9mm Sub Gun

MasterOfDisaster

MasterOfDisaster

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I am not sure where Sub Gun topics are supposed to go, so the PCC section was what I defaulted to. Currently, I'm in the market for a 9mm smg or pcc and have narrowed my search down to 3 platforms: the MP5, MPX, and B&T GMH9. I do know that the APC9 won the army contract, my only qualm with the APC9 is that it's heavier than the other 3 and (I know this is minor but it still irks me) it looks almost identical to my UMP. I feel like I'd prefer to just buy the 9mm parts for my UMP, unless someone convinces me the APC9 is just the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Aside from holding all 3 in-store and shooting a friends MP5 clone, my experience is pretty limited. I've done some research, but I'd like to hear from the community their thoughts.

Here are some opinions I've formed so far based on what I've been reading. By no means am I declaring these fact, just what I've come across in different threads and conversations with friends.

-MP5 takes the cake for shooting suppressed due to not throwing gas in your face like the MPX or GHM9
-The forward operating controls on the MPX and GMH9 appeal to me as most of my experience is on AR platforms
-The MPX is cheaply built compared to the other 2 and has a large mark-up; The only evidence I have to support this is that a friend who works in a retail gun shop said it costs SIG $600 to make the MPX - information he says is straight from the manufacturer
-Not a huge fan of the MP5 bolt not holding open on empty...in the time it takes you to line up your next shot and pull the trigger, you are probably already done reloading the other 2
-I've read that the MP5 is a softer shooter, but am not convinced there can be that much of a difference with 9mm

I'm standing on the ledge of buying one of these, just in need of a gentle push :)
 
What is your use for the gun? Just fun shooting, self defense, or competition?
 
pics of UMP, please
 
Have you looked at CZ Scorpion Evo S1 pistol with a folding stock. I have one and it's a blast to shoot. Of course it needs a few upgrades to make it even more fun. I also use it as a house gun.
 
teamglock2002 said:
Have you looked at CZ Scorpion Evo S1 pistol with a folding stock. I have one and it's a blast to shoot. Of course it needs a few upgrades to make it even more fun. I also use it as a house gun.
Click to expand...

I have not seriously looked at it...which I probably should have because there is significant savings to be had there compared to the other 3.
 
Alot of video's on you tube with people comparing different sub type guns. Of course you have to take it for what its worth. LOL
 
teamglock2002 said:
Alot of video's on you tube with people comparing different sub type guns. Of course you have to take it for what its worth. LOL
Click to expand...

Yeah definitely! Watched a few of them. GarandThumb has a video on the GMH9 where the title says 'MP5 Competitor?' and then another video on the MPX where the title says 'MP5 killer' LMAO. Who knows man, every gun has it's positives and negatives and in conjunction with everyone's opinion it can be a lot of noise, but there is definitely valuable information out there.
 
I have owned two MPXs and two MP5s. Actually an HK94 and an SP5. To me the bolt hold open kills me, but is a non-issue once I first fired both suppressed. The recoil is completely different. While a 9mm doesn’t have very much recoil at all, the SP5 is a freaking laser beam. I do not care if I ever own another MPX, but I wouldn’t part with my SP5. Do not get me wrong, the MPX is awesome, but once you go roller.....

BDA8E21B-59BF-420C-93F9-EE22DBBE247C.jpeg
 
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charliedeltajuliet said:
I have owned two MPXs and two MP5s. Actually an HK94 and an SP5. To me the bolt hold open kills me, but is a non-issue once I first fired both suppressed. The recoil is completely different. While a 9mm doesn’t have very much recoil at all, the SP5 is a freaking laser beam. I do not care if I ever own another MPX, but I wouldn’t part with my SP5. Do not get me wrong, the MPX is awesome, but once you go roller.....

View attachment 220644
Click to expand...

That's a gorgeous piece of hardware. I'm glad you made that point, because I will be primarily shooting suppressed. I don't want to take this thread down a rabbit hole, but I am curious if you had any reservation on your end about buying the SP5 with it not being sear compatible out of the box? Where as some of the higher end clones such as Dakota Tactical are. I do not own a registered sear and I imagine if I ever do have the $35k to spend on one, buying another host or having the SP5 modified to accommodate one will be a drop in the bucket.

Another issue I'm having is finding an SP5! One of my LGS has one, but they want $3,700 for it :confused:

Back to the original topic...so your take is you don't like the bolt not holding open, but shooting suppressed and recoil of the MP5 outweighs that negative?
 
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....if shooting suppressed, consider something with some type of delayed blowback....straight blowback is a louder at the shooters ear....the lessened recoil of delayed blowback is a.bonus!!

If like to accessorize.....an ar in 9mm is an option......some.of them do hold the bolt open on the last round....

If the above isnt an issue, The Ruger PC9 is nice....
 
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I had a APC9. Sold it. Mags proved to be fragile with plastic feed lips. Nice gun for a range toy, but it doesn't really do anything a Stribog can't do for a lot less cash.
This said, the APC9 Pro variant can be had to take Glock mags. This was a development that might have seen me keep mine.

I've shot the Scorpion and the APC9 side by side. Scorpion is a fine toy, and it feels like a toy. The B&T feels more serious, but plastic mags...
I've also shot a Tavor set up for 9mm. That thing was pretty cool, but meh trigger (bullpup) and it takes a little adjustment to get used to the rear being the heavy spot.

Seriously, check this thing out before you decide. The next generation is imminent and will be roller locked like the MP5. https://dkfirearms.com/product/grand-power-stribog-9mm/
 
MasterOfDisaster said:
That's a gorgeous piece of hardware. I'm glad you made that point, because I will be primarily shooting suppressed. I don't want to take this thread down a rabbit hole, but I am curious if you had any reservation on your end about buying the SP5 with it not being sear compatible out of the box? Where as some of the higher end clones such as Dakota Tactical are. I do not own a registered sear and I imagine if I ever do have the $35k to spend on one, buying another host or having the SP5 modified to accommodate one will be a drop in the bucket.

Another issue I'm having is finding an SP5! One of my LGS has one, but they want $3,700 for it :confused:

Back to the original topic...so your take is you don't like the bolt not holding open, but shooting suppressed and recoil of the MP5 outweighs that negative?
Click to expand...

That is absolutely correct. As far as the sear block, it is easy for a gunsmith to remove. I lucked up and found mine when they first came out. They really are a pleasure to shoot. It is my favorite firearm I own, hands down. I am an HK person, I love most HKs. Dakota makes great MP5s, but I truly wanted another German made true HK. To me the extra money was well spent. To most it wouldn’t be.
 
MDP-9-Tactical-Grey-3139.jpg


Have you looked at these?? VERY Nice gear made locally in Charlotte. Roller Delayed AR-9...

https://angstadtarms.com/mdp9/
 
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I've got a zenith 5rs with MI handguard and a scorpion evo with similar setup and a folding tailhook brace. I like em both but...the mags for the scorpion are much cheaper than the mp5 mags. I did switch out the trigger and some other things on the CZ and love the upgrades. Overall the zenith was 2x as much....but the CZ is pretty great for the money.
 
Spekter said:
I've got a zenith 5rs with MI handguard and a scorpion evo with similar setup and a folding tailhook brace. I like em both but...the mags for the scorpion are much cheaper than the mp5 mags. I did
switch out the trigger and some other things on the CZ and love the upgrades. Overall the zenith was 2x as much....but the CZ is pretty great for the money.
Click to expand...

I like the Scorpion but it is sort clunky. You can really feel the massive bolt when shooting compared to the MP5 clones. It also has a lot more play in the fit and finish. I did a bunch of HBI upgrades to mine. It is a decent shooter but not in the same class.

I have had really good luck with the KCI Gen 2 MP5 mags. They are my go to range mags. I paid about $30 a pop.
 
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Good to know on the mags, and i agree fitand finish is better on the mp5 clone, but for 2x as much it should be in my opinion. I will say i carry the CZ in a bag in the car in my get home bag...the mp5 stays in the safe. So...for me different purposes for each...range toy and edc.
 
I'm a biased MP5 owner (9 & 10mm versions) and one of them always gets packed for a range trip. No experience with any of the new hotness from B&T and Stribog but you aren't getting them in FA configuration unless you're a SOT/FFL so that leaves the HK and AR15/M16 families. The roller delayed upper from Mean Arms looks interesting along with those from CMMG and Angstadt.

I don't think I've shot my blowback 9mm upper on my M16 more than half a dozen times since finishing my MP5 9mm gun so ya know where I stand.
 
Spekter said:
Good to know on the mags, and i agree fitand finish is better on the mp5 clone, but for 2x as much it should be in my opinion. I will say i carry the CZ in a bag in the car in my get home bag...the mp5 stays in the safe. So...for me different purposes for each...range toy and edc.
Click to expand...

The other mags to get when they are available are the POF mags. They sell or around $30 and they are high quality!
 
My son bought a Stribog 9mm. It was banging steel at 50 (and sometimes 100) yards shooting off hand with a Vortex red dot. I was pretty danged impressed. The mag followers stick somewhat, but he seemed to remedy that.
 
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MasterOfDisaster said:
Yeah great question, sorry I left that out. I typically always purchase and set my firearms up for self-defense.
Click to expand...

I've owned an MP5SD for 30 years.

The terms "full auto" and "self defense" are not usually compatible. Years ago when I bought my first subgun I was advised not to ever use it in a self defense situation except as a last resort. Supposedly the use of FA in self defense is considered excessive use of force, and can turn out poorly for the shooter.

I've had the good fortune to have shot a lot of the world's pre-86 subgun models. The two that I felt were the most controllable (and thus desirable for competitive shooting) were the MP5 family and the Colt DEA 9mm.

You can build up a 9mm yourself and later convert it to FA by buying either a registered drop in sear or an M16 lower. That would be less $ than the MP5 and would provide you with a last round lock.
 
I have a MP5 clone, a USC and a converted UMP. Love them all but the LRBHO im not a fan of. Not on your list but the CMMG Mkg in 45 i picked up is the bees knees with a can on it.

The UMP is VERY soft shooting, the bolt weighs a ton, even better with a can on it. Only downside is the cost to convert from a USC and mags are spendy. Its my go to truck/travel gun/protester digester.
 
MasterOfDisaster said:
I am not sure where Sub Gun topics are supposed to go, so the PCC section was what I defaulted to. Currently, I'm in the market for a 9mm smg or pcc and have narrowed my search down to 3 platforms: the MP5, MPX, and B&T GMH9. I do know that the APC9 won the army contract, my only qualm with the APC9 is that it's heavier than the other 3 and (I know this is minor but it still irks me) it looks almost identical to my UMP. I feel like I'd prefer to just buy the 9mm parts for my UMP, unless someone convinces me the APC9 is just the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Aside from holding all 3 in-store and shooting a friends MP5 clone, my experience is pretty limited. I've done some research, but I'd like to hear from the community their thoughts.

Here are some opinions I've formed so far based on what I've been reading. By no means am I declaring these fact, just what I've come across in different threads and conversations with friends.

-MP5 takes the cake for shooting suppressed due to not throwing gas in your face like the MPX or GHM9
-The forward operating controls on the MPX and GMH9 appeal to me as most of my experience is on AR platforms
-The MPX is cheaply built compared to the other 2 and has a large mark-up; The only evidence I have to support this is that a friend who works in a retail gun shop said it costs SIG $600 to make the MPX - information he says is straight from the manufacturer
-Not a huge fan of the MP5 bolt not holding open on empty...in the time it takes you to line up your next shot and pull the trigger, you are probably already done reloading the other 2
-I've read that the MP5 is a softer shooter, but am not convinced there can be that much of a difference with 9mm

I'm standing on the ledge of buying one of these, just in need of a gentle push :)
Click to expand...

Need clarification on your wants. SUB MACHINE GUN or a PPC that looks like a SMG ie semi only?

I've got lots of experience with 9mm SMGs. MP5s, STENs, Sterlings, Beretta M12S, Swedish Ks/Port Said, MP40s and others. Only one PPC and that was Rugers PC9 back in the 90s.


CD
 
Combat Diver said:
Waiting on PSA to release their affordable MP5 clone. This CD19 has screwed up production.


CD
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That and the fact it’s harder to make then it looks. It’s not as easy as an AR15.
 
Do any of these MP5's have decent triggers, or can decent trigger jobs be done?

I like the slow cycle feel to them but triggers have been terrible on the ones I have tried.
Except for Scsmiths SD. That thing is tits.
 
NKD said:
Do any of these MP5's have decent triggers, or can decent trigger jobs be done?

I like the slow cycle feel to them but triggers have been terrible on the ones I have tried.
Except for Scsmiths SD. That thing is tits.
Click to expand...
Most have terrible triggers
 
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NKD said:
Do any of these MP5's have decent triggers, or can decent trigger jobs be done?

I like the slow cycle feel to them but triggers have been terrible on the ones I have tried.
Except for Scsmiths SD. That thing is tits.
Click to expand...
There was a video at SHOT where the guy interviewed PSA and they asked this question. PSA is working with CMC to make a better trigger than any MP5 or clone on the market.

around the 7:00 minute mark
 
Timfoilhat said:
There was a video at SHOT where the guy interviewed PSA and they asked this question. PSA is working with CMC to make a better trigger than any MP5 or clone on the market.

around the 7:00 minute mark
Click to expand...


There is no way they hit a sub $1300 price point on that gun. IMHO
 
On triggers......

Volquatzen.makes ruger pc9 triggers
Most any AR lower should be able to accept a.good aftermarket trigger.
CZ scorpion factory trigger is terrible, but can be much improved.
Sig MPX....?
MP5 triggers are usually terrible, I have no idea about.aftermarket upgrades.

In addition to the above AR mentioned, CMMG banshee is delayed blowback.
 
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