ATF Classifies Rare Breed “Forced Reset” Trigger As MACHINE GUN

[willpgn]

It’s just a recap of the Rare Breed owner’s video. Nothing new.

Can you hit me with a summary?

It’s an update that says they were denied their motion for a preliminary injunction against the ATF yesterday. Last one I saw from the owner was posted above and they were waiting on that ruling at the time of that update.

Watch the short video to find out why…I’m no lawyer, but the judge basically said that they didn’t prove that the ATFs actions here would cause significant harm (or some legal term like that) to Rare Breed or the owners…I’m sure I’m probably not stating the reason technically correct. 🤨

 

[Jerzsubbie]

@willpgn you're right. I had assumed they weren’t going to get the injunction, but I guess that is an update.

 

[willpgn]

@willpgn you're right. I had assumed they weren’t going to get the injunction, but I guess that is an update.

Hard for me to believe that this action by the ATF does not put their company and owners at potential significant harm/impact…or whatever he termed it! 🤔 Seems obvious to me! Buuttttt….these are lawyers, judges and the Feds here! 😵‍💫

 

[Jerzsubbie]

Hard for me to believe that this action by the ATF does not put their company and owners at potential significant harm/impact…or whatever he termed it! 🤔

I actually have to agree with the judge that their arguments were weak. They didn’t provide examples of how the ATF acts in these cases, seizing assets, records, URLs, etc, and only had one example of ATF arresting someone for possession of a RBT. Their examples could’ve been a little more broad to show a pattern of behavior and the resulting harm.

They also argued that ATF shutting them down would prevent him from providing for his family, but I believe he has other income streams and, I’d bet, enough assets to care for his family for period of time.

 

[wired]

Is that even a defense. A drug dealer could claim that the police shutting him down would cause a financial hardship. How does that even come into play?

 

[GymB]

To win the injunction you need to show a high likelihood of winning on the merits and that not getting the injunction will cause imminent and irreparable harm. I guess not being able to feed his family was his shot at that, but it's not very compelling when ATF would argue that if the injunction is granted thousands of unregistered machine guns would be flooding our cities.

 

[Prudii]

 

[GymB]

Short version, he says that Rare Breed was denied their motion for a prelim injunction. They have also requested a customer list from Rare Breed. Then he says some dumb stuff like “this could lead to shootouts with ATF.”

 

[NCFubar]

How long before the ATF does a “visit” to Rare Breed and seizes buyer information (names and addresses) so they can threaten the buyers with “visits”? And when will they serve notice on Big Daddy/WOT triggers? The camel’s nose is just slipping under the edge of the tent’s side!

 

[GymB]

How long before the ATF does a “visit” to Rare Breed and seizes buyer information (names and addresses) so they can threaten the buyers with “visits”? And when will they serve notice on Big Daddy/WOT triggers? The camel’s nose is just slipping under the edge of the tent’s side!

My guess is that they will ask nicely once for rare breed to stop manufacturing and selling. If they comply ATF will then ask for the list. If they do not comply they will stop production by force and ask for the list through the discovery process, and the court will require that they deliver it. Obviously they’ll charge the owner with manufacturing and selling mchine guns. They’ll offer to settle for something like 125% of profits on sales and the full customer list. He may be able to afford the legal fight, but will he be willing to do time if he loses…probably not. Sadly I don’t see this one getting before a jury.

The more likely case is when ATF takes one and someone sues. That person won’t really be facing a criminal charge, he or she bought it in good faith as a semi-auto trigger and is surrendering it, perhaps to the court, while the issue is adjudicated. Assuming that things continue to go badly and ATF requires that these be destroyed by all owners, the NRA should setup relationships with law firms and encourage people to submit them to be held in escrow during litigation and then start all the suits. Heck the people that send them in might not even need to be named in the cases.

 

[Tucci454]

I think everyone who can own a firearm should be able to buy a machine gun. Watching the video, that sure looks like a machine gun to me. If you pull and hold it keeps firing although technically the trigger IS resetting. I have zero love for the ATF, but that's definitely more of a machine gun than other things they have classified that way. Sweet trigger!!!

 

[Notacop]

Looks like the owner of rare breed is going to fight it and not just roll over. You can still purchase the triggers of their website.

Companies that bring things to court need to be supported.

It’s an update that says they were denied their motion for a preliminary injunction against the ATF yesterday. Last one I saw from the owner was posted above and they were waiting on that ruling at the time of that update.

Watch the short video to find out why…I’m no lawyer, but the judge basically said that they didn’t prove that the ATFs actions here would cause significant harm (or some legal term like that) to Rare Breed or the owners…I’m sure I’m probably not stating the reason technically correct. 🤨

Felony charges are not harmful duh

 

[GymB]

I think everyone who can own a firearm should be able to buy a machine gun. Watching the video, that sure looks like a machine gun to me. If you pull and hold it keeps firing although technically the trigger IS resetting. I have zero love for the ATF, but that's definitely more of a machine gun than other things they have classified that way. Sweet trigger!!!

But “what it sure looks like” isn’t part of the legal definition. When I see Jerry Micelek (sp?) shoot a revolver it sure looks like a machine gun.

 

[rdinatal]

Does the trigger need to be pulled for each shot? I'm honestly not sure.

 

[GymB]

Does the trigger need to be pulled for each shot? I'm honestly not sure.

By one definition of pulled, yes, but maybe not by another. The trigger moves forward and back, but at such speed that the pull is pretty much involuntary rather than an intentional act.

 

[rdinatal]

By one definition of pulled, yes, but maybe not by another. The trigger moves forward and back, but at such speed that the pull is pretty much involuntary rather than an intentional act.

Like a bump-stock?

Serious question as I'm not familiar with how those triggers function.

 

[JohnFreeman]

How long before the ATF does a “visit” to Rare Breed and seizes buyer information (names and addresses) so they can threaten the buyers with “visits”? And when will they serve notice on Big Daddy/WOT triggers? The camel’s nose is just slipping under the edge of the tent’s side!

It's a perfect time to dispose of all of those records. There's no obligation to keep them.

 

[GymB]

Like a bump-stock?

Serious question as I'm not familiar with how those triggers function.

The movement is different than with a bump stock. With a bump stock the gun move around under a stationary finger, the trigger is in effect pulled by the movement of the gun. With the forced reset trigger the finger is pushed away as the trigger resets and the strain of trying to hold the finger still results in it reflexively pulling the trigger for subsequent shots. In both cases it takes an intentional effort to stop firing rather than an intentional effort to continue firing, and in that little but potentially important way they are similar to the trigger on a machine gun.

 

[GymB]

It's a perfect time to dispose of all of those records. There's no obligation to keep them.

They are considered evidence in a criminal investigation, I’m sure that they were served with an order to retain all records. The time for destruction without consequences is long past.

 

[Jerzsubbie]

They are considered evidence in a criminal investigation, I’m sure that they were served with an order to retain all records. The time for destruction without consequences is long past.

Exactly. It would be very clear why they were destroying records right now.
It would’ve been great for them to purge all records every 30-45days from the beginning to minimize what could be turned over when they’re inevitably required.

 

[Notacop]

The movement is different than with a bump stock. With a bump stock the gun move around under a stationary finger, the trigger is in effect pulled by the movement of the gun. With the forced reset trigger the finger is pushed away as the trigger resets and the strain of trying to hold the finger still results in it reflexively pulling the trigger for subsequent shots. In both cases it takes an intentional effort to stop firing rather than an intentional effort to continue firing, and in that little but potentially important way they are similar to the trigger on a machine gun.

Bad ak triggers are now banned. No more slap

 

[beamernc]

Got an email yesterday, if anyone wants to get on the list.

 

[Dan0311]

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

• Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
• The frame or receiver of any such weapon
• Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or
  
• Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

These triggers OBVIOUSLY do not fit the ATF's definition of a Machinegun. The trigger resets on every semi-auto firearm I know of; these just reset with a stronger spring. so they're calling it a machinegun. Absurd. The ATF hates work-arounds, or a better mousetrap, therefore instead of trying to change the laws, they just move the goal posts and the referees (judges) are often on their side. It's a rigged game and more and more people appear to be recognizing that.

 

[rdinatal]

They are considered evidence in a criminal investigation, I’m sure that they were served with an order to retain all records. The time for destruction without consequences is long past.

Like HRC?

 

[JohnFreeman]

Like HRC?

Beautifully done.

Rich libera politicians can ignore most laws. Protected class people can ignore many laws.

 

[wired]

Like a bump-stock?

Serious question as I'm not familiar with how those triggers function.

Two issues with the FRT.

1. The pressure on the trigger is never released. Define pull or "single function". Single function done by the shooter? Shooter pulls trigger and doesnt release tension on the trigger. The trigger mechanism is doing some hokey sh!t on its own but the ATF is arguing that the shooter himself has pulled the trigger once for multiple shots. Machine Gun.

2. The "trigger bar" is a safety sear. Keep the hammer , by way of the trigger, from releasing until the bolt closes. The ATF has long considered safety sears to be full auto capable. Because they are.

 

[davesc2]

Two issues with the FRT.

1. The pressure on the trigger is never released. Define pull or "single function". Single function done by the shooter? Shooter pulls trigger and doesnt release tension on the trigger. The trigger mechanism is doing some hokey sh!t on its own but the ATF is arguing that the shooter himself has pulled the trigger once for multiple shots. Machine Gun.

2. The "trigger bar" is a safety sear. Keep the hammer , by way of the trigger, from releasing until the bolt closes. The ATF has long considered safety sears to be full auto capable. Because they are.

This isn't much different than a lightning link, just an extra step but continuous fire is still enabled by the bcg group contacting a bar that releases the trigger from it's reset position as long as pressure on the trigger is maintained.

 

[GymB]

I haven‘t played with one, but I do think that the trigger must move forward to reset. If pressure on the trigger was maintained or increased the device would fail rather than continue to fire. In function it is not a lightning link nor an auto sear.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

This isn't much different than a lightning link, just an extra step but continuous fire is still enabled by the bcg group contacting a bar that releases the trigger from it's reset position as long as pressure on the trigger is maintained.

no
no to everything yo said
A lightning link trips the disconnector while the trigger remains pulled.
with a forced reset, if you keep pressure on the trigger and don't let the trigger reset, you'll jam it. If you hold the trigger back, the bolt won't even eject the brass after firing.
it is impossible for it to continue firing without the trigger going forward and you pulling on it.
you have to let the trigger go forward before you can fire again.

what are you, the atf?
If you can't say anything right, don't say anything at all.

 

[wired]

I haven‘t played with one, but I do think that the trigger must move forward to reset. If pressure on the trigger was maintained or increased the device would fail rather than continue to fire. In function it is not a lightning link nor an auto sear.

What happens is you pull the trigger and keep tension on the trigger. . The gun fires and the bolt goes back . The carrier pushes the hammer back and down and the trigger cams off the hammer and locks onto a rear sear that looks a lot like a drop in auto sear. RB calls it a locking bar. As the bolt goes forward the bolt rotates into battery and the M16 sear trip cut on the carrier pushes the "locking bar" forward and releases the trigger so that , since it is still under tension from the finger you did not let off on, the cycle repeats itself. The "reset" part really isnt the key to the whole thing. The locking bar is. Its a safety sear. Keeps the hammer from dropping until the bolt closes by way of automatic trigger release. I can think of 3 maybe 4 guns that have safety sears. The ATF truly frown on safety sears as the other function of them is as automatic sears with the right setup.

I get what youre saying. If you pull the trigger back all the way it would jam the gun. In practice its difficult if not impossible to do that because the trigger pushes your finger forward with a lot of force. If anything the trigger pushing your finger forward kind of makes you pull harder and when the trigger is released by the carrier it just fires again. Its possible to vary the speed it fires at by changing the amount of pull you put on the trigger. ( second video )

If you were to bolt the gun to a tree and lock the carrier back and wrap a rubber band around the trigger so that it pulled the trigger back and you were to push the bolt release it would run until the mag was emptied.

 

[Dan0311]

What happens is you pull the trigger and keep tension on the trigger. . The gun fires and the bolt goes back . The carrier pushes the hammer back and down and the trigger cams off the hammer and locks onto a rear sear that looks a lot like a drop in auto sear. RB calls it a locking bar. As the bolt goes forward the bolt rotates into battery and the M16 sear trip cut on the carrier pushes the "locking bar" forward and releases the trigger so that , since it is still under tension from the finger you did not let off on, the cycle repeats itself. The "reset" part really isnt the key to the whole thing. The locking bar is. Its a safety sear. Keeps the hammer from dropping until the bolt closes by way of automatic trigger release. I can think of 3 maybe 4 guns that have safety sears. The ATF truly frown on safety sears as the other function of them is as automatic sears with the right setup.

If you were to bolt the gun to a tree and lock the carrier back and wrap a rubber band around the trigger so that it pulled the trigger back and you were to push the bolt release it would run until the mag was emptied.

"...single function of the trigger"

The trigger IS resetting before every single shot, as with almost every semi-auto (albeit with more force). If the trigger is being actuated for each shot, I don't think it fits the ATF's definition of an Machinegun. Numerous 2A lawyers and several retired ATF agents who used to make these decisions also don't think it fits the definition. But yes, it "looks" scary.....and you can have full-auto but the gov't wants $200 and to know who owns it......so they'll make it fit......

 

[wired]

"...single function of the trigger"

The trigger IS resetting before every single shot, as with almost every semi-auto (albeit with more force). If the trigger is being actuated for each shot, I don't think it fits the ATF's definition of an Machinegun. Numerous 2A lawyers and several retired ATF agents who used to make these decisions also don't think it fits the definition. But yes, it "looks" scary.....and you can have full-auto but the gov't wants $200 and to know who owns it......so they'll make it fit......

Its going to come down to whether the judge hearing the case , if it ever gets to that , considers the pull of the trigger that is never released by the shooter, to be a single function of the trigger. Theres some mechanical stuff going on there but the shooters pull is never actually released. RB isnt doing very well in their legal work so far ( no matter what their paid experts say ) and I have a hard time seeing the next steps going very different for them.

 

[Dan0311]

Its going to come down to whether the judge hearing the case , if it ever gets to that , considers the pull of the trigger that is never released by the shooter, to be a single function of the trigger. Theres some mechanical stuff going on there but the shooters pull is never actually released. RB isnt doing very well in their legal work so far ( no matter what their paid experts say ) and I have a hard time seeing the next steps going very different for them.

Fair enough.

 

[GymB]

What happens is you pull the trigger and keep tension on the trigger.

I expect the case to go badly, but the trigger does move to reset and then move the the rear to fire. Is that really any different than the shooter allowing the trigger to reset and then pulling it again without having fully released it.

If you were to bolt the gun to a tree and lock the carrier back and wrap a rubber band around the trigger so that it pulled the trigger back and you were to push the bolt release it would run until the mag was emptied.

If you hold the trigger when you drop the bolt it will fire? That surprises me, didn’t expect it, thought that only happened with guns that fired from an open bolt.

 

[wired]

I expect the case to go badly, but the trigger does move to reset and then move the the rear to fire. Is that really any different than the shooter allowing the trigger to reset and then pulling it again without having fully released it.

Pretty much. The shooter releases the trigger out in the real world. In the FRT world the shooter doesnt release the trigger. It is done automatically and the trigger releases automatically. The shooter just applies tension to the trigger.

If you hold the trigger when you drop the bolt it will fire? That surprises me, didn’t expect it, thought that only happened with guns that fired from an open bolt.

Oh yes it most certainly does. Normal full auto closed bolt firing guns do too..

 

[mig1nc]

Yeah, but if you bump fire with a belt loop on your jeans you never release pressure either. You keep constant pressure and it just keeps firing.

I don't really see the constant pressure argument holding up here since the mechanical design, not what the shooter does, is under review.

Mechanically it just return and reset.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GeorgeBush]

What would need to be changed in a generic AR pistol after installing one of these to make it work?

I imagine a lot of the internals are not up to snuff.

 

[BigWaylon]

What would need to be changed in a generic AR pistol after installing one of these to make it work?

I imagine a lot of the internals are not up to snuff.

As far as I know, you just have to make sure it has a FA carrier. Possibly a heavier buffer…I think the FRT says that, but the WOT I supposed to run on a standard carbine buffer.

 

[GeorgeBush]

WOT?

I believe my upper came with what PSA calls a full-auto bolt carrier group. The lower has standard carbine buffer... is that gonna break something?

If you change it to the heavier one what happens to semi auto fire?

Sorry... noob.

 

[wired]

Yeah, but if you bump fire with a belt loop on your jeans you never release pressure either. You keep constant pressure and it just keeps firing.

I don't really see the constant pressure argument holding up here since the mechanical design, not what the shooter does, is under review.

Mechanically it just return and reset.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats not true at all. You fully release the trigger when you bumpfire using the old belt loop trick. The mechanical design is such that the shooter doesnt release tension. I understand the rationale but the ATF's position is that the shooter is not releasing trigger tension and the gun continues to fire. The shooter executes one trigger movement and the trigger itself is the automatic firing part.

You REALLY think Rare Breed will prevail? Really?