45 ACP Hand Loads.............

Michael458

Michael458

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Back in the day, I did not have a lot of respect for 45 ACP Hand Loads. Get some bullets, didn't much matter, some sort of cast, or FMJ, what have you, stuff some Bullseye or Unique in the case and go shoot. Really dull and monotonous loading. Bullets were just common, as far as terminal performance, did it really matter if it was a 230 FMJ or 200-230 cast at 800-850 fps? No, it did not.

Over the years I have seen and used many a magic 45 ACP Hollow Point. I have loaded, and I have used Factory Magic 45 ACP ammo. Well, nothing really magic about any of those, even when they test good. I once put a 230 gr Black Talon frontal chest shot of a Cougar in Utah. Cat jumped out of the tree, ran like hell, fell over dead in about 25-30 yards. Recovered the Black Talon Magic bullet, and low and behold, zero expansion, none, could easy load it again and shoot it. Still have that bullet somewhere in my test inventory. No magic there. As always, it has been hit and miss with hi performance 45 ACP bullets.

Make no mistake, handgun bullets are not very impressive in the field hunting, basically drilling holes, even the big powerful common handguns, such as 44 Mag and heavy loaded 45 Colt and 454 Casull. I had a Winchester Lever gun in various African countries several times, in 45 Colt, and loaded HEAVY. Shot a few animals, and those animals were not impressed at all. Using big hard cast bullets, hollow points, did not matter, just not impressive at all. Poke a hole and that is about it. No impressive knock outs.

Lesser thin skinned critters I don't have any experience with, critters one might encounter when walking the streets. We know that 45 ACP has always been a "Go To" cartridge for this application, and it has always received Hi Marks!

The last 5-10 years of Bullet Technology has taken us places we have never been before, both rifle and hand gun. How does one increase the effectiveness of any cartridge? By Bullet Technology of course.

Some of the work that has been done with Rifle Bullets has finally made its way over to the hand guns. In 2016 I decided it was time for me to upgrade my end as well. After 30+ years of Bullseye and Unique, I was quite sure there had been great strides in Powder Tech as well as Bullet Tech. And if I was spending $1 + per bullet, I should at least investigate the powder side just to see if I could make some improvements.......

After many years of working with new Bullet Tech in Rifle Cartridges, I felt like I needed to put some of that energy into the handguns as well. The work that had been done with the rifles ended up flowing downhill to the Hand Gun calibers. I was not directly involved with the hand gun bullets, but the same technology we had put into the rifle bullets should, and would work with hand gun bullets as well, even to a lesser degree, but we should see an increase of terminal effect over old tech none the less.
 
In 2016 I laid hands on the first 45 ACP Raptors from Cutting Edge Bullets, and along with that the matching 200 gr Solids. Both in Copper. Copper is not covered and considered malleable material in BATFs ban on "Solids" for hand guns. Brass on the other hand is, I prefer brass in the rifles. Dan Smitchko owner of Cutting Edge Bullets wanted that same "shear" effect from the Hand Gun Raptors that we get with the rifle bullets that is so devastating. To get that at hand gun lower velocities, you have to cut slits in the nose of the blades so they shear at lower velocity, and also being copper, copper tends to peel and fold back instead of shear, especially at lower velocities. So Dan put slits or cuts in the nose blades to make sure they shear after 1.5 or so inches of penetration. They do, they work and they do indeed produce far more trauma and devastation than standard hollow point expanding conventional bullets. The base continues to penetrate and is found to go as deep and or deeper than heavy weight conventional standard HP's .

In addition there were several other calibers available for Hand Gun cartridges, but this thread we are invested in 45 ACP.

The matching solid was a thing of beauty. Big flat nose solid copper at 200 grains....... It would be a dandy match with the 150 Raptor. Oh and yes, I Love mixed bag magazine load out, start with a Raptor, end up with the Solids, perfection in my mind.

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I decided to really put some effort into new Powder Technology with these bullets. While I am sure Bullseye and Unique would accomplish the mission, as it had for 30 years or more, I would be negligent if I didn't investigate this.

I ended up getting a Contender barrel in 45 ACP, hooking up a strain gage to it and testing pressures. I picked a dozen different powders to try and went to work.

Without doubt, I wanted to push them hard of course, but did not want to exceed +P pressures at 23000 PSI. Long story shortened some, I ended up using Winchester WSF for the 150 Raptors, it gave 21000 PSI and 1250-1275 fps in 5 inch guns. I did try Unique and it did equal the velocity, but at a very high price of 25000 PSI, well over +P pressures. For the 200 CEB Flat Nose Solid I went with Power Pistol, which gave the best overall results and velocity in a variety of platforms from Kimber Ultras/S&W Shields to 5 inch guns, and even longer 8-10 inch guns. Same with WSF over several platforms.

I was successful in the mission, New Bullet Tech combined with newer upgraded powders.

Then I regressed in 2017, right back to good old Bullseye..........

Another bullet that I am very fond of is the 120 Lehigh Extreme Defense. A little different concept between a massive trauma inflicting Raptor style bullet and a Full flat nose solid penetrator. These type bullets are "In Between", they produce a great amount of trauma, beyond the very best of Flat Nose Solids, but not the depth of penetration. They don't produce as much trauma as a Raptor style bullet, but some less, but more than a standard conventional expanding bullet. They are in between on all counts, and penetration is much better than any conventional expanding soft or HP.

JD Jones and I investigated this concept in 2005 with .500 caliber rifle bullets, and it was very successful then, I used this type bullet on Cape Buffalo in 2006 with great success. The new Lehighs are descended from the work we did in 2005 with the rifles, and far more radical today than what JD and I were working with. Lehigh did a great job with this bullet to bring them where they are today, in both hand gun bullets and the rifle versions as well.

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But by the time I put these together, I was not doing pressure work in 45 ACP, and was way the hell too lazy to start up again. I did not do a lot of test work, but boosted the Bullseye up quite a bit, and have been running these with Bullseye since then.

Yesterday I decided to do some work with another bullet and change from Bullseye to WSF if I could find a good load. Later we will look at this, but it is the 185 FN RMR bullet. So why not take a look at the 120 Lehigh with WSF while I am at it?

My load with the 120 Lehigh was 7.3/Bullseye, this gave me 1321 fps in 5 inch guns, 1143 fps in 4 inch guns, 1150 fps in Ultras and Shields. FYI....... For later comparison. Little hot, could see it in the brass and primers, but probably still close to +P, and feed/function in everything across the board. Also in longer barrels, 8 inch guns, it ran 1530 fps.

Since late last year, I purchased a 5.5 inch Kimber 45 ACP, and had designated it as a test gun to keep on the range. I started work with 10.5/WSF yesterday with the 120 Lehigh. In the 5.5 inch gun this ran a whopping 1525 fps and the brass/primers looked good! But, the Extreme Spread was horrible, at 98 fps between TWO ROUNDS. Yes, initial tests are only 2 rounds until something is found promising. I dropped the load to 10/WSF and again got a very large ES of 90 fps, average of 1450 fps. Brass was very good, no pressure signs at all.

I recall a couple of years ago I had a 5 inch S&W 1911. It gave terrible high extreme spreads when I used it as a comparison test gun. I dropped it out of the loop, and decided to get another 5 inch Kimber to test this load.
I had two that I had never fired yet, so grabbed the one gun, tested at 10/WSF, and low and behold two rounds and a 6 fps spread at 1478 fps! Brass, primers, nothing showed any pressure signs at all.

Now this was promising, so more loads were done all at 10/WSF. Same results across the board, higher velocity, less pressure signs, lower extreme spreads, all looks very good at this point, and I think I am adopting this load for all future use of the 120 Lehighs............

Here is how this new load stacks up..... 120 Lehigh 10/WSF
BTW, this is with standard Winchester Large Handgun Primers

5 inch guns 1475 fps, 4 inch guns 1379 fps, Ultras and Shields 1285-1330 fps and in longer 8 inch guns 1653 fps.

If you have a choice and you are getting loads in one gun that show ugly ES results, try another gun......... And don't be afraid to look at new ideas, new powders and so forth...........

Also, I had a huge surplus of Winchester WSF.... HEH HEH.............
 
I have been waiting on Midway to send some brass. Ordered a 1000 pieces of New Starline 45 ACP. I also ordered 100 Pieces of 45 Auto Rimmed Starline, Nickel brass.... Wooo Hooo........ Load us some damn hot ass ammo in that rimmed stuff, that N Frame should handle a little more than 25000 PSI if the brass will hold..... And another 250 pieces of 120 Lehighs.

I found 150 pieces of NEW RP Brass today, loaded that with the 120s..........

In addition to this, I see that many of you are RMR bullet fans. Me too. I particularly like the 9mm and 45 ACP Flat Nose FMJ they have, or had........ I bought a 1000 of the 185s at the time, they did not list the 200s, so I got 185s... .Loading those with Bullseye, and then with all this surplus Win WSF I needed to burn is what brought me around to trying WSF in not only the 185s but the 120 Lehighs as well. I also found a good load with the 185 RMR FN FMJ yesterday, not a very hot load, running 1000 fps in 5 inches and 870 fps in the Ultras and S&Ws........ Consistent and easy to shoot...... Feed/Function 100% in all platforms....... I also have some left over Everglades mixed brass I will load these in. In addition I just cleaned about a 1000 pieces of 45 ACP in the washing.

BatteryOaksBilly said:
Get to work!!! Why you!...I Oughta!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yeah, probably oughta............. HEH...........

That's it, I am sick of it today, going to do something else..........
 
Michael458 said:
Load us some damn hot ass ammo in that rimmed stuff, that N Frame should handle a little more than 25000 PSI if the brass will hold.....
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I would "imagine" it would hold the same pressures 45 Colt would hold??? I remember when Ross Seifred sent White Laboratory the 45 Colt brass to check and they sent it back and said they tested it to 52,000. He was using a Hamilton Bowen 5 shot gun but surely a S&W N frame would take .44 mag pressures?? The only reason you ever see Ruger Single Action gun loads listed from N Frames is not because of lack of dimensional strength. The S&W is only considered "weaker" because the cylinder opens instead of having a pin through the center for retention.

All this to say....Load those cement mixer lookin ones "Hot" for our revolvers. Of course I might just find one in an ACP barrel ;)
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
S&W N frame would take .44 mag pressures
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Yep, if it wasn't .45 caliber.........that takes up a lot of cylinder. I measured all the 45 colt cylinders and assigned pressures based on that a long time ago. But I don't know what the cylinder measures in this 45 ACP gun?? I think I have the S&W N Frames at 28000 PSI or so as I recall. I believe .429 is 36000 PSI......

Regardless, we can run that rimmed case up a bit I am sure...... We will find out.
 
Michael458 said:
Regardless, we can run that rimmed case up a bit I am sure...... We will find out.
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Yes, indeed we did learn about the Auto Rim this week, at least with the 120 Lehigh and the 150 Raptor, which is good enough for me.

I started with the same loads as what I use in the 45 ACP, and came out much lower than ACP loads, by and around 150 fps less. Still have not bothered to measure case capacity, but this is a big indication that Auto Rim has more case capacity than ACP brass. At any rate, I started up......... Now, I was testing with fired Starline Auto Rim brass. I got to 12 gr of WSF with the 120 Lehigh at 1500 fps in the 3 inch gun. Still no issues, I went to 12.5 gr WSF. At 12.5 it got really squirrelly and had 148 fps ES. Not acceptable. Back to 12 and testing 6 rounds the ES was down to 28 fps.

Great, this was the load, no pressure signs, all good........ Now, I had my brand new NICKEL Auto Rim brass ready to load........ Thought, hmmm, maybe I should go test it too. I did, and wow, a huge gain in velocity to average 1609 fps in the 3 inch gun, no pressure, all good.........Why? New brass perhaps, and slightly less case capacity than the fired brass, which I was sizing in the standard ACP size die. About all I can figure, and right now unless I see some sort of issue, going to leave it at that and move on to other more important things............. Official numbers below..........

I also tested the new standard 120 Lehigh ACP Load at 10/WSF in the 3 inch N Frame for 1343 fps. Going to 1609 fps in the Auto Rim is a very substantial increase.

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Same thing with the 150 Cutting Edge Raptor..................Normally use 8.2/WSF with the 150 Raptor in the ACP Case for 1285 fps in a 3 inch gun, equal length to the revolver. After the experience with the 120 Lehigh, I went straight to 9 then to 9.5, and then to 10/WSF. At 10 WSF I was at 1371 fps in the fired Starline, and the Nickel did not change ended up at 1379 fps. Difference, flat base bullet, and the 120 Lehighs are Hollow Base? Maybe. Regardless this is excellent results in the N Frame with Auto Rim.

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Good stuff...Not to be confused with "magic bullets". When these tests are run inhouse and validated for pressure, velocity and performance they are Real Ammo.

After discussion we decided the difference in velocity was directly related to the % difference in bullet weight.
 
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Someone mentioned above "Ballistic Gel"....... We don't use gel here for several reasons. First, 99% of our Terminal studies here are and have been with big bore rifles. Ballistic gel just is not useful in that capacity. Smaller diameter gel blocks more than likely would not even hold together being hit with some big bore bullets. Beyond that, it would be totally impractical to get enough gel blocks lined up to even consider working with various solids.

I started working with Wet Print around 30 years ago. This has proven extremely effective in showing real bullet behavior. What happens in the test work, happens in animal tissue. We never 100% relied upon the wet print mix to state absolutes. After the test work, the bullets went to the field for field tests in animal tissue, and then the two test mediums compared. Over the years we began to build a good solid data base of comparisons between the two. In every single case, bullet behavior is exactly the same in the wet print medium vs animal tissue. What is different is depth of penetration. The wet print test medium is far denser than animal tissue. We have developed very good correlation between the two with various types of bullets. I have numerous examples cateloged showing these comparisons.

Example of one of our test boxes. Each box can hold 65 inches of wet print medium. The medium is soaked and kept wet for several days before actual test work, to make sure it is aqueous through and through. Dry spots can change the dynamics of the test, and animals are not dry. No Trauma inflicting bullet will travel 65 inches. Typical expanding bullets, .308+ in caliber will penetrate from 8-25 inches of test medium, depending on bullet construction, premium expanding, velocity, caliber and other factors. 65 inches of test medium will give you some extra medium to work with if you have several tests to conduct.

When it comes to Solids, you have a different dynamic. All Round Nose solids are unstable once terminal penetration begins. Big bore RN Solids typically can go off course from 10 inches to 25 inches, and they either go out of the top of the box, or sides, or tumble to the sides. Flat Nose properly designed solids can go as far as 75 inches of test medium dead straight, requiring an extra box to catch and document those.

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One of my primary interests in early days was expanding or trauma inflicting bullets suitable for buffalo. I needed a baseline in which to work from, known bullets that have been used and successful for buffalo. I had shot buffalo with the following bullets and knew what they would do, and how they behaved. So one of the first baselines for data was to test these bullets in the medium and get proper measurements. What I learned was that in the test medium these known bullets would penetrate from 19 inches to 24 inches. So this became the standard penetration depth required for buffalo. And by comparing new bullets, other designs, and untested in the field bullets, one would have a reasonable idea if the new bullet would meet the standards required.

How does this reflect on a thread concerning 45 ACP handguns...... Well, stay tuned we will find out........
 
Sorry, but had to give you some background on working with Terminal Ballistics to help some understand why, how and what. One MUST study and understand Terminals before you can make good decisions on what is needed or required to accomplish the mission. I have seen, witnessed and have been told of MANY failures in the field because of poor bullet choices. I am a firm believer in knowing and understanding Terminal Ballistics before you embark upon whatever mission you might embark upon.

How the knowledge and process moves to 45 ACP for me, is to take known qualities of what is considered to be a good bullet and how it behaves in the test medium. Then one can compare other, or new bullets, and designs to what has been proven over the years. Since I don't have field experience with 45 ACP bullets, and especially for their intended purpose and mission, then I needed some guidelines in which to compare. I want to carry the best I can get my hands on, but without some test work, how does one determine that? Word Of Mouth? No, that just don't work for me, I know lots of really big claims, that just did not pan out.

So some years ago I embarked on a 45 ACP testing mission to learn for myself what the truth is, and what we can use for base comparisons. Handgun bullets and velocities do not compare to Rifle Cartridges. Very weak and anemic in comparison. Here are some basic 45 ACP Expanding bullets...........For comparison to other newer designs......

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So we have Golden Sabers, Hydro Shocks, Gold Dots and Silver Tips, decent, common expanding, some premium expanding bullets, and anything from 4-5.5 Inches is the Gold Standard for penetration, if they hold together.
We can deduce if we have a trauma inflicting bullet, and it equals that depth of penetration, holds together, and produces equal or greater amount of trauma inflicted, we would be GOOD.
 
From my hunting days, and other considerations, I personally do not want a full magazine of expanding bullets, or trauma inflicting bullets. I want some Solids, or in some of these cases, FMJ to back those expanding bullets up.

Early on, we learned for buffalo to use the first round as a trauma inflicting bullet, followed by solids. With buffalo normally that first shot your world is calm, the buffalo is unaware of your presence and you have time to take a proper heart/lung shot. But after that, all hell is going to break loose from that point. Your follow up shots are not going to be perfect, you may be shooting through brush, more times than not, you are shooting the south end of a north bound buffalo. In all scenarios after that first shot, you need a SOLID to give you penetration through whatever is required to finish the Dance!

In the street, you may have the same sort of scenario, or you may have something entirely different. Personally I have moved to a mixed bag magazine. In attempt to cover all areas, which is good in thought, but in the end is nearly impossible to sort out to be honest. But one thing, I don't want to rely upon all shots being trauma inflicting bullets, or expanding conventional bullets, I want solids in the mix, as the solids may be required.

So we need to know what SOLIDS do in a handgun as well..............

The old tried and true Round Nose FMJ........

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I have always liked the Hornady Flat Nose FMJ, it is a dandy choice............and far better than the Round Nose for inflicting trauma, that Flat Nose makes a difference........

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And today, my personal favorite is the Cutting Edge Bullets 200 gr Solid and its larger meplat.

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I would be very pleased with either the 230 Hornady FN, but I really like the 200 CEB as well. That extra velocity, and larger meplat inflicts more trauma up front.
 
Michael458 , I've been wondering where you have been as i have not noticed many posts recently. Looks to me you have very much involved in BIG fun doing what you excel at. Thanks for sharing. Have fun testing your work with Billy.
 
If our Correlating data is transferable to hand gun projectiles and velocities what we can count on, IF THIS is factual, is that with Conventional Premium Expanding Bullets we can count on average a 70% increase in depth of penetration above the test medium in animal tissue. For SOLIDS the data in rifles tells us we can look at 35% increase in depth of penetration in animal tissue, compared to the test medium.

If we get 5 inches of penetration with conventional Expanding Bullets in the test medium, then as a rule of thumb we will get 8-9 inches in animal tissue, and for solids if getting 11 inches we would expect to get 14-15 inches in animal tissue.

When we get to Non Conventional Trauma inflicting bullets then we get a bit different value. From what I have seen in Rifles, with Raptor Non Conventional bullets, we get from 90-100% more penetration in animal tissue than the test medium.

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Unlike "Conventional" Expanding bullets, the higher the velocity, the more performance you get.

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Bahamadon said:
Michael458 , I've been wondering where you have been as i have not noticed many posts recently. Looks to me you have very much involved in BIG fun doing what you excel at. Thanks for sharing. Have fun testing your work with Billy.
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Don, he says we are closer than family. I would never dispute that. We are the perfect combo...I have ideas...He has Money!!!!!!!
 
As for the Lehigh Extreme Defense penetrators, it is still an unknown for me in the field. With the exception of early .500 caliber rifle bullets that performed similar to todays Lehigh, but not as radical. From shooting, and the limited test work done on these, I am a believer. As I know the test work, and what it has shown in the past, and I believe in the test work done. I do carry this bullet in my mix bag of tricks, and have no doubts that it will do what I ask of it, even though I have not taken it out to do field work, and likely never will. If I were still hunting buffalo, these same bullets are available in rifle calibers, .458 and .500 caliber. I have done test work on these as well, and suspect that some of my buffalo hunting pals will at some time in the near future go to the field with these. From the test work done, the rifle versions are very buffalo capable, and I would not hesitate to use them in that capacity.

But for now, here is the test work done with the Lehigh. And as it is very non conventional, it too increases performance with increased velocities...... in both Trauma and Penetration................. Do remember, this type bullet is neither a massive Trauma Inflicting bullet, such as the 150 Raptor, nor is it a SOLID designed for DEEP penetration. This bullet is IN BETWEEN these concepts, and does a GOOD job on both ends, good trauma inflicted, and good penetration. Less Trauma than a true Trauma Bullet, equal trauma or exceeding to a conventional expanding. Less penetration than a true solid, but more than any Trauma inflicting bullet or certainly any conventional expanding.

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Bahamadon said:
Michael458 , I've been wondering where you have been as i have not noticed many posts recently. Looks to me you have very much involved in BIG fun doing what you excel at. Thanks for sharing. Have fun testing your work with Billy.
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Well, if you look at the dates, all this is really older work. But happy to share anyway, and please if anyone has any questions or thoughts, I love dialog and love to discuss and talk bullets..........
 
Also did this in a big rush this morning, you know its Mothers Day, and the girls have to have some attention......... Yeah, some long posts, but I felt like I needed to post some things to get to a point for you to be able to compare all things. The how and why we get to new ideas, concepts, and technology. Bullet technology has taken huge leaps in the last 10 years, far more than it has taken the last 100 years..........
 
Some new Bullet Technology is just not that good, at least to my standards. A friend of mine had these, gave me a few to test, I honestly was not impressed at all. It was hard to determine if there was any trauma at all above what a FMJ Round Nose produced........ And no more penetration than.........

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At some point one of my guys also sent some of these to test, and again, I was impressed with this....... These just turned to shrapnel and came very short on penetration.......

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These were not any better to speak of, not impressed with this performance either...........

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Thanks for all the info. That's cool that your getting good results from WSF and Power Pistol. I've been running WSF for about 7-8 years, and Power Pistol for about a year now. Good to see I chose some good powder.

Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk
 
I recently bought a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 ACP... came from the factory with a 45 Colt cylinder as well, but that got pawned. The seller included two boxes of 45 Super. I'm not very familiar with 45 Super, but it seems to me that you have significantly exceeded the performance of 45 Super with these new 45 ACP loads, Michael.

I'm saving me pennies, so that when we sell our house and get situated out in the sticks somewhere, I can start reloading again. I want to get a couple o' buckets of those 45 and 30 cal solids!
 
I have a Rhineland Lee Enfield kit; I've been watching this thread and will be looking for some of the projectiles to make my own handloads.
Hoping to finish the kit during the layoff.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
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Stick Man said:
Thanks for all the info. That's cool that your getting good results from WSF and Power Pistol. I've been running WSF for about 7-8 years, and Power Pistol for about a year now. Good to see I chose some good powder.

Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk
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No worries........ I really like the WSF, I was late to the game with these powders, I believe I started with these in 2015. And still expanding their use. This coming week I have 400 of the 120 Lehighs to load up, all in new Starline brass. All these will be with the new load with 10/WSF........
 
Mike,

I see you use Starline brass alot. A few years back, I ran across a stamping company called Jagemann. They stamp their own brass cases for many calibers.
Have you ever used any Jagemann brass in your testing?
 
Hashknife said:
Mike,

I see you use Starline brass alot. A few years back, I ran across a stamping company called Jagemann. They stamp their own brass cases for many calibers.
Have you ever used any Jagemann brass in your testing?
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No, I have not used and not sure I have heard of Jagemann?.........
 
Michael458 said:
??? Curious, not sure what a Rhineland lee Enfield Kit is?
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Michael, it's a conversion kit for a Lee Enfield action to 45ACP.
Replacement barrel and insert to replace the original magazine, insert holds a 1911 magazine.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
Oneofsix said:
Michael, it's a conversion kit for a Lee Enfield action to 45ACP.
Replacement barrel and insert to replace the original magazine, insert holds a 1911 magazine.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
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OK.... That sounds like fun...... Yes, some of these bullets would be interesting in that........and probably increase performance, but would have to make sure those were marked and not make their way into a 1911 or other....
 
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