9 & 40 subs

BigWaylon

BigWaylon

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I'm getting ready to take the plunge into reloading, and will start with 9 & 40. Both optimized for suppressed shooting.

I know the "proper" way to do it is to load and test and refine and load and test and repeat over and over again. I'm not trying to shortcut the process, but hoping to take advantage of bulk purchases to start.

Already have a line on some brass, and will be making a trip to visit Don to get equipment and components in the next month or two.

I can't shoot on my property, and don't get to shoot as often as I'd like. The prospect of loading up a dozen rounds to test, buying/borrowing a chrono, finding a good place to shoot, and repeating the process seems like reinventing the wheel in this day and age. The goal (which admittedly may be far-fetched) would be to end up with 1500 rounds of 9 and 1000 rounds of 40 pretty soon.

So, I'm hoping some of you can share your experiences. My plan is to go with the coated 147gr and 180gr zombie bullets. While I don't mind tweaking loads down the road, I'd like to at least start with a known recipe (using the same powder) for both calibers that would be most likely to not have any function problems.

I just asked in the chatbox and @Wolffy said something that was a fast burning powder combined with the heavy projectile would be a good option for both calibers. He mentioned Titegroup, Clean Shot and WSF.

Anybody have a particular powder and recipes they'd like to share?

Thanks in advance.
 
What guns are you using? Your oal will be gun dependant.
 
Glocks. Specifically 22, 23 & 27. Lone Wolf barrels in both .40 and 40-9. Plus a 9mm AR with 7" barrel.

And obviously not with a suppressor, and I'd assume less important to the OAL question, but I also plan on picking up Pitbull wheel guns in both calibers just for the heck of it. Assuming whatever runs in the semiautos would work just fine in a wheelgun.
 
@11B CIB seems to have a great handle on reloading for suppressed/unsuppressed shooting.
 
The Lone Wolf barrels typically have a short throat.
I loaded 147 Zombies to 1.12 IIRC, over 3.0 of Bullseye, or 3.2 of Titegroup, ran around 900fps out of the Lone Wolf in my G17, quite accurate.
Quite a bit of powder fouling from both, no suppressor so can't speak to it, no malfunctions but I'd clean it somewhere between 1-2K.

Dunno if you can reach my COAL in 40: 1.165, but Red Dot, Titegroup, and Am Select all delivered very good accuracy around 950fps.

Red Dot was very clean in my 9mm, haven't run enough in 40 to say for sure.
 
Beef15 said:
Dunno if you can reach my COAL in 40: 1.165, but Red Dot, Titegroup, and Am Select all delivered very good accuracy around 950fps.
Click to expand...
How much powder in the .40 loads?
 
BigWaylon said:
How much powder in the .40 loads?
Click to expand...
4.4 of Red Dot; 4.5 of Titegroup; 4.6 of American Select

The Red Dot didn't have any obvious pressure signs but recoil seemed to be getting a little snappy, so I'd back off a tenth or two if you have to load down around 1.13.

At least two tenths lower was still delivering good accuracy and functioning fine. 4.0 of Red Dot was very pleasant, running about 880
 
Wahoo95 said:
If reloading 180gr 40 and 147gr 9mm loads will be subsonic
Click to expand...
Right. Just like my factory stuff is. That was kinda the point. :D
 
If you google "Special K" you'll find a very popular 9mm load. I load 147gr subs using this recipe but I'm away from home so I'm not sure of the exact load. From memory it's 3.7gr of VV320.

I use whatever 147s are cheapest but usually Xtreme or Barry's plated. Sounds nice out of a couple different SBRs and an Octane9HD.
 
I shoot mostly 147gr RN plated bullets through my Glock 19s and 9mm Suppressor

Most common headstamps I'm using are FC, Blazer, and GFL with a little Win and R-P thrown in. I don't waste time with Mil brass because I don't like decrimping the short cases.

My primary load is as follows:

147gr Xtreme plated RN
CCI #500 Small Pistol Primer
3.4gr Titegroup (3.5 & 3.6gr still sounded fine but I went with lowest charge that still functioned flawlessly)
1.135" OAL

For CFE Pistol, all else the same, but 3.9gr of powder
 
Known recipes are found in reloading books... What works great in my gun may not work great in yours. It's not that folks are trying to get everyone to reinvent the wheel but there are a LOT of variables that go into internal ballistics. With semi-auto's you then have to contend with spring rates, etc as far as the gun running. I ran a super light load in my 40 that was great to shoot but wouldn't cycle a lot of guns. It's for reasons like that we often say to work up the load for YOUR gun.

That being said, the data already posted is as good as any. Reloading is one of those hobbies where shortcuts rarely work, though with a few notable exceptions. :) Enjoy!
 
11B CIB said:
I shoot mostly 147gr RN plated bullets through my Glock 19s and 9mm Suppressor
Click to expand...
Would the recipe change with cast? And again with powdercoated cast?

Seems a couple of the charts I saw had different amounts, but there may have also been other variables that changed.

Guess I also need to start figuring out how to determine the proper OAL I need to work with. :confused:
 
OAL in handguns isn't really a huge huge deal... as in, don't lose sleep over it. Any subsonic load data will likely work regardless of the bullet type. It's the faster velocities where people tend to shy away from lead and move towards jacketed.

Take the barrel out of your gun and make up a few test rounds that have no primer or powder. Get the bullet at an OAL that's within allowable specs and make sure it slips into the barrel properly. LOTS of videos/pictures etc on the internet about the "plunk test" so you should be able to find that pretty easily.
 
11B CIB said:
I shoot mostly 147gr RN plated bullets through my Glock 19s and 9mm Suppressor

Most common headstamps I'm using are FC, Blazer, and GFL with a little Win and R-P thrown in. I don't waste time with Mil brass because I don't like decrimping the short cases.

My primary load is as follows:

147gr Xtreme plated RN
CCI #500 Small Pistol Primer
3.4gr Titegroup (3.5 & 3.6gr still sounded fine but I went with lowest charge that still functioned flawlessly)
1.135" OAL

For CFE Pistol, all else the same, but 3.9gr of powder
Click to expand...
I use pretty much the same:

147gr RMR plated
Win SPP
3.4gr Titegroup
1.150" OAL
Works perfectly in my M&Ps & CZ Evo3 both suppressed and unsuppressed.
 
Looks like Titegroup may be as good of a place to start as any.

So, with that in mind (and before anybody fusses as me for not owning any) I just added two items to my cart:
1. Hodgdon's 2017 Annual Reloading Manual
2. Lyman's 50th Edition Reloading Handbook

Before I checkout...that a decent choice for my first two? I found both of them (previous versions) listed in this article:
Five Best Reloading Books Every Ammunition Reloader Needs
 
Those are two good ones for sure. Though most of the Hodgdon info will eventually be on their website. I reload 18 calibers or something like that and I still refer back to several books when starting a load to kind of pick a starting point that they all almost agree on. You'll find the data varies, greatly in some cases.
 
Yep. I saw some of the Hodgdon stuff on their site. But, it's only $8.99, and sometimes it's just better for me to have it in my hands. The other is $19.99, and I had to get to $25 for free shipping (Midway)...and shipping was $9.19 for just the Lyman's, making the Hodgdon's basically free.

I can use websites for other comparisons, so those two should be a decent foundation.
 
Lyman makes a decent book. They also have a cast bullet manual.

The 3.2 of TG I ran was in a stock sprung G17, searching around finds 3.2-3.5 or so fairly common for making minor (I know PF isn't your goal) with coated 147gr bullets. Plated and jacketed take a little more powder to hit the same velocity so you usually see them 3.4-3.6. I forgot to mention, because it didn't happen to me, but my wife was able to limp wrist it and cause malfunctions, so it might have issues with the additional mass of a suppressor @ 3.2.

Anything I list for 40 is running fine in a M&P with 19 or 20lb recoil spring, which though slight is higher than most (any?) stock rate, should cycle any stock or reduced sprung pistol.
 
Beef15 said:
Lyman makes a decent book. They also have a cast bullet manual.
Click to expand...
Reviews seem to indicate the cast manual is fairly useful for somebody that loads/shoots cast even if they don't do the actual casting.

Does it have enough extra stuff over the big manual to make it worthwhile for a brand new reloader? Or just something to add to the library at some point?
 
mckenziedrums said:
The big manual has some cast data in it
Click to expand...
Sounds good. I'll hold off for now. Between what Don knows about his product, what people here that reload will add, and what I get from the other two manuals...I should have a good start. I'll grab that one sometime down the road.
 
@BigWaylon My manuals say plated and cast use the same data and
FMJ is a different animal; variation in the material softness that's pushing down the tube and all that
 
Have not loaded for suppressed, so I can't comment on that. But, fast powder with heavy bullet would be where I would start. A fast burning powder will give a quicker pressure spike that will help the brass expand and form a good gas seal.

IMHO, if you are shooting out of a < 5" barrel, you will have no problems getting 9mm 124gn to be subsonic. Same thing with .40 165gn. I personally think 40 with 165gn bullets is a little more forgiving than with 180gn bullets, especially with a powder like Titegroup.

I don't know how much of a velocity increase you can expect with a 7" barrel, but I was seeing about 250fps more from a 16" barrel than from 4.7" barrel. This was with 9mm 115gn bullets and Power Pistol powder.
 
BigWaylon said:
I'm getting ready to take the plunge into reloading, and will start with 9 & 40. Both optimized for suppressed shooting.

I know the "proper" way to do it is to load and test and refine and load and test and repeat over and over again. I'm not trying to shortcut the process, but hoping to take advantage of bulk purchases to start.

Already have a line on some brass, and will be making a trip to visit Don to get equipment and components in the next month or two.

I can't shoot on my property, and don't get to shoot as often as I'd like. The prospect of loading up a dozen rounds to test, buying/borrowing a chrono, finding a good place to shoot, and repeating the process seems like reinventing the wheel in this day and age. The goal (which admittedly may be far-fetched) would be to end up with 1500 rounds of 9 and 1000 rounds of 40 pretty soon.

So, I'm hoping some of you can share your experiences. My plan is to go with the coated 147gr and 180gr zombie bullets. While I don't mind tweaking loads down the road, I'd like to at least start with a known recipe (using the same powder) for both calibers that would be most likely to not have any function problems.

I just asked in the chatbox and @Wolffy said something that was a fast burning powder combined with the heavy projectile would be a good option for both calibers. He mentioned Titegroup, Clean Shot and WSF.

Anybody have a particular powder and recipes they'd like to share?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

I have the range and the chrono. You have my phone number. Give me a call anytime and we'll work up some loads.
 
ncav8tor said:
I have the range and the chrono. You have my phone number. Give me a call anytime and we'll work up some loads.
Click to expand...
So, can I just bring the press and clamp it to a shooting bench? :D

I guess my option is to load up 10-20 rounds of various loads and see which one works the best? Then come back home and make a bunch more of that combo?

At this point I'll just pick the powder and projectile, so the only variable would be the amount of powder?
 
The only subsonic load I have is for 45acp and only because it's already subsonic. I pick up the hodgdon magazine every year just because it's nice to have. But if I'm using their powders I look it up online. I like using the powder manufactures data ove the bullet makes (personal preference). But what drums says about the same load having different results in different guns is spot on. However, a known good load can be a great starting point to work from.
 
BigWaylon said:
So, can I just bring the press and clamp it to a shooting bench? :D

I guess my option is to load up 10-20 rounds of various loads and see which one works the best? Then come back home and make a bunch more of that combo?

At this point I'll just pick the powder and projectile, so the only variable would be the amount of powder?
Click to expand...

I usually load six test rounds of each powder charge. Seems arbitrary but it's enough to test cycling and slide lock back but not such a large quantity that I have a ton of test ammo left over that didn't function well enough
 
11B CIB said:
I usually load six test rounds of each powder charge. Seems arbitrary but it's enough to test cycling and slide lock back but not such a large quantity that I have a ton of test ammo left over that didn't function well enough
Click to expand...
Ok. I have 3 handgun hosts and one 9mm AR host. So maybe 20 works out. I mean the range of powder charges aren't that wide, so it's not like I'm going to have to try 20 different combos (assuming the powder and projectile weight stay consistent).
 
For example, using the database on hodgdonreloading.com, I only get one result when I choose 9mm Luger -> Hodgdon -> Titegroup -> 147gr.

image.png

So, my only possible loads to try are 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 & 3.6? And load to 1.10"? Although others on here load longer than that with the same bullet weight and powder?
 
BigWaylon said:
For example, using the database on hodgdonreloading.com, I only get one result when I choose 9mm Luger -> Hodgdon -> Titegroup -> 147gr.

View attachment 3360

So, my only possible loads to try are 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 & 3.6? And load to 1.10"? Although others on here load longer than that with the same bullet weight and powder?
Click to expand...
If it were me I'd go 3.2 3.4 and 3.6 to find out what works best. If those don't work to your liking you can try the middle ones.
 
billyh said:
If it were me I'd go 3.2 3.4 and 3.6 to find out what works best. If those don't work to your liking you can try the middle ones.
Click to expand...
And while I assume this is true, I'm going to ask it anyway...

3.2 is the general guideline as to what is minimally required to make the firearm function and maintain enough velocity so that accuracy and distance aren't too compromised. At the same time, it would also be the quietest?

And 3.6 is the point where pressure safely maxes out?

If that's true...I'd just as soon start at 3.2, and load some 3.3 and 3.4 in case something doesn't reliably function.
 
BigWaylon said:
And while I assume this is true, I'm going to ask it anyway...

3.2 is the general guideline as to what is minimally required to make the firearm function and maintain enough velocity so that accuracy and distance aren't too compromised. At the same time, it would also be the quietest?

And 3.6 is the point where pressure safely maxes out?

If that's true...I'd just as soon start at 3.2, and load some 3.3 and 3.4 in case something doesn't reliably function.
Click to expand...
To a point you are correct. When loading for pistol I've always started in the middle. If the load was accurate and there were no signs of pressure I just left it at that. If it wasn't accurate enough I went with a charge up or down on both sides to test. I've been luck enough with pistols not to have to deviate much from the middle of the road. Remember, it's a pistol round not a precision rifle ;)
 
Thanks for the input. The main reason I'd test the bottom of the range is going after the quietest rounds. It won't all be shot suppressed, but most of it will be.
 
I don't think that I can tell the difference between 3.2gr and 3.4gr of titegroup in 9mm pushing a 147 bullet from sound, but they do feel different.

I'm too lazy to go downstairs to check, but believe that I was pushing a plated 9-124 with 3.5gr of titegroup last weekend, good function in the sig p226, CZ 75b and AR9-5". Was really just burning them up since I have a few 9-147 waiting for me to pickup at L13, and I prefer the 9-147.

I suspect that I could reduce the charge and still cycle the guns, but at some point they are moving so slow that bullet drop at 100 yards becomes unacceptable.
 
BigWaylon said:
So, can I just bring the press and clamp it to a shooting bench? :D

I guess my option is to load up 10-20 rounds of various loads and see which one works the best? Then come back home and make a bunch more of that combo?

At this point I'll just pick the powder and projectile, so the only variable would be the amount of powder?
Click to expand...

Yep and yep:p.

Not knowing what you plan to shoot them out of and what your powder of choice is makes it a little tough to offer advice on what to load. I have load data for various powders and bullet weights but in my research, I was looking for something that made the respective power factor needed for USPSA shooting in certain and wildly different firearms (all that I loaded were super-sonic unless I made a mistake and accidentally went subsonic).

Basically and I am sure you know this, you will need to be 1000-1050 fps to stay subsonic. What will function in a revolver (I would bet you don't even own any, lol) may not reliably function in a semi-auto.

I am responding to this without reading what was posted after I posted my offer. So, I don't know what has been posted to date.

I still stand by my offer to help you figure this all out.
 
ncav8tor said:
Not knowing what you plan to shoot them out of and what your powder of choice is makes it a little tough to offer advice on what to load.
Click to expand...
The hosts were posted in my 2nd post. :p

G22, G23 and G27. Both LWD .40 and 40-9 barrels for all three. Plus my 7" 9mm AR.

And yes, I'm planning on acquiring both 9mm and .40 wheel guns in the near future, as soon as the two I'm after come back in stock.

Powder was posted somewhere earlier in the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and buy several pounds of Titegroup to use with both calibers.
 
BigWaylon said:
Looks like Titegroup may be as good of a place to start as any.

So, with that in mind (and before anybody fusses as me for not owning any) I just added two items to my cart:
1. Hodgdon's 2017 Annual Reloading Manual
2. Lyman's 50th Edition Reloading Handbook

Before I checkout...that a decent choice for my first two? I found both of them (previous versions) listed in this article:
Five Best Reloading Books Every Ammunition Reloader Needs
Click to expand...

I would rather have the Lee 2nd edition than both of those. More load data.
 
BigWaylon said:
For example, using the database on hodgdonreloading.com, I only get one result when I choose 9mm Luger -> Hodgdon -> Titegroup -> 147gr.

View attachment 3360

So, my only possible loads to try are 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 & 3.6? And load to 1.10"? Although others on here load longer than that with the same bullet weight and powder?
Click to expand...

That OAL sound a little short for RN bullets...XTPs are hollow points. I'd start a little longer and do the plunk test to make sure they chamber in your barrels. Also you are using lower charges/pressures, but pressures can spike really quickly if you cram a bullet too deep in there
 
Slacker said:
I would rather have the Lee 2nd edition than both of those. More load data.
Click to expand...

While it is handy to have the data in one place, and I do reference my Lee manual often, there is no data in the Lee manual that can't be found online from the powder manufacturers. If you check the data in the Lee manual for the Hodgdon powders, for instance, you should find the identical data on the Hodgdon website or annual guide (with more info, such as barrel length, specific bullet used, etc). And the online data should be the most up-to-date.

Lyman is an independent source of data.

When I start to work up a new load, I like to get data from as many sources as possible.
 
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