ATF New Dealer Rule-List of Exceptions?

commiecuriocollector

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466 pages of blather, and it keeps referring to this so called list of exceptions,


in See27 CFR 478.13(e).


As you can see those links go nowhere.

I cannot find this list anywhere. Can I get an assist here?


Btw an interesting note, even selling your guns TO an FFL ain't sacred. You might intend to make a profit, even though you don't.

"The Department agrees that a person should be able to rebut a presumption that they are engaged in the business of dealing in firearms requiring a license if the sales are occasionally only to an FFL or to a family member for lawful purposes. A person who only occasionally sells a firearm to a licensee is not likely to have a predominant intent to earn a profit because a licensee typically will offer less than a non-licensee for the firearm given the licensee’s intent to earn a profit through resale.193 The same reasoning applies to family members because the seller is less likely to have a predominant intent to earn a profit due to their pre-existing close personal relationship (i.e., a less than arms-length transaction). For this reason, the occasional sale of firearms to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes has been added to the non-exhaustive list of examples of evidence that may rebut any presumption. § 478.13(e)(3), (f). However, the Department is not excluding from the presumptions a person who engages in private sales that are facilitated by a licensee. Even though such sales are certainly allowed,194 a private seller likely intends to predominantly earn a profit from those arms-length sales even if the licensee requires a fee for the service of running a background check."

I really want to see this list of exceptions, § 478.13(e), because I haven't found anything yet that shows any safe way for you to ever sell a gun unless you are a dealer.

Only buy them.

One day they may regret having killed off the secondary market, by forcing everyone to keep everything they ever bought.

Only buy brand new guns. Keep them. And be pissed about it.

Smart thinking there slicky boys.
 
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Btw an interesting note, even selling your guns TO an FFL ain't sacred. You might intend to make a profit, even though you don't.
That’s not what the part you put in bold says…
 
What does it say?

EDIT: does anyone know where this list is?
The bold part is referencing a private sale that uses an FFL for the background check…not selling a firearm to an FFL.
 
The bold part is referencing a private sale that uses an FFL for the background check…not selling a firearm to an FFL.

FFLs will run a check on a person for a fee then? Without logging a firearm in, and then back out of their books? Cool. I didn't realize such a thing could be done that way. Thought it was limited to employee checks and gun sales. My bad.
 
FFLs will run a check on a person for a fee then? Without logging a firearm in, and then back out of their books? Cool. I didn't realize such a thing could be done that way. Thought it was limited to employee checks and gun sales. My bad.
I’ve never done it, but I’m assuming they’re logging it in and out. Yes there’s a fee.

But that’s what is happening when you see somebody post a firearm for sale in the classifieds here and they say “FFL transfer only”.
 
I’ve never done it, but I’m assuming they’re logging it in and out. Yes there’s a fee.

But that’s what is happening when you see somebody post a firearm for sale in the classifieds here and they say “FFL transfer only”.
Yes, and such a thing is not sacred when ATF considers whether you are a dealer now.

Background check, goes thru dealer, make a profit, or want to? You now are likely to need a FFL (sayeth the ATF).
 
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It’s in 478.13 (e) Conduct that does not support a presumption
 
466 pages of blather, and it keeps referring to this so called list of exceptions,


in See27 CFR 478.13(e).


As you can see those links go nowhere.

I cannot find this list anywhere. Can I get an assist here?

The document you were viewing reflects printed pages from the Federal Register that were converted to PDF format and the PDF was then shown in a container on a webpage. Links to locations within the document use relative references that are messed up in the multi-step conversion process. What you are looking for is section 27 CFR 478.13(e) in the Federal Register document of the Final Rule.

In the Final Rule as published in the Federal Register, §478.13 starts at the beginning of PDF page 124 and subsection (e) starts on the third line of PDF page 125.

(e) Conduct that does not support a presumption. A person shall not be presumed to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms when reliable evidence shows that the person is only reselling or otherwise transferring firearms—
(1) As bona fide gifts;
(2) Occasionally to obtain more valuable, desirable, or useful firearms for the person's personal collection;
(3) Occasionally to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes;
(4) To liquidate (without restocking) all or part of the person's personal collection; or
(5) To liquidate firearms—
(i) That are inherited; or
(ii) Pursuant to a court order; or
(6) To assist in liquidating firearms as an auctioneer when providing auction services on commission at an estate-type auction.

The above exceptions refer to presumptions in §478.13(d)(2). Subsection (d)(2) only applies to civil and administrative proceedings (for seizure or forfeiture of weapons) and not to criminal proceedings for dealing without a license.
 
The document you were viewing reflects printed pages from the Federal Register that were converted to PDF format and the PDF was then shown in a container on a webpage. Links to locations within the document use relative references that are messed up in the multi-step conversion process. What you are looking for is section 27 CFR 478.13(e) in the Federal Register document of the Final Rule.

In the Final Rule as published in the Federal Register, §478.13 starts at the beginning of PDF page 124 and subsection (e) starts on the third line of PDF page 125.



The above exceptions refer to presumptions in §478.13(d)(2). Subsection (d)(2) only applies to civil and administrative proceedings (for seizure or forfeiture of weapons) and not to criminal proceedings for dealing without a license.

Dang it, where were you an hour ago?

Thank you nonetheless, as that was exactly what I requested someone point me to.
 
Sorry, I assumed that your links were good and that you just hadn’t seen the right subsection.

Not a problem at all, you're not the only one who made mis-assumptions on all of this and it wouldn't have hurt if I had worded some things more precisely to avoid the confusion to begin with.
 
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