15 yard headshot with carry gun

I preach shooting NRA precision pistol bullseye matches for incidents like the Texas church shooting. A line of say twenty shooters going at it at the same time induces stress and the target black is near a human's head size can easily be hit by a master class shooter 5 times in a ten second volley. No one has the ability starting out but there is a measured progression for those that are truely willing to improve their abilities. Those that lack the desire can always be found at the spray and pray events gaming a target that teaches very little about handling stress.
 
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Yes. I practiced a few days ago and I'm fixing to go out in a little bit here and practice some more. On the timer today. What's a reasonable time for a concealed draw to 4" circle zone shot at 15 yards? I think I will start out by trying for 3 seconds and make adjustments up or down from there depending on how it goes.
 
I did the shoot test for my Chp the other night and tried one just for a laugh. I missed, the instructor told me again to use more finger in the trigger then tried it, hit right where I did. Sights were way off. Lol
 
Some of the idpa a stages that are freestyle I'll shoot the whole stage headshot only including the long Targets.
 
Nope. Unless that's the only target, then I'm out of options. Feel free to practice what you want. But acting like taking a shot, at distance, on the smallest available target, that's the most mobile, and actually the most protected target on the body; I think I'll go COM unless there's a reason not to. Lots of people and animals survive bad head shots too.

Do I shoot my carry gun at 25 yards? When I get too. Are the targets head size? Roughly. Am I going to convince myself it's a good idea under stress? No. I prefer to keep things simpler than that.

My guess is that if he had put one center of mass that guy goes down too. Maybe he does not finish it there, but anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. And it's a good bet someone gets on the guy before he recovers to fire that shotgun again.
 
If you practice it to see if you can do it, to mimic the physiological impact to you, first do 25 fast push-ups or a dozen burpees, then do it.
 
6" plates are a regular part of my rare practice sessions, headboxes slightly less regular. Carry guns don't often make the cut. I don't train specifically for SD.
 
This actually makes me want to update my RX. It's been 2 years. About time.
 
chiefjason said:
Nope. Unless that's the only target, then I'm out of options. Feel free to practice what you want. But acting like taking a shot, at distance, on the smallest available target, that's the most mobile, and actually the most protected target on the body; I think I'll go COM unless there's a reason not to. Lots of people and animals survive bad head shots too.

Do I shoot my carry gun at 25 yards? When I get too. Are the targets head size? Roughly. Am I going to convince myself it's a good idea under stress? No. I prefer to keep things simpler than that.

My guess is that if he had put one center of mass that guy goes down too. Maybe he does not finish it there, but anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. And it's a good bet someone gets on the guy before he recovers to fire that shotgun again.
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My interest is skill verification, or equipment verification.

Personally I'm going with thrice over twice...but thats just the H20 AK47 IDPA target getting in my head.
 
Starkherz199 said:
My interest is skill verification, or equipment verification.
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I agree. Ordinarily I wouldn't take a headshot in a situation like this, any more than ordinarily I'd shoot a deer in the head. But the thing I notice about shooting with precision is that you don't develop the skill by shooting B27 targets at 5 yards and congratulating yourself for keeping everything--well, almost everything--inside the 7 ring. You develop it by practicing precision shooting.

Can you replicate your best range performance under the stress of a gunfight? No. But if I know I can consistently hit a headshot at 15 yards at the range in 3 seconds or so, with my actual carry gear, I can feel pretty confident about my ability to hit a center mass shot (or two or three) at 15 yards in 3 seconds or so.

Most of my practice today was at 10 yards. I find that jump from 7 yards to 10 yards is huge for me. At 10 yards, I'm finding myself pulling shots low when my splits hit .55. I am not sure why. Part of it is, I believe, the vision problem I mentioned in another thread. But maybe that's just a convenient excuse. Anyway, apart from shooting the Wizard before my practice sessions, I haven't shot anything less than 10 yards in at least a couple of months. But I had what turned out to be 4 extra rounds today once I finished my practice, so I loaded them up and shot an abbreviated bill drill at the standard 7 yards. Splits were right at a quarter second, all shots in the 8" circle. Last time I shot a bill drill I was doing more like .33 splits. It's like magic--practice at 10 yards and your 7 yard and less shooting improves, too! :) For me, it's the same idea with practicing 15 yard head shots.
 
Practiced 10 yards drawing on the clock this morning, then 15 yards to check my groups on the head shot with this fairly new to me blaster. Just drifted the rear sight a smidge to the right, which I usually have to do with Glunks.
 
We don't shoot COM because it's Good...we shoot it because it's Big...Clint Smith
In all my shooting and seeing people shot, I have Never seen Anybody not STOP what they were doing when shot in the face. KH
I shoot Every day. I practice COM and head shots from no further than 15 yards. Odds are that's where I'll need those skills.
We must all seek our own salvation.....Jim Higginbotham
 
chiefjason said:
Nope. Unless that's the only target, then I'm out of options. Feel free to practice what you want. But acting like taking a shot, at distance, on the smallest available target, that's the most mobile, and actually the most protected target on the body; I think I'll go COM unless there's a reason not to. Lots of people and animals survive bad head shots too.

Do I shoot my carry gun at 25 yards? When I get too. Are the targets head size? Roughly. Am I going to convince myself it's a good idea under stress? No. I prefer to keep things simpler than that.

My guess is that if he had put one center of mass that guy goes down too. Maybe he does not finish it there, but anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. And it's a good bet someone gets on the guy before he recovers to fire that shotgun again.
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These are great points. After events like the one that inspired this thread people rightfully start to acess their own skill level, choice of gun and training. All of that is good but I personally am not changing what I do. I see too many people starting to change their training , equipment and though process to mimic the results in TX. I have watched the video multiple times. I have learned from it but I am not going to drastically change what I am doing because the likely hood of me having to take that shot or choosing to take that shot are slim to none.

I am not on a church security detail. I am not tasked to or am I bound to protect others besides my loved ones. I do not have a duty to run towards the bullets. That does not mean I won't but that is not why I carry a gun. In that situation If I am being 100% honest I do not think I would have been able to take him out with a single head shot. Maybe if he let me try it 5 times I would get him 1 out of the 5. But if I went center of mass and continued to fire I believe I would have scored COM hits and closed the gap and helped to end the situation more effectively than "me" trying a head shot. I am not going to change what I have been doing which is shoot for COM just because it worked in this one in a million instance. When I train to shoot COM I am looking to keep all of my shots inside the black on a B8. On a good day I am shooting everything in an area the size of a grapfruit. I shoot everything from 5 yard to 15 yards.

I will often shoot KHs "The Test" at 15 yards. I don't always pass but I am always close and more often than not I am throwing 1 or 2 shots because I am rushing or I am clean but don't make the time. All of my shots would be hits COM. If I was going for a head shot those 1 or 2 I throw will not land as intended. So my take away is that I am better off shooting COM and keep shooting COM until I run out of bullets or the attacker is no longer able to attack. If I have closed the gap to 5 to 7 yards a head shot becomes more doable but I still harder than COM.

I think it is great people are thinking about what happened and applying it to how they train but I am not going to put myself in a mindset where I have to train to make that shot. I personally do not think I would have gone for the head in that instance because I am realalistic about my skills. They are avg at best and DA pull shot to the head at 15 yards on the move having watched 2 people already get shot already is most likely not a shot I am going to make no matter how hard I train. COM maybe but someone is going to have to get me a new set of underwear aferwards. :oops:
 
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fieldgrade said:
Practiced 10 yards drawing on the clock this morning, then 15 yards to check my groups on the head shot with this fairly new to me blaster. Just drifted the rear sight a smidge to the right, which I usually have to do with Glunks.
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Last year I decided not to shoot anything closer than 15 yards for several months when practicing with my competition gun. 10 yards became almost burner targets.
It was something I will carry over with my carry guns in practice this year.
 
Starkherz199 said:
Last year I decided not to shoot anything closer than 15 yards for several months when practicing with my competition gun. 10 yards became almost burner targets.
It was something I will carry over with my carry guns in practice this year.
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I shot a lot at 20 yards during range sessions last year. The targets don’t lie at that distance.
 
I don’t know this for a fact but I suspect he took the head shot not because he preferred it but because there were a bunch of people between him and the target trying to duck down.

This is not unrealistic in an active shooter situation and a good reason to practice head shots. Go for COM if you can but take any shot you can make if you need to (knowing what is around and behind your target). The perp might be partially hidden behind cover or a bystander.
 
JimP42 said:
I don’t know this for a fact but I suspect he took the head shot not because he preferred it but because there were a bunch of people between him and the target trying to duck down.

This is not unrealistic in an active shooter situation and a good reason to practice head shots. Go for COM if you can but take any shot you can make if you need to (knowing what is around and behind your target). The perp might be partially hidden behind cover or a bystander.
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If the BG is using someone as cover I am not taking a head shot. YMMV
 
If you look closely at the video, a head shot might have been all he had. Here is a snip as close as I could get to the flash from the Sig, and this is just after that. It's hard to tell if the woman in gray with black hair is in his line of sight, but she and others are close enough to it that he might not have had much choice.
Texas Church Shooting Head Shot.jpg
 
dmarbell said:
If you look closely at the video, a head shot might have been all he had. Here is a snip as close as I could get to the flash from the Sig, and this is just after that. It's hard to tell if the woman in gray with black hair is in his line of sight, but she and others are close enough to it that he might not have had much choice.
View attachment 179806
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It is hard to tell from the angle but IIRC he is behind the last set of pews. The lady sitting covering her ears and the lady standing are possibly effecting his choice.
 
Here's something else I find remarkable about the shot Jack made. This is a snip of the instant after the first shotgun blast. That dark spot inside the red area is a cloud from the drywall (or whatever material is there) from the shotgun pellets that either missed the first victim or somehow got through to the wall. That's how close the shot was toward Jack's position. He actually flinched a little right after this moment I captured, and still had the presence of mind to stand his ground and make the shot.

Texas Church Shooting Head Shot 2.jpg
 
I'm thinking in that situation ( for me) any center of bastad hit is good. Sure elegance is desired- but I'd rather lay hits on than miss perfect any day.
 
wvsig said:
If the BG is using someone as cover I am not taking a head shot. YMMV
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Now to really mess with you guys.

I told myself when I started carrying, no one leaves with a family member. Would I take out a BG with a random hostage with a head shot? No, very unlikely. Would I take the shot if he was trying to leave with one of my family? Yes. No one leaves with my family. Nothing good happens to anyone that is taken. I'll take my chances and live with the consequences. And that could range from absolute success, to unmitigated disaster. But you are not leaving with a child or spouse of mine. Somebody is getting shot. Right here. Right now. It will be settled somehow.
 
First three rounds on the Wizard drill is at the head at 3, 5 and 7 yds. Then 2 rds in chest at 10yds. I always practice putting my rounds on target at any range I engage from. That may be from arms distance to 300m with a handgun (COM).


CD
 
Sure, I do. Not because I am expected to do headshots, if, God forbid, I ever would have to use the gun, but because if you are able consistently hit head, then center of mass would be an easy target. The head also helps because there is no "well, it is ok anyway shot". A miss is a miss. :)

Typically I do three exercises:
1) draw + headshot at 15 yards on timer.
2) A mile run or 100 sit-ups and 5o push-ups and then 15 yards headshot while pulse is high.
3) 10 yards headshots the target on the swinger (head is the fastest moving part).

And yep, I do it both my competition G17 and my carry G43. G43 tends to be 15-20% slower.

When I dry-firing with laser ammo at home I use a properly scaled target on the wall.
 
No gunfire required...........

hpnbwandlurc_bdf33bc9-ed44-4f71-81c7-44b427a7a13a_720x.jpg
 
Amp Mangum said:
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One of issues I have with videos like this is that 99% of the shooters watching that video lack the skills to shoot at 25 and 50 yards. When I go to the range I see lots of people shooting at 25+ yards and if they get a shot into a B27 type target they are happy. I am not critizing their shooting I am stating the facts. I think it is a good idea to move back to where your groups open up so that you can see where the weakness are and work on improving them. For most people that is moving from 3 to 5 yards or 5 to 10 yards. 99% of the time I see people shooting handguns from distances like 50 yards most of the shots are misses and the one hit is a celebratory moment which ends the shooting at that distance like mission was accomplished. LOL Again I am not talking about everyone. I know there are guys on this board like you who can what Mike Pannone is doing in that video but Mike Pannone is an elite shooter in my book. Shooters at Mikes level and at your level @Amp Mangum can take a gun shoot it at 50 yards and know if it is the indian or the arrow because the Indian is pretty damn good.

Most people lack the skill to know if it is the gun or their shooting that produces poor results after 15 yards. I can tell you that 9 times out of 10 its the Indian not the arrow but you know what I mean. I do agree 100% that it is good to stretch the target out a bit so that you know what you are and are not capable of. Having a personal guage of what kind of shot you can make with slow deliberate sighting on a square range is important. That is my major take away from the video. I think what he glosses over is that too many shooters are having trouble getting similar results at much shorter distances.

One of the ranges I shoot at has clay pigeons to help people sight in their rifles at 50+ yards. People throw them onto the berm and it helps them see where they are hitting and get them on paper faster. I always grab a couple and at the end of my range session throw some out onto the berm and shoot them with a pistol. Depending on the day it will take me a 5 to 20 shots to bust that clay. Most of my misses are hitting within 3-4" inches of the clay sometimes moving but not busting it. The clay is 4.25" so it gives me a good feel for my accuracy abilities at that range with a particular gun. It is immediate visual feedback that I can use to adjust what I am doing. It is similar to steel but easier to see the misses vs hear the hits. All sorts of training at all sorts of distances is great but it needs context and it need purpose. I do not shoot clays at 50+ yards to that one day I can take a 50 yard shot at a BG. I do it so I can be better at taking a shot in a self defense situation that odds tell me is going to be short ugly and brutish.

PS I do not consider myself a great shot. I am above average on my best day. Lots of people on here will smoke me on the range and most likely in a real life or death situation so take my thoughts with a teaspon of salt.
 
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chiefjason said:
Now to really mess with you guys.

I told myself when I started carrying, no one leaves with a family member. Would I take out a BG with a random hostage with a head shot? No, very unlikely. Would I take the shot if he was trying to leave with one of my family? Yes. No one leaves with my family. Nothing good happens to anyone that is taken. I'll take my chances and live with the consequences. And that could range from absolute success, to unmitigated disaster. But you are not leaving with a child or spouse of mine. Somebody is getting shot. Right here. Right now. It will be settled somehow.
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Huge dilemma. For me not one that I can answer universally. There are too many variables and consequences that would be difficult to live with either way.

CZfool68 said:
I’m thinking if you can hit a head shot at distance then hitting center of mass should be easy. So why not practice the head shot? You can always make your decision if and when the bad time comes.
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The head is typically moving at a much more unpredictable way. It is changing level, speed and position much fast and more drastically than COM. Unless you are training to take head shots on a moving head you are not really training to take head shots on a live human being. You are changing your point of aim on a static target. You are building muslce memory for that transition which is good but it does not have that one to one relation ship you are describing. IMHO YMMV
 
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