Arizona police body cam shows boy, 14, fleeing before being shot by cop

J R Green said:
When it becomes your job to confront criminals I'm sure that you will get the benefit of the doubt, until then your comparison is flawed.
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That doesn't change a thing as far as what I posted. I don't care if it's my job, your job, or any other person's job to confront criminals. If you're not a law enforcement officer and you are confronted by a criminal, there are much higher stakes and risks of prosecution if one of us takes a certain action versus that of an LEO. You may think it's flawed..... I don't.
 
Qball said:
That doesn't change a thing as far as what I posted. I don't care if it's my job, your job, or any other person's job to confront criminals. If you're not a law enforcement officer and you are confronted by a criminal, there are much higher stakes and risks of prosecution if one of us takes a certain action versus that of an LEO. You may think it's flawed..... I don't.
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I don't think you are right. Charges are decided on the facts of the individual cases. We have seen plenty of police charged and plenty more non LEOs not be charged for defending themselves lately. The facts don't bear out your bias in the matter.
 
J R Green said:
When it becomes your job to confront criminals I'm sure that you will get the benefit of the doubt, until then your comparison is flawed.
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Comparison isn't flawed because the right to use deadly force is the same for people who have the job to confront criminals and those that don't. Unfortunately the standards are applied differently.

When it becomes your job to confront criminals, you are often given cars with sirens, badges, vests, radios, backup, handcuffs, less than lethal tools, and unfortunately....immunity. That cop didn't have any more right to execute that kid than the owner of the truck.
 
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SC380 said:
Comparison isn't flawed because the right to use deadly force is the same for people who have the job to confront criminals and those that don't. Unfortunately the standards are applied differently.

When it becomes your job to confront criminals, you are often given cars with sirens, badges, vests, radios, backup, handcuffs, less than lethal tools, and unfortunately....immunity. That cop didn't have any more right to execute that kid than the owner of the truck.
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I would argue that with all that stuff comes a very real chance that a criminal will use violence to avoid getting caught. When it’s your job to catch criminals, the criminal will usually react violently to trying to be caught.

For a citizen, it’s not my job to catch criminals which drastically effects the behavior in an encounter.

LE should be held to very similar standards to the rest of us in use of force. But you are a fool if you don’t understand that making it their job to enforce the law does change how use of force plays out. The reason a citizen might get treated differently here is two fold. One, we are not required to apprehend a suspect so they can simply run away knowing we are not likely to pursue. And two, a fleeing criminal is less likely to threaten a use of force on someone that is not likely to pursue them. Assuming the LEO is telling the truth about the gun. Which will be a huge part of this case. Anyone see any reports of them recovering a weapon?


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AR10ShooterinNC said:
We can view the video of the cop, and at no point does the kid turn around, at no point is a gun (toy or not visible).

This is just more of the police being too scared to do their job properly.
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You can see the kid as he’s exiting the truck and starting to run off from that low camera angle? I can’t. How can you say at no point when you loose sight of the kid initially? And there is a very real chance the difference between the camera position and the eyes of the officer could show something very different. That looks like a lapel mounted camera, not really the best angle to get a POV video.


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chiefjason said:
I would argue that with all that stuff comes a very real chance that a criminal will use violence to avoid getting caught. When it’s your job to catch criminals, the criminal will usually react violently to trying to be caught.

For a citizen, it’s not my job to catch criminals which drastically effects the behavior in an encounter.

LE should be held to very similar standards to the rest of us in use of force. But you are a fool if you don’t understand that making it their job to enforce the law does change how use of force plays out. The reason a citizen might get treated differently here is two fold. One, we are not required to apprehend a suspect so they can simply run away knowing we are not likely to pursue. And two, a fleeing criminal is less likely to threaten a use of force on someone that is not likely to pursue them. Assuming the LEO is telling the truth about the gun. Which will be a huge part of this case. Anyone see any reports of them recovering a weapon?


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"Citizens" (police officers and non-police officers) can only use deadly force when there is an immediate threat of bodily harm to themselves or others. Deadly force isn't intended to simply make it easier for some cop to apprehend people...that is what all of those other things I listed are for. If the criminal uses sufficient violence in order to avoid arrest, then deadly force can be used. The officer is going to have to articulate why/how he determined there was sufficient threat in this case...I don't think there was. They will use the gun as an excuse and to perpetuate the idea that anybody perceived to have guns should be shot. Fools will buy into it.
 
chiefjason said:
You can see the kid as he’s exiting the truck and starting to run off from that low camera angle? I can’t. How can you say at no point when you loose sight of the kid initially? And there is a very real chance the difference between the camera position and the eyes of the officer could show something very different. That looks like a lapel mounted camera, not really the best angle to get a POV video.


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If the kid actually pointed a gun from inside/behind the truck, most cops would start yelling and open up on him...not continue to stalk him like a deer from behind a plastic trash bin. I believe he saw something but I don't believe a gun was ever pointed at him. I believe the statement provided by the PD does not mention a gun being pointed at the officer.

 
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That answers some of the questions posed here. Like why was the driver detained and whether or not the kid had a "gun". It seems like the burglary suspect might have not been honest about the airsoft issue.

I'll just say that I don't think the shooting in this case is justified but I can see the where it might be deemed legal in the end. An officer would be justified in using deadly force when the suspect is using deadly force to effect an escape. Having the ability to use said force isn't the same as using it but that issue will be left up to the authorities and eventually the people of Tempe Arizona.
 
BudE said:
I'm curious. How many people who posted on this thread have ever been "on the job" and out on the street, not a primarily investigative job but a street cop? Not trying to start a war, just curious.
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Only the ones that have also shot little kids? :p

Seriously what does that matter? Sure, it is a tough job. There are lots of tough jobs. That's why people practice, study and train. And as we were all taught when we first started shooting or got our carry permits we are responsible for every bullet.
 
J R Green said:
When it becomes your job to confront criminals I'm sure that you will get the benefit of the doubt, until then your comparison is flawed.
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You are absolutely right...his comparison is flawed. Police officers, who's job it is to confront criminals, have the benefit of warning and intel. This officer was told, going into the situation, where a possible crime was taking place, and what that crime may have been. He had time to make sure he was wearing body armor, his firearm in an open and easily accessible location. He had a radio to call other friends who have body armor, firearms, and other gear. He had the benefit of knowing he was walking into a possible dangerous situation.

Qball walking to his car only to see someone brandishing a firearm and running leaves him with exactly 1 second to go from "I have to pick up milk on the way home" to "OH NO GUN!". He will have to go from zero to 100 in a matter of moments and his entire future will be altered by what he does in the course of those few adrenaline and horror filled moments.
 
J R Green said:
I don't think you are right. Charges are decided on the facts of the individual cases. We have seen plenty of police charged and plenty more non LEOs not be charged for defending themselves lately. The facts don't bear out your bias in the matter.
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Really? How about political prosecutions like that DA in Baltimore going after the cops? Prosecutions for reasons other than facts happen all the time. Nifong in Durham?
 
CZfool68 said:
Really? How about political prosecutions like that DA in Baltimore going after the cops? Prosecutions for reasons other than facts happen all the time. Nifong in Durham?
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And how did those work out? Really you're just proving my point.
 
CZfool68 said:
Really? How about political prosecutions like that DA in Baltimore going after the cops? Prosecutions for reasons other than facts happen all the time. Nifong in Durham?
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Isn't that the whole reason to get all the facts before charging? I agree that this shooting from this video doesn't look good. I also think that there is a high probability of an indictment. But that said proving something beyond a reasonable doubt is more difficult than people believe.
 
JimB said:
Article said that bad guy stole the airsoft from the truck.

Sorry, but guy running with a handgun, I find it hard to say that the officer shouldn’t shoot just because a bad guy is running away. Is bad guy “safe” until he gets to cover and pops off a few rounds, then he’s safe again as he runs to the next corner?

For most of us we only have to worry about the person being a risk to us, so guy runs away we’re done, but the officer has to worry about the guy being a risk to anyone. I’m inclined to cut him some slack on this one.
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Thanks for sharing this. This is a solid point that those of us who don't chase bad guys for a living would consider. The info after the fact will bias against the point, but I appreciate you making it.
 
Ferrisfan said:
Thanks for sharing this. This is a solid point that those of us who don't chase bad guys for a living would consider. The info after the fact will bias against the point, but I appreciate you making it.
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I tend to agree with JimB a bit as well. But, to get on a soap box a bit, the concept of "I only have to worry about him being a risk to me" is a pretty sad way to look at the world. "As long as me and mine are safe, then I don't have to be concerned with what evil is going on around me." heh...Look where that got Spiderman.
 
http://www.wbtv.com/2019/01/18/form...uilty-using-excessive-force-handcuffed-woman/

Hickory, NC’s finest cop. Called an outstanding officer. Supported him until pressure came. I believe her dad was a cop. She was confronted for parking too far up next to a curb area.

Hickory Police love to slap everybody they encounter who talks with resisting arrest. Girls face and teeth got messed up bad. She weighed about 110 lbs.

Officer George is a bad ass cop. Took five years to indict him on federal crimes. Thank goodness for security cameras or he walks.
 
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Cowboy said:
If someone is running away with a gun being chased by a cop isn't it plausible they could be dangerous to other people as well. Not just the cop.



Yeah this guy deserves everything he gets. You just don't treat people that way.
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You mean they proscecuted... a.... COP?!
 
I can't believe that a cop doesn't know that everything he/she does (short of going to the bathroom) is videoed. Either by a citizen or a security camera. You would think they would learn, but I guess not.....
 
Cowboy said:
If someone is running away with a gun being chased by a cop isn't it plausible they could be dangerous to other people as well. Not just the cop.

Yeah this guy deserves everything he gets. You just don't treat people that way.
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It is plausible and there are very similar cases where it was successfully argued. I think what is going to be tough in this one is did the officer sufficiently identify himself and issue commands in a way that the suspect had a chance to surrender...especially since he was not involved in a fight nor did he engage the officer.
 
SC380 said:
It is plausible and there are very similar cases where it was successfully argued. I think what is going to be tough in this one is did the officer sufficiently identify himself and issue commands in a way that the suspect had a chance to surrender...especially since he was not involved in a fight nor did he engage the officer.
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I don't disagree. Just from the video it doesn't look justified, but we have to take into account all the other things you have to look at as well. The video is just one piece of the evidence and it only gives a slim outline of the events because of angle field of vision.
 
J R Green said:
And how did those work out? Really you're just proving my point.
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Your point was that prosecutions are based on facts and evidence wasn’t it? I am just saying that is not always true. DA’s can prosecute or not for lots of reasons. Independent from facts.
 
CZfool68 said:
Your point was that prosecutions are based on facts and evidence wasn’t it? I am just saying that is not always true. DA’s can prosecute or not for lots of reasons. Independent from facts.
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And your point proves that when they don't prosecute based on facts bad things happen to them.
 
BlackGun said:
http://www.wbtv.com/2019/01/18/form...uilty-using-excessive-force-handcuffed-woman/

Hickory, NC’s finest cop. Called an outstanding officer. Supported him until pressure came. I believe her dad was a cop. She was confronted for parking too far up next to a curb area.

Hickory Police love to slap everybody they encounter who talks with resisting arrest. Girls face and teeth got messed up bad. She weighed about 110 lbs.

Officer George is a bad ass cop. Took five years to indict him on federal crimes. Thank goodness for security cameras or he walks.
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If that had been my daughter or granddaughter, well, I will just leave it at that! I hope the POS is convicted and has to serve hard time with a bunch of people he beat up! Respect is earned! Demanding it won’t get real respect!
 
Tappet said:
If that had been my daughter or granddaughter, well, I will just leave it at that! I hope the POS is convicted and has to serve hard time with a bunch of people he beat up! Respect is earned! Demanding it won’t get real respect!
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Yeah this guy is trash. I had a woman tell me he was getting railroaded. This girls face was all messed up, as were her teethe. Like I said her father was a cop in another county. As you can see she was handcuffed with no way to break her fall. There was a lot of talk around Hickory city that he liked to ruff up people a little when making arrest. Nobody in the department cared.

If he did that to my daughter I would be dressed in black one night on a mission. This type of cop is making whole departments hated. Sgt. George had a long leash. This certainly was not his first throw down.
 
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BlackGun said:
Yeah this guy is trash. I had a woman tell me he was getting railroaded. This girls face was all messed up, as were her teethe. Like I said her father was a cop in another county. As you can see she was handcuffed with no way to break her fall. There was a lot of talk around Hickory city that he liked to ruff up people a little when making arrest. Nobody in the department cared.

If he did that to my daughter I would be dressed in black one night on a mission. This type of cop is making whole departments hated. Sgt. George had a long leash. This certainly was not his first throw down.
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This makes the whole department bad...Why is ok in the police life style to protect bad cops?
 
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BlackGun said:
Yeah this guy is trash. I had a woman tell me he was getting railroaded. This girls face was all messed up, as were her teethe. Like I said her father was a cop in another county. As you can see she was handcuffed with no way to break her fall.
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There are a handful on here that cheer when this sort of thing happens.
 
There was a guy who took off in a field to commit suicide. The cops showed up with the swat team. He turned, they repeatedly shot him with sniper fire. The details were told differently by the sheriffs office. Thank the Lord a new sheriff in the county took office.

Its been a dark eight years in this county. I’m so glad the fools in this place have come to their senses with SBI investigations turning the vote.
 
BlackGun said:
There was a guy who took off in a field to commit suicide. The cops showed up with the swat team. He turned, they repeatedly shot him with sniper fire. The details were told differently by the sheriffs office. Thank the Lord a new sheriff in the county took office.

Its been a dark eight years in this county. I’m so glad the fools in this place have come to their senses with SBI investigations turning the vote.
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So he committed suicide by cop.
I don't disagree with change I think it needs to happen to refresh new ideas and purging the bad.
 
My question is was he in this country legally. If he wasn't then he was where he wasn't supposed to be & he ran into a stray bullet.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
This makes the whole department bad...Why is ok in the police life style to protect bad cops?
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Because there’s no one else to protect? Cops generally can’t stand the concept of Due Process. And generally have no problem killing dogs, whether puppies or restrained or whatever. God forbid if you’re holding a cell phone or a hose nozzle or a joy stick or a lot of other harmless things and a cop sees you! You’re justifiably dead by the hero in blue.
 
I'll say it when I think police are in the wrong, but in this case, I have mixed feelings.

The officer was responding to a break in. When caught the suspect in the act, the suspect was fleeing with a gun in his hand (the cop can't tell its airsoft)

I don't think shooting at a fleeing suspect who hasn't fired is the best course of action, but I can certainly see how the officer would feel it was the best in the heat of the moment.

In the end, the kid brought this one on himself. He chose to steal. He chose to carry a (fake) gun.
 
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