AR pistols

[DirtySCREW]

Ok this is a SERIOUS question. ...just bare with me. ..

It is MY understanding that the stripped lower HAS to be registered as a pistol on the ATF form 4473 at the LGS at time of purchase.

So...if I wanted to build an AR pistol. ..I have to make sure of that correct????
And how would I find out if the LGS registered the stripped lower as a pistol as they were told to do?

And this is a serious question as well...how would one carry an AR pistol if they have their CCH permit? Wear a trench coat and have it slung over you crossbody?? Lol

Or is it more of a car weapon?

DS

 

[bigfelipe]

It's not registered as a pistol. It's listed as other on the 4473. If you build a rifle out of it, it's a rifle forever as I understand it...

And yes, it's a vehicle weapon. You can (in NC) carry an AR pistol loaded and concealed in your vehicle if you have a CCW. Can't do that with a rifle, even an SBR. And if you cross state lines there's no paperwork required like an SBR.

 

[wolfpack65]

It's just a regular lower, build it as a pistol and treat it as a pistol.
It's just a big pistol!

Once a rifle, always a rifle.

I built a 300 blackout AR pistol and I'm waiting on doing paper work for an SBR to see if the Hearing Protection Act sees fruition.

 

[DirtySCREW]

Are you saying that all stripped lowers are listed as "other" on the form?

DS

 

[wolfpack65]

Yes.

There is a place to check on the left side of the inside, on page 2, for "other" I think.
it's been a while since I reviewed and checked the 4473's at my LGS.

 

[DirtySCREW]

And what are some of the good pistol uppers? I'll build the lower. ..but probably just buy the upper.

DS

 

[wolfpack65]

I wanted a side charging upper so I got a Spartan upper from JoeBob's.
Not cheap...$224.
I built the upper...prefer to build all my "rifles" now that I know how.
But, if you go with a standard upper from, PSA, Anderson, Aero Precision, you can't go wrong.

 

[wolfpack65]

Here's mine

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I've got a Sig Brace and a Bushnell TRS-50 (or whatever that little red dot is) on it now.

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[bigfelipe]

And what are some of the good pistol uppers? I'll build the lower. ..but probably just buy the upper.

DS

Aero makes the best bang for the buck stuff I've seen lately. Honestly you should just build what you want. Unless you're considering bottom of the barrel like Rguns or Radical uppers for $200 you'll save money and get what you want. It's easier to build an upper than a lower. NKD sent me a cool link yesterday that could be a good base for your build. Some new Noveske Bazooka Green kit...

On a side note and just for shites and giggles, I picked up a 300blk Radical upper for $200 shipped, runs like a sewing machine...

 

[DirtySCREW]

Aero makes the best bang for the buck stuff I've seen lately. Honestly you should just build what you want. Unless you're considering bottom of the barrel like Rguns or Radical uppers for $200 you'll save money and get what you want. It's easier to build an upper than a lower. NKD sent me a cool link yesterday that could be a good base for your build. Some new Noveske Bazooka Green kit...

On a side note and just for shites and giggles, I picked up a 300blk Radical upper for $200 shipped, runs like a sewing machine...

Lol....I think the lower is easier to build than the upper. I might be biased cause I had trouble building the upper. I had an Aero Precision that the holes are not big enough when installing the forward assist. I bought an Anderson stripped upper and all went well.

DS

 

[DirtySCREW]

Nice pistol Wolfpack65!!

I dunno if I wanna go with the Blade or that sig brace.....


And just curious. ..why a 300 Blk out pistol for those of you with them. Ain't they a hand full? ?

DS

 

[Short Fuse]

The 300 is quite controlable as a pistol.

 

[wolfpack65]

Nice pistol Wolfpack65!!

I dunno if I wanna go with the Blade or that sig brace.....


And just curious. ..why a 300 Blk out pistol for those of you with them. Ain't they a hand full? ?

DS

Thanks.

It is one of my favorite firearms to shoot.
Though it is a little hard due to my cross dominance issue (right handed, left eye dominate)

And, why?
IDK, why not?

I have a couple more lowers that I'm trying to decide on what to build with them....6.5 Grendel, 556 pistol, AK on an AR platform????

 

[JimP42]

357 magnum muzzle energy is about 600-800 ft-lb.
45 ACP is 350-600. 9mm is about 380-500.
300 BLK is 500 (subsonics) up to 1400 or so.
Military 556 is in the 1750 ft-lb ballpark.
But an AR15 pistol weighs a lot more than a 1911 or a revolver and you have a forward grip (shhhh.... it's a secret that you can hold the rail without a vertical grip!).
Very controllable, even supersonics and 556, with only a cheek weld on the tube. Subsonic 300BLK has negligible recoil from an AR pistol.

Why? Because it gives you a concealable and legally concealable rifle equivalent. AR ergos (except the shoulder), capacity, and power under a coat on the passenger seat. And just because I can.

Now that I think about it, I need to see how a scoped 18" barrel upper with a bipod on a pistol lower freehand and with a rear bag does at 300 yards or so. Just because I can.

I do put a Magpul AFG (legal) on my short railed uppers, just to remind myself not to hold it like a normal rail and get burned by the gases.

 

[BigWaylon]

Are you saying that all stripped lowers are listed as "other" on the form?

DS

It's not just all stripped lowers. It's all lowers.

Even if it's sold completely assembled, with a stock, it's still an Other. At that point, there's no such thing as a rifle lower or pistol lower. You can buy one that has a stock and initially build a pistol from it...then convert it to a rifle and back and forth. You just can't build it into a rifle and then convert it to a pistol, as at that point you have a "weapon made from a rifle" which qualifies an SBR (assuming barrel

 

[11B CIB]

Nice pistol Wolfpack65!!

I dunno if I wanna go with the Blade or that sig brace.....


And just curious. ..why a 300 Blk out pistol for those of you with them. Ain't they a hand full? ?

DS

If I had to do it over, I'd get the Blade. Sig Braces were the only thing on the market when I got mine. The Shockwave Blade looks "cleaner"....less bulky.

 

[RedneckFur]

My understanding is that virtually all stripped lowers are sold as "pistols". I know when I've bought all mine, I showed my CCW permit and bought them as such. I do have one AR pistol, and its been great so far. Just to be on the safe side of the law, my pistol AR has only ever been a pistol, and never a rifle. However, I would love to pick up another lower to register as an SBR for a little more fun at the range.

Pic related.. my AR pistol. 11.5 stainless 5.56 PSA upper, on an Anderson "don't tread on me" lower. I personally love the Vortex 1X prism optics. I've got 2 of them so far, and they're my go-to optic on carbines now.

And I will say, the Shockwave blade is a very good brace. Its very rigid, and not bulky at all. I'm very satisfied with the performance!

 

[bigfelipe]

Nice pistol Wolfpack65!!

I dunno if I wanna go with the Blade or that sig brace.....


And just curious. ..why a 300 Blk out pistol for those of you with them. Ain't they a hand full? ?

DS

I like the SIG sbx15 brace best. I have a blade too, but I really don't like the attachment method. It's a set screw. In order to get it tight enough not to spin, you can distort the buffer tube. Probably not an issue but the concept worries me.

As to the 300blk pistol, I got mine just because. It was a complete upper for $200. I honestly didn't expect it to work well but it's great. It's basically a 45acp so it's not a handful at all. Just a fun toy for me.

 

[bigfelipe]

Here's my go to setup... Suppressed 7.5 Aero upper on a WarSport lower with KAK tube and SBX, CMC trigger and BAD/Seekins controls. Trijicon MRO optic w/KAC/Troy backup.

 

[RedneckFur]

Here's my go to setup... Suppressed 7.5 Aero upper on a WarSport lower with KAK tube and SBX, CMC trigger and BAD/Seekins controls. Trijicon MRO optic w/KAC/Troy backup.

I just realized you and I both shoot at the same range.

 

[bigfelipe]

Here's my go to setup... Suppressed 7.5 Aero upper on a WarSport lower with KAK tube and SBX, CMC trigger and BAD/Seekins controls. Trijicon MRO optic w/KAC/Troy backup.

I'm not a member there, but I have friends that are. Hit you up next time we go out there...

 

[DirtySCREW]

Thanks guys...awesome pics. They always help.

Let me ask you this: why did you get your upper with the A2 front sight post.....or do you wished it was a flat top? ?

I'm thinking a flat top with bius would be cleaner and not get snagged if it had to come out quickly.

DS

 

[11B CIB]

Thanks guys...awesome pics. They always help.

Let me ask you this: why did you get your upper with the A2 front sight post.....or do you wished it was a flat top? ?

I'm thinking a flat top with bius would be cleaner and not get snagged if it had to come out quickly.

DS

Technically it's a "fixed front sight post", as they were on M16A1-A4, M4, etc.

I like the sight post. Strong as hell, the red dot clears it....doesn't get snagged any more than everything else (flashlight, optic, etc etc)

This is the only picture of mine I have:

 

[bigfutz]

I read two conflicting interpretations:
1. Once a rifle, always a rifle.
2. If it's a pistol first, you can rebuild back and forth.

I would ask, "How do they know?" The obvious answer is, "They don't, but that doesn't make it legal." I interpret it as:
1. If you buy a complete rifle, you cannot convert it to a pistol.
2. If you buy a lower only, you can built it and rebuilt it at will until you transfer it through an FFL as one or the other.

Please critique.

 

[BigWaylon]

I read two conflicting interpretations:
1. Once a rifle, always a rifle.
2. If it's a pistol first, you can rebuild back and forth.

I would ask, "How do they know?" The obvious answer is, "They don't, but that doesn't make it legal." I interpret it as:
1. If you buy a complete rifle, you cannot convert it to a pistol.
2. If you buy a lower only, you can built it and rebuilt it at will until you transfer it through an FFL as one or the other.

Please critique.

All of that is correct, if you change #1 to "originally a rifle, always a rifle".

Assuming you started with a lower, whether stripped or built, with a receipt to prove it...then it always could've started as a pistol. Any of those would've (or at least should've assuming you have a competent FFL) transferred as "other firearm" on the 4473. Just don't buy a complete rifle (that transfers as "long gun" on the 4473) and ever configure it as a pistol. Buying from an individual is a little more muddy due to a lack of 4473, but the ATF would still have to prove you're in the wrong.

The ATF would have to prove yours started as a rifle, which they won't be able to do. You could build the pistol and take a pic if you wanted, but it's not really necessary.

I have two lowers marked pistol, and configured as such (no stock, smooth tubes with foam covers), but I don't use them. I've found them fairly useless, which is why all mine are now SBRs. I think I have six registered lowers (plus a couple other SBRs) because I don't ever swap uppers...build a dedicated setup and register another one if I want to.

Just to throw another wrench into the discussion, there's a definite gray area in whether you can go back and forth from pistol to SBR and back. I understand both sides of the argument, and neither is a definite winner.

 

[11B CIB]

My one question about stripped lowers:

Say you buy a stripped lower from Armslist and even inquire about how it was purchased new, and get the answer that it was originally a stripped lower.

You turn it into a pistol, but some situation happens (self defense shooting in the home for example), and come to find out it was originally sold as a rifle and someone in the chain of private sales stripped it down. Since you bought it as a stripped lower, are you responsible for its original configuration?

 

[DirtySCREW]

Let's hope Trump can get rid of the alphabet soup stupidity! !

DS

 

[bigfutz]

Is there a way to trace the FFL sale history (without having the firearm involved in a crime, of course)? I have also "been told" (by an FFL dealer) the serial number is not required to be submitted with the 4473, so how is the "sold as a pistol" associated with the S/N?

 

[wolfpack65]

All the 4473s I reviewed and completed, ALL must list the SN of the firearm.
If you buy a lower, stripped or otherwise, it has a SN which must be included on the 4473.
Pistol, long rifle, other, all have a SN.

I don't know about tracing the sale history, someone more knowledgeable in that information, will have to reply.

 

[bigfutz]

All the 4473s I reviewed and completed, ALL must list the SN of the firearm.
If you buy a lower, stripped or otherwise, it has a SN which must be included on the 4473.
Pistol, long rifle, other, all have a SN.

I don't know about tracing the sale history, someone more knowledgeable in that information, will have to reply.

The dealer I mentioned said submitting page 2 with the S/N is not required to complete the NICS check. I dunno... that's just what he said.

 

[kcult]

Here's mine. Phase 5 pistol kit on a DPMS lower.




As far as the lowers being pistol or rifles, I can remember only one instance of me buying a stripped lower and being asked whether it will be one or the other. I said rifle and I believe I remember him marking a box on the paperwork indicating my answer.

 

[BigWaylon]

As far as the lowers being pistol or rifles, I can remember only one instance of me buying a stripped lower and being asked whether it will be one or the other. I said rifle and I believe I remember him marking a box on the paperwork indicating my answer.

If that was in NC, you have an FFL that doesn't know the law. I clarify it that way because there are some states that have different filing/registration requirements.

 

[BigWaylon]

My one question about stripped lowers:

Say you buy a stripped lower from Armslist and even inquire about how it was purchased new, and get the answer that it was originally a stripped lower.

You turn it into a pistol, but some situation happens (self defense shooting in the home for example), and come to find out it was originally sold as a rifle and someone in the chain of private sales stripped it down. Since you bought it as a stripped lower, are you responsible for its original configuration?

Let me first say I don't know. But, I have three opinions on the topic:

1. If it transfers to you as an other firearm (as it should), I'd consider it a reboot and wouldn't worry about it.
2. You could call the manufacturer, provide the SN, and ask if it was sold as a lower or a rifle.
3. I've never seen enough of a deal on a used lower for it to matter. Buy those for truck guns, spare ARs, etc. Considering you can find new ones for $50-$70, just buy a new one if you're building an AR pistol and have any question about the legality.

 

[kcult]

If that was in NC, you have an FFL that doesn't know the law. I clarify it that way because there are some states that have different filing/registration requirements.

It was in SC.

 

[DirtySCREW]

My thing is. ...if I tell the clerk I want them listed as pistols or as other (stripped lowers) and he forgets/doesn't care/gets distracted cause it's busy/whatever....and list the lowers as rifles. Then I build a pistol out of it and get jammed up in the legal system because of a cop that doesn't know what's what.

That's my fear

DS

 

[DirtySCREW]

I guess let me put it/ask it like this:

Does the owner have to PROVE the originality of the stripped lower....or if the AR pistol meets ATF guidelines one would be ok legally???

DS

 

[BigWaylon]

It was in SC.

Now that I think about it, it may not matter which state as far as the 4473 goes. I believe the states that require handgun (or whatever) registration have additional forms.

 

[BigWaylon]

My thing is. ...if I tell the clerk I want them listed as pistols or as other (stripped lowers) and he forgets/doesn't care/gets distracted cause it's busy/whatever....and list the lowers as rifles. Then I build a pistol out of it and get jammed up in the legal system because of a cop that doesn't know what's what.

That's my fear

DS

Don't sign a 4473 unless it's filled out properly. You can't (accurately) list a receiver as a pistol or rifle. It's an "other firearm":

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Question 18. Type of Firearm(s): Check all boxes that apply. “Other” refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are “firearms” by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a “firearm other than a shotgun or rifle,” it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not “pistols or revolvers” under Section 923(g)(3)(a).

Unrelated to this discussion, but note that PGO "shotguns" are "other firearms" because they're not actual shotguns, as shotguns are designed to be fired from the shoulder.

I guess let me put it/ask it like this:

Does the owner have to PROVE the originality of the stripped lower....or if the AR pistol meets ATF guidelines one would be ok legally???

DS

I honestly don't know when it would ever come into question. I'd bet a majority of LEO wouldn't have a clue how to handle it...and that's the only reason I opted to use lowers that have the word PISTOL engraved on them.

I would assume they have to prove you're guilty, as opposed to you proving you're innocent. Thus (as I mentioned earlier) somebody calls the manufacturer and asks how it left the factory. I can't imagine a physical trace of multiple 4473s being done.

 

[pirate]

PSA 11.5" stainless steel barrel upper on a Spikes pistol lower with Shockwave brace.
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Radical Firearms 7.5" AR pistol

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[DirtySCREW]

Nice pistols Pirate

I noticed a lot of pistols with 11.5" barrels. Wouldn't you want as short as possible. .or is it just a preference thing to get better ballistics??

DS