Constitutional Republic, not a dictatorship (though we'll often have fierce "debates" over this on CFF). If the State convicts a person and carries out an execution, it's the PEOPLE who convicted the person and the PEOPLE who executed him/her.

This disconnect is fostered, in my opinion, by the systematic sequestration of executions from the public eye over the decades since this nation was founded. Public executions should be the norm...a reminder that not only do one's own personal actions have consequences, but the acts of our government likewise have personal consequences for the actions of the citizens who enabled the government to execute one of their own.

This is true citizenship in action in a representative government.
 
Your actions caused a harm to individuals on society, and society as a whole. Something has to be done to mitigate that harm. In other words, a "debt to society" is owed. Society determines if that debt is some kumbaya's and dancing, or a quick drop and a sudden stop. I have no attachment to the death penalty yay or nay.

After the debt is paid, the slate is clear.

We have to be careful with the "society as the victim" argument. Society is not a victim of anything; other individuals are. Society as the victim is the argument used in most collectivist views on government.

but if our natural right to bear arms exists to protect lives, isn't the right to life at least equally important?

why is it ok for society to take one right but not another?

I would argue the Right to Life enjoys a status of primus inter pares; that is, First among equals. Life is the fount from which all other Rights flow, and without Life, all other Rights are somewhat superfluous.

Now, if one believes that all have the Right to Life, then logically one must also have the Right to protect that Life and the lives of others from being immorally taken. To deny any free person that Right IS to deny them the Right to Life.

With regards to the State and the death penalty, I'm somewhat conflicted in light of cases in which the innocent are convicted (there are some men who've spent decades in jail for rapes they didn't commit) or, as we just witnessed with the second attempt in the Bundy trial, gross and willfull prosecutorial misconduct in which the State made conscious decisions to withhold evidence to force a conviction and got caught.

What if they hadn't? The State no longer has an interesting in Justice....but they are running a terribly lucrative business in criminal prosecution.

Is that who I want meting out Death to the Citizenry?

Certainly there are crimes where the guilty party can be judged as to great a danger to others, and if it meets that threshold, can be morally executed for their crimes.

But that should be the sentence of the jury, not something "sought" by the DA's office.
 
Great conversation. I agree with having rights restored once you have served your sentence. What about non-criminals who have lost their ability to live independently due to mental issues? Should they lose this particular right?
 
Great conversation. I agree with having rights restored once you have served your sentence. What about non-criminals who have lost their ability to live independently due to mental issues? Should they lose this particular right?

Have they violated the Rights of anyone else?
 
Great conversation. I agree with having rights restored once you have served your sentence. What about non-criminals who have lost their ability to live independently due to mental issues? Should they lose this particular right?

IMO, if they live with a caretaker then it is their responsibility to decide if they are competent enough to own or shoot a gun. It isn’t the gov’ts job.
 
Have they violated the Rights of anyone else?

Let’s say no, but they have noticeable impairment of judgement.

Full disclosure: this became an issue for me towards the end of my dad’s life when he was trying new pain medications.
 
Let’s say no, but they have noticeable impairment of judgement.

Full disclosure: this became an issue for me towards the end of my dad’s life when he was trying new pain medications.

I am not a fan of the notion of pre-crime, that a Citizen should be denied their Rights because of what they might do or could be capable of doing.

From my point of view, it's the role of the family to make those sorts of determinations, and not the State.
 
I think that the 2nd amendment rights is just a piece of the puzzle as far as restoring rights to persons convicted of a felony.

Jeff Manza, PhD, Professor of Sociology and Political Science, and Associate Director and Faculty Fellow at the Institute for Policy Research at Northwestern University, and Christopher Uggen, PhD, Distinguished McKnight Professor of Sociology at the University of Minnesota, stated in their 2006 book Locked Out: Felon Disenfranchisement and American Democracy:

"Ex-offenders face legal restrictions on employment, they lack access to public social benefits and public housing, they are ineligible for many educational benefits, and they may lost parental rights. In many states, their criminal history is a matter of public record, readily searchable for anyone who wants to know.

Research on the lives of ex-offenders has consistently demonstrated they have difficulty finding jobs and a safe place to live, reconnecting with their friends and families, and making their way in a world where they are branded, often for life, by the stigma of a criminal conviction."

So you have someone who say at age 20, is convicted of felony possession of marijuana with intent to distribute 2 ounces of marijuana.
Which for reference is about this much.
09-two-ounces.nocrop.w536.h2147483647.jpg

They serve close to 5 years in prison and have fines probably close to $10,000
http://norml.org/laws/item/north-carolina-penalties-2

They serve their time and however still owe substantial amount towards the fines, however are limited in employment, housing, parental rights, serving in the military, voting, holding elected office, travel, firearms, etc.

This person is now 25, can't find a job or housing because they are a felon, so say they live to the age of 85, the next 60 years they carry the burdon of what they have done at age 20 over a baggie of plant material. They have served their time, paid their debts, however are still stigmatized for their past transgressions.

My opinion is that if you have served your time, you have paid your dues and shouldn't be required to bear that burden and have all associated rights and privileges restored to you.

While my example is of someone who's convicted of a non violent felony vs someone who commits a violent felony, I think it depends on if you view the prison system as reformative or not, I do not. That's a different discussion all together.

We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; ...

I see no asterisk next to it that says *"Unless convicted of a felony".

And depending on who you ask the definition of happiness in 1776 mostly centered around prosperity, thriving and well being. Seems those all suffer with a felony.

As far as a family member's involvement in if Grandpa should keep his Colt or Cadillac, I've seen it go both ways, they are over involved and you have one side wanting to put Grandpa in the home for various reasons, sometimes for good reason, or nefarious. Families should be the first to intervene before the government, often the family has more right to take away the keys or lock up Grandpa's guns than a government agency.
 
baggie of plant material

Bahahahahaha. Hilarious! Almost like getting in trouble for carrying something over an invisible line on a piece of paper.


All that being said, I'm too ignorant to get caught up in all the details and caveats. Which is why I am a single issue voter. It's too easy for someone/group to decide something is illegal. And since I can't have my cake and eat it too, I believe that there shouldn't be anything/person/law etc. that keeps me from having my guns. Who knows, next week I may be a felon for some arbitrary reason.... like unprocessed /natural plant material.
 
A convicted felon cannot legally possess a firearm, so it doesn’t matter if they’ve been paroled.
That's missing the entire point of this discussion...and the whole reason the question was asked.
 
Great conversation. I agree with having rights restored once you have served your sentence. What about non-criminals who have lost their ability to live independently due to mental issues? Should they lose this particular right?

The question is "Does the State have a right to get involved in this without due process for some violation?"

This is a matter where family and non-State entities should be involved. Collectively, we've abrogated too much of this responsibility to the State.
 
The question is "Does the State have a right to get involved in this without due process for some violation?"

This is a matter where family and non-State entities should be involved. Collectively, we've abrogated too much of this responsibility to the State.

Short answer, both my opinion and from experience...No.

https://www.ncdhhs.gov/assistance/guardianship/guardianship-alternatives-to-guardianship

It's a long process, not a quick solution. The solution is for the family to intervene FIRST, then proceed down that route.
You can take Grandma's key's to the Buick LeSabre alot faster than the "process" allows, take Crazy Uncle Ed's pistol or whatever the case may be, unfortunately most families want someone else to do the dirty work so their conscious is clear and they stay in the will.

If you depend on others to solve your problems, you can not be upset with their decision based on your decision of indecision.
 
Thanks for the feedback! This was also my attitude and in fact how I handled it. However, I was a little bit taken aback when the people at the hospital offered me assistance with working through the process of having his firearms confiscated from him.
 
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The reality is this will have to start, if it starts, with separating violent felons from non violent felons. I think a discussion of the popular idea of felonizing everything the make it more illegalar would be good too. It's pretty much a dumb idea. Once the non violent felon issues get worked out you could get down to the more difficult issue of violent felons.

Personally, if the left will not budge on their ideas of rehabilitation and doing away with capital punishment entirely I'm not terribly interested in giving them back to violent felons. If the left does not want to execute them or lock them up for life, I don't really feel compelled to let someone with a history of violence have a gun.

This was not an issue at the time of the founding. Convicted felons did not survive the rest of the week without a reprieve from a pastor and a tattoo to show for their felony so they could be tracked. Two time losers where hung even quicker.
 
Shall Not be Infringed does not have any caveats, If the locals feel he should be released in to society then all rights are restored. They are rights and not privileges. It is not a weapons issue it is a failure of weak men to do what is write and put down the rabid dogs that have no place in society.
 
How do you reconcile this hang-em-high approach to violent crime with a Christian upbringing that commands us not to kill? I’m not even a very good Christian and I can’t figure that one out without rationalizing.
 
How do you reconcile this hang-em-high approach to violent crime with a Christian upbringing that commands us not to kill? I’m not even a very good Christian and I can’t figure that one out without rationalizing.
Here are some references to look up, I myself need to review them but it is a start.
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm

Also there is a difference in a person killing and the government that is in charge by God to punish the wicked. Also self-defense is covered too, book "A time to kill" is a good one.
 
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