30-30 reloading questions

Cluck Norris

Cluck Norris

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I am in the market for a farm gun and have numbered it down to a couple options and one of them is 3030. I have never reloaded 3030 and I am not asking for anybody’s recipe but the people who have reloaded it, specifically the upper east of the scale, what type of velocity it ranges were you ableTo get. Were you able to increase the performance of the project down at all?
 
I can tell you 30/30 brass is weak. Even some book max loads will break brass. My 30/30 single shot is faster with factory and handloads than my 336 and 94. Factory loads pretty will hit ammo makers published numbers (my lever guns don't), guessing due to the 22" barrel on the single shot.
 
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From my Win 94, most loads I worked up gave me about 2150 to 2000fps. However, the loads I worked up with Leverevolution powder produced about 200fps more velocity. The most accurate loads, however, were with Varget powder at about 2200fps. These were all 150gn projectiles.
 
Hodgdon's LeverEvolution powder was designed for the 30-30 and produces the most velocity that I have seen, but it is relatively temperature sensitive. That, when combined with Hornady's pointed Flex-Tip bullets, which have the highest BC for tube-magazine-safe bullets will give max effective range for typical levergun use. Some guns love that stuff, others don't.
If you single load with a normal levergun, have single shot or a box magazine gun, you can use sleeker normal pointed bullets.

The case itself is not terribly robust, so that is a limitation too.
 
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As you have all heard @Michael458 say...The Bullet Does ALL The Lifting.....he had a 100 Grain Raptor goin at 3,000 FPS in a 16 inch barrel Winchester Legendary Lawman.....Then, when he switched to another rifle ....Bad JuJu....this is why we have so much money tied up in Ballistic equipment. I think he ended up with about 2,800 FPS from the 16 inch guns.
 
Cluck Norris said:
Temp sensitive for storage or performance?
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For performance. LeverEvolution is a blend of ball powders and ball powers traditionally are more sensitive to their temperature at the time of firing*. Faster combustion, higher muzzle velocity and higher chamber pressure in the summer and slower combustion, lower muzzle velocity and lower pressure in winter. I am honestly not certain how big the difference is for the 30-30.
Certain extruded powders tend to be a little less temperature sensitive. Some, like Hodgdon's Extreme line and IMR's Enduron line were specifically designed for minimal temperature sensitivity.

Some people who want extreme accuracy or who tend to push the upper pressure limit on reloads will use a different amount of powder depending on the temperature at which the ammo will be used. In other words, a summer loading and a winter loading.


*There have recently been some developments in more temperature-stable ball powders, like Winchester's StaBALL powders, but that is only for specific ball powders.
 
My handloads are very similar to the winchester 150gr SP 'silver box' factory ammo for 30-30. Its a good, accurate load, has plenty of deer-killing power, and its been around for over 120 years. I don't see a need to fix something that ain't broke.

30-30 brass is soft, and already has a short life as reloadable brass. Pushing the pressures up to the max is only going to cut it shorter. You will see cracked necks a plenty doing that.

If you really need more power out of your 30-30, it might make more sense to pick up a Ruger American or Savage Axis in 308 instead. The rifle will be cheaper than any 30-30 currently available, and the ammo is about the same cost off the shelf, or reloaded.
 
The reason for the
Sharps40 said:
If your asking about upping performance the 3030. Strongly suggest you need to drop it as an option and get a higher performance caliber to begin with.
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no, it’s mainly what are reloaded getting out of it performance wise, I’m my limited experience of reloading (223/308/9mm/357mag/6.5grendal) the books tend to air on the side of caution.
I reload mostly as a hobby and not near as much as I use to, so I was curious what people are doing with it.
 
I just make up a load in the top end of the recipes that groups nice at 100 yds. Site it in at 100 yds and hunt to 150 yds. That's about max for 99% of us shooters ability wise and a good humane limit to place on ourselves for the animals sake. Have fun.

Velocity will be unknown, but we never really know shot to shot anyway so, less worries, more focus on shooting
 
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The 30-30 was doing what it needed to do LONG before many of the "newer, high performance" calibers were even considered. And the Lever action rifle is an excellent design to use as a fast handling, all around good rifle for many chores.

Performance should be judged by accuracy first. Especially over a variety of conditions. Heat, cold, etc. You can have the fastest,, but maybe not as accurate as it can be. And performance is a subjective discussion by itself.
Hunting performance? Paper punching performance? Tin can plinking performance? Training performance?

None of it matters if you can't hit accurately.

As for "weak" brass,, the 30-30 isn't as bad as some,, (say 38-40) nor as good as some, (say 30-06 mil-surp,). I've converted a bunch of it to 7x30 waters,,, after it had been loaded more than once,, and shot it several times as 7x30 waters with only occasional splits etc. No more or no less than other calibers. But my stuff was loaded for accuracy & not stressed with "hotter" loads.

Find a good bullet that'll do what you seek,, then load it for accuracy & don't look back.

BTW; if you think you need high velocity performance,, consider how many handgun hunters,, using revolvers, cast bullets, and loads around 1000 to 1400 fps have taken truly BIG game animals with one shot kills. If you want to read about such stuff, may I suggest you read about a friend of mine. American Handgunner writer,, Jeff "Tank" Hoover just published a 2-part story about an african safari that Dick Thompson took recently. He only used handguns,, cast bullets, and took several big animals including a Cape Buff. Do a search & read about it. Dick tells the story quite well, and Tank allows him to share it his way.

Performance is more than velocity.
 
contender said:
The 30-30 was doing what it needed to do LONG before many of the "newer, high performance" calibers were even considered. And the Lever action rifle is an excellent design to use as a fast handling, all around good rifle for many chores.

None of it matters if you can't hit accurately.
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Truth!! If you can't do it to 150 yards with a 30/30 you aren't going to do it with anything else. Exception of elk or big bears, then inside 100 yards I'd still use it with the right ammo.
 
Although the 30-30 has traditionally been 150-yard cartridge, the advent of LeverEvolution ammo in 2006 extended that significantly. According to Hornady, their 160-grain FTX ammo has over 1000ft-lbs energy remaining at 300 yards (from a 24" barrel). That is pretty much what traditional 30-30 loads do at less than 200 yards. In fact, at Hornady's introduction of the LeverEvolution ammo, they set up targets and ballistic gel at 300 yards so the press could shoot at that distance to verify the claims.

Although the Hornady load has roughly half the drop of some traditional loads at 300 yards, it is still significant. Using the classic sight setting of 3" high at 100yards, the drop is over a foot. With a 24" barrel, that sight setting is actually a 200 yard zero. Shots much beyond 200 yards would require knowing the range fairly precisely to get proper elevation, but from a known location like a treestand or with a rangefinder, it is possible. Whether or not your particular rifle will be accurate enough with that particular ammo is another question.

Some of the advantage comes from Hornady's more streamlined FTX bullets, which have a pointed, but flexible tip. When you are single loading or not using a tubular magazine, pointed bullets with an even higher BC can be used.

Quite a lot of the advantage comes from the LeverEvolution powder that was specifically blended to maximize velocity with the 30-30. Hodgdon's reloading tables list a speed advantage of almost 300 fps over traditional IMR 3031 loads for 150 and 160grain bullets. I compare velocities with IMR 3031 just because it has been used in the 30-30 for over 80 years and is still common. Some newer powders produce a muzzle velocity higher than 3031, but I am not aware of any powder that is as optimized for 30-30 as LeverEvolution.
 
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With the typical 3030 and lousy rest in the woods, and average loose goosey lever gun, a 3030 bullet usually starts a left or right hook away from the deer much past 150. yds. Sorry fellas. It's just best as a short range gun
 
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Fess said:
lthough the 30-30 has traditionally been 150-yard cartridge, the advent of LeverEvolution ammo in 2006 extended that significantly. According to Hornady, their 160-grain FTX ammo has over 1000ft-lbs energy remaining at 300 yards (from a 24" barrel). That is pretty much what traditional 30-30 loads do at less than 200 yards. In fact, at Hornady's introduction of the LeverEvolution ammo, they set up targets and ballistic gel at 300 yards so the press could shoot at that distance to verify the claims.
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Your post was the verification (for lack of a better word) that I was looking for. This thought process started because on of the the podcasts I listen to they were talking about the lever evolution in 45-70 and pushing it lethally out to 300(it was out of a highwall). The person talking about it is a figurehead in the hunting/reloading/optics world, so I have no reason to cry foul and that was a big Bart of the”hey I wonder”
This was Using hornadys newer leverevloution projectile and powder.
I feel like the point has been missed by some, that the question was what has it been pushed too, and what was the performance like.
 
No. We all got it. Your looking at a possible 3030 farm gun and wondering how far it can be hot Rodded. And ya received at least a couple good responses on hotrodding it and a note or two to look elsewhere for better performance than the base and potentially the hotrod.
 
contender said:
7x30 waters with only occasional splits etc.
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That twice in less then a month that this caliber has come up, I looked at the numbers on it and it seems to be a fairly respectable round. The first time was at a local gun store, the guy had a encore or something like that, he had ordered in , didn’t pay it much attention.
contender said:
Find a good bullet that'll do what you seek,, then load it for accuracy & don't look back.
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My old man use to chase velocity when reloading, then sometime mid to late 90’s that all changed. I never asked what brought on the change, maybe just years of chasing it and not getting desired results. He really only reloaded for two calibers 30-06 and 357mag. He did some other calibers in small batches but those were the two he did the most.
Personally I have never “chased velocities”, truth be told I typically get my best groupings out of the dead middle of the load suggestions.
In your
contender said:
And performance is a subjective discussion by itself.
Hunting performance? Paper punching performance? Tin can plinking performance? Training performance?
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it is and I probably should have been more specific, but in general I was wondering if people using newer powders or projectiles(like the gmx ) have increased overall performance. Better energy on target, better accuracy, better wound cavity ect. Heck the cartridge is over 100 years old, just didn’t know if anything had been done to improve it. Just for the record the other calibers I’m looking at are 357mag and 44mag. Wanting to go with a lever gun for this task, for multiple reasons and there are trade offs for each. More capacity with the mags, better energy on target (by like 30% minimum) with the 30-30. So it’s not a long range thing, or a velocity thing, I just haven’t messed with the caliber in over a decade and was just wondering if it had come along any further.
 
Well,,, I also have experience in using Marlin lever actions in .357 & 44 mag,, along with the 30-30's. Again,, performance is a subjective thing. Knowing the caliber,, it's abilities,, as well as it's limitations,, and using the right stuff,, makes all the difference in the world.

It's good you have discovered your "best" stuff has been in the middle so to speak. In general,, I too have found that true much of the time.
 
Regardless of which powder is used, they all have to stay within pressure limits, so I would hardly call any load using reputable load data as “hot rodding”.

But I do agree that accuracy trumps velocity.
 
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I agree with Toprudders comment on the difference between "hotrodding" and just managing to get better performance within established pressure limits. Of course, if the accuracy of a wonder-round is bad from your gun, there is little point to using it.

In the case of LeverEvolution ammo, part of it comes down to Hornady's development and marketing philosophy. One of the entertaining things about Hornady is their marketing strategy of staying in the headlines with something "New!", "Improved!", or, if you can stand the excitement, both "New AND Improved!!!"*. Think SuperPerformance cartridges, Light Magnum, Flex-Tip, 6.5 Creedmoor, etc. When they came up with the idea of the flexible-tip, pointed bullets for leverguns (and 30-30 in particular), they realized that 1000ft-lbs at 300yards would be great for marketing. I tend to be suspicious when I see round numbers like 300 and 1000, but they managed to pull it off. Even with their nifty new more aerodynamic bullet, Hornady could not get there with available powders. So they developed a new blend. They also needed a 24" barrel to get the right numbers by the way. Part of the trick was to figure out a way to pack more powder in the case, a geometry problem, and part was to tune the burn rate for the relatively low pressured 30-30.

Nerdy Stuff:
Although it is just a guess, I saw two tricks that they appeared to use. When I disassembled an early round of LeverEvolution ammo, I noticed that the balls of powder were of multiple diameters. This helped loading density. In addition, with ball powder, the burn rate is affected by the diameter of the individual balls as well as other things like composition and coatings. Hornady has experience from its SuperPerformance ammo with blending powders of different burn rates to widen the area near the peak pressure. This prevents pressure spikes and increases the amount of time the chamber pressure stays high. They call this "progressive burning characteristics". This broad pressure curve increases the bullet velocity without raising the maximum chamber pressure. Hornady's information about its SuperPerformance ammo, which predates LeverEvolution, explains the pressure-curve strategy better than I can, so I have included links:

Super Nerdy Stuff:


* For the record: I don't know how something can be both New AND Improved. But hey, I am not a marketing expert.
 
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Sharps40 said:
If your asking about upping performance the 3030. Strongly suggest you need to drop it as an option and get a higher performance caliber to begin with.
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Agreed- for a truck gun, look at the Ruger american ranch in one of many modern chamberings.

Historical reference: 30-30 is to describe 30 grains of powder in a 30-caliber gun (1894)
 
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