38 Special with black powder

AR10ShooterinNC

AR10ShooterinNC

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Where would one go to find data on loading a 38 Special with real black powder? I would like to try it, original loads were with black powder.
 
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Combat Diver said:
What gun are you shooting it out of? Usually with pure black powder, just fill the case full. That's what they did in the 19th century.

CD
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I don't personally have any BP experience, but that is what I have always heard, BP has to be compressed. If you reduce the load, you have to use some filler on top to keep it compressed.
 
Toprudder said:
I don't personally have any BP experience, but that is what I have always heard, BP has to be compressed. If you reduce the load, you have to use some filler on top to keep it compressed.
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This.

Although, why one would want to I this is....curious.... to me.

Be sure to scrub the heck out of it when you’re done. No way would I do this with a gun I cared about.
 
If you care to hear from someone who has actually loaded black powder cartridges, I will chime in.

In cowboy Action Shooting we have “Frontier Cartridge” categories in which all ammunition must be loaded with black powder or a “black powder substitute” (a “sub” for short). A sub is a “smokeless” powder that mimics the performance of black powder.

Some people are amazed to see black powder ammo being used in a modern cartridge firearm. It works fine in many applications. Until the end of the 1800s, all cartridges were black powder cartridges. Black Powder is classified as an explosive but it generates less pressure than smokeless powder. Just about any modern revolver will operate just fine with BP/sub ammo, whereas some of the very early cartridge revolvers might not handle the pressure of modern ammo, depending on the design and the metallurgy of the old gun.

A couple of cautions, first, as others have said, you should not have air space between the powder and the seated bullet, as it can cause a pressure spike. I personally don’t like using fillers in my cartridges so I use a heavy bullet (a 158 grain bullet for .38 Special) which takes up more room in the case than the 105s I use with smokeless powder. I put enough powder in the case to get a slight compression when the bullet is seated.

The second caveat is that real BP and some of the subs require the bullet to have a so called “black powder compatible” lube, that is, a soft lube. Otherwise you get a residue that will foul up your gun pretty quickly.

I have an engineer friend who has been loading BP ammo for years. He casts his own bullets and pan lubes them, and charges his cases with honest to goodness Goex black powder. Goex makes a cream colored smoke cloud and a flame that is visible in daylight. Really cool but a little more trouble and expense that I want to deal with.

My friend helped me start in the shallow end of the pool by recommending American Puoneer Powder (“APP”), a sub that is compatible with the hard waxlike lube on the commercially cast bullets that I had on hand. It makes plenty of silver gray smoke but does not show a flame. The residue will clean up with tap water.

There are other subs out there such as Hodgdon Triple 7 and Alliant Black MZ that I have not tried but get good reviews. I would avoid Pyrodex.

The .38 Special was developed at the end of the black powder era which accounts for its generous case capacity compared to the 9mm which was developed for smokeless powder. It actually works well with black powder since a .38 Special case full of BP or a sub makes a nice “book” but is still manageable. A .357 Magnum with a full charge is still comfortable to shoot since black powder recoil is more like a push than a kick. If less recoil is desired, a .38 Short Colt case has less capacity.

The APP or BP residue is water soluble. If cleaning with water I use hot water from a kettle so that the gun dries itself. Alternatively I pull the cylinders from my (single action) revolvers, spray them with Ballistol, let them sit a couple of hours, wipe them down and run patches through the bore and chambers, and done. Easier than cleaning after smokeless with Hoppes.
 
I've loaded 45LC with black powder, just loosely fill the case to the top, give it a few taps, top it off if necessary, and crunch in a bullet. Fun to shoot, you get that black powder thud, the smoke, the sparks and the smell. I've only used real BP, never tried it with any substitute.
 
Tim said:
This.

Although, why one would want to I this is....curious.... to me.

Be sure to scrub the heck out of it when you’re done. No way would I do this with a gun I cared about.
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I want to try it out of curiosity, the 38 special was originally a black powder round. I have a stainless steel Gp100 to give it go in. I have wanted a cap and ball revolver for while, I'm looking at this as a test before spending money a new gun.
 
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Crunchy Frog said:
If you care to hear from someone who has actually loaded black powder cartridges, I will chime in.

In cowboy Action Shooting we have “Frontier Cartridge” categories in which all ammunition must be loaded with black powder or a “black powder substitute” (a “sub” for short). A sub is a “smokeless” powder that mimics the performance of black powder.

Some people are amazed to see black powder ammo being used in a modern cartridge firearm. It works fine in many applications. Until the end of the 1800s, all cartridges were black powder cartridges. Black Powder is classified as an explosive but it generates less pressure than smokeless powder. Just about any modern revolver will operate just fine with BP/sub ammo, whereas some of the very early cartridge revolvers might not handle the pressure of modern ammo, depending on the design and the metallurgy of the old gun.

A couple of cautions, first, as others have said, you should not have air space between the powder and the seated bullet, as it can cause a pressure spike. I personally don’t like using fillers in my cartridges so I use a heavy bullet (a 158 grain bullet for .38 Special) which takes up more room in the case than the 105s I use with smokeless powder. I put enough powder in the case to get a slight compression when the bullet is seated.

The second caveat is that real BP and some of the subs require the bullet to have a so called “black powder compatible” lube, that is, a soft lube. Otherwise you get a residue that will foul up your gun pretty quickly.

I have an engineer friend who has been loading BP ammo for years. He casts his own bullets and pan lubes them, and charges his cases with honest to goodness Goex black powder. Goex makes a cream colored smoke cloud and a flame that is visible in daylight. Really cool but a little more trouble and expense that I want to deal with.

My friend helped me start in the shallow end of the pool by recommending American Puoneer Powder (“APP”), a sub that is compatible with the hard waxlike lube on the commercially cast bullets that I had on hand. It makes plenty of silver gray smoke but does not show a flame. The residue will clean up with tap water.

There are other subs out there such as Hodgdon Triple 7 and Alliant Black MZ that I have not tried but get good reviews. I would avoid Pyrodex.

The .38 Special was developed at the end of the black powder era which accounts for its generous case capacity compared to the 9mm which was developed for smokeless powder. It actually works well with black powder since a .38 Special case full of BP or a sub makes a nice “book” but is still manageable. A .357 Magnum with a full charge is still comfortable to shoot since black powder recoil is more like a push than a kick. If less recoil is desired, a .38 Short Colt case has less capacity.

The APP or BP residue is water soluble. If cleaning with water I use hot water from a kettle so that the gun dries itself. Alternatively I pull the cylinders from my (single action) revolvers, spray them with Ballistol, let them sit a couple of hours, wipe them down and run patches through the bore and chambers, and done. Easier than cleaning after smokeless with Hoppes.
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Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to write that!
 
I don't know if it would suit your needs, but Hodgedon Trail Boss powder is a smokless that's big and flaky, and is designed to mimic some of the shooting characteristics of BP. I use it mostly in very light 44 mag loads, and I've been very pleased with it.
 
Bailey Boat said:
The guy said he wanted a BP gun, what's it to you?? The response was aimed at him, not you...
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I just love BP also and thought you might be wanting to trade if he wasn't interested. Sorry I'll keep out of it, I'm assuming you didn't happen to see or pay mind to the LOL I posted following my statement but no worries, I'll know not to post in your conversations in the future.
 
eddie0225 said:
I just love BP also and thought you might be wanting to trade if he wasn't interested. Sorry I'll keep out of it, I'm assuming you didn't happen to see or pay mind to the LOL I posted following my statement but no worries, I'll know not to post in your conversations in the future.
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Misinterpreted your lol since it was in a different reply...
 
Ikarus1 said:
Also, Western Powder's Blackhorn 209 is more or less 'smokeLESS' BP sub that will work well in any modern firearm. You may find it in the clearance section at Walmart this time of year and it burns hot and clean ;)

http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf

One caveat: you have to use magnum primers though
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SASS rules prohibit the use of Blackhorn 209, or of any combination of smokeless and BP, in ANY category.

For those considering participating in a SASS match.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
Guns are not to be sold once purchased...I have every firearm I purchased from the age of 12.
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lol I agree I have yet to sell a gun I did trade one gun for about 5 guns a deal I couldn't refuse. AR if you'd like to shoot a bp revolver you if not to far away could come up and we could mess with my walker it's a blast to shoot it's a 44 with 9 in. barrel loads of fun to shoot and to be honest I can see why they'd be considered one of the deadliest guns at the time
 
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