Automating water shutoff while away.

Frack N Cylons

Frack N Cylons

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I’ve been toying with an idea. Our neighborhood has that old gray poly crap for plumbing, and I’ve seen several neighbors have significant leaks and problems. I’ve had a couple of small leaks and I feel something major is inevitable. I have options, though.

A)I could repipe the house with pex. Not right now though as it would be involved and expensive.

B)Install one of the newer flow meters that learns water usage and alerts if something out of the ordinary happens. These usually have a valve and actuator that can shutoff the supply if you don’t respond to the app alert. I need to research these more but I’m not sold on the idea of having WiFi shit on my water pipes. Nor am I loving the idea of being tied to a service that might not be around in 5 years or all of a sudden start charging fees for access. As I said I need to do more reading.

C)Install leak detectors around the house and tie them into my existing alarm system. I installed and programmed the system so I can do this no problem. Downside is these are spot detectors. I could do rope around piping but damn I might as well repipe at that point. A spot detector is only going to sense if there is a buildup of water significant enough to reach the spot detector. Also, say there is a leak and it alerts me. Great. Now what?

D)Lastly, I’m toying with the idea of installing a relay module on my alarm system and programming it to close a valve ahead of the gate valve in my house. It would be programmed to shut if we alarm the system as away or if I install leak detectors, anytime one of those goes into alarm.

(A) won’t happen anytime soon.
(B) might happen, but I need to research more.
(D) with a little (C) thrown in seems easy, cheap, and good so strongly considering that route.

The controls and low voltage electrical I’ve got, that’s what I do to pay the bills. I would hire a plumber to install the control valve.

So here is my question:
The one thing I want to make sure of is my approach to shutting off the water every time we leave the house. Are there downsides I’m not seeing to having the water shutoff to the house while we are not home? We already don’t run the washing machine or dishwasher while we are out. What about the water heater? Does it care?
Any thing else you guys can think of I’m not seeing?
 
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Cheaper way is shutdown valve with about four low cost moisture detectors (low voltage) back to your alarm module that notifies you. Then you shutdown valve or have the module shut it down.
 
BlackGun said:
Cheaper way is shutdown valve with about four low cost moisture detectors (low voltage) back to your alarm module that notifies you. Then you shutdown valve or have the module shut it down.
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Yes, the leak detectors I would install would integrate to my alarm system and I would close the valve on this condition.

Im also considering shutting that valve whenever we are not at home. This significantly reduces the chances of a catastrophic event as the water would be shutoff roughly 1/3 of the day while we are gone. My question is what are the downsides of not having water to the house for this period.
 
Me. said:
Where to put them?


I also have those fittings that were part of a class action lawsuit ( http://www.plumbingfittingsettlement.com/ ).

I’ve replaced all the ones that are accessible, and the rest are just time-bombs inside the walls.

What would a moisture detector do? If a pipe blows in a wall upstairs, by the time the water reaches a moisture detector low in the house, a lot of damage would already be done.
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This is the dilemma. It prevents a bad situation from becoming reeeeeallly bad. Which is why I want to do more.
 
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frakncylons said:
What about the water heater? Does it care?

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It should only care if it sprung a leak and emptied and the heating element was still running.
 
Water heater be the only thing i could think of that would potentially care if you shut off water if your not using washer or dish washer when you leave which is good practice anyway. Some how if water heater was not full as you were leaving and shut water off or hot water pipe breaks guess you run risk of burning a element out. Guess you could wire a electrial contactor in for it to kill power to water heater but then you would need to wait for it to heat up each time if it was tank style. Just food for thought
 
So getting homeowners insurance isn’t an option?

You’ll never run the dish washer or washing machine while you’re away from the house?

I guess if I was committed to this I’d wire the valve to the alarm system so that it closes whenever you arm the system to “away”.
 
Another thought can you write simple plc logic or do relay logic since you do controls work? If so get small controller and use it to interface your control valve and relay for controls to water heater power and use a flow sensor and input from your alarm as inputs to the plc so you could say if your alarm is on and you see flow on the sensor turn off the valve and water heater.
 
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JimB said:
So getting homeowners insurance isn’t an option?

You’ll never run the dish washer or washing machine while you’re away from the house?

I guess if I was committed to this I’d wire the valve to the alarm system so that it closes whenever you arm the system to “away”.
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1)We have good insurance, but the cost of the work I’ve proposed is less than my deductible. Well worth it.

2)No, never.

3)100% agree.
 
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If you have an ice maker, you are going to want one at the refrigerator.
Ask me how I know this, it was not a pretty sight.
 
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Jp8819 said:
Water heater be the only thing i could think of that would potentially care if you shut off water if your not using washer or dish washer when you leave which is good practice anyway. Some how if water heater was not full as you were leaving and shut water off or hot water pipe breaks guess you run risk of burning a element out. Guess you could wire a electrial contactor in for it to kill power to water heater but then you would need to wait for it to heat up each time if it was tank style. Just food for thought
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This is my number 1 concern. It would be a little more work, but not too hard to put in an addition relay piloted from my alarm module to shutoff the water heater. Just not sure I want to go down that road.

I actually did shutoff the water heater today at 0700 while I sourced a PRV. I keep it set at 115degF and it was still pretty hot when I got home at 1600. I’m guessing I would start to feel this on my electric bill eventually.
 
Im getting ready to jump into OpenHAB for home automation. That shutoff controlmajigger sounds like a good feature to add!
 
Jp8819 said:
Another thought can you write simple plc logic or do relay logic since you do controls work? If so get small controller and use it to interface your control valve and relay for controls to water heater power and use a flow sensor and input from your alarm as inputs to the plc so you could say if your alarm is on and you see flow on the sensor turn off the valve and water heater.
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Could do this with leftovers from work, but I don’t want to have to leave an O&M manual for the next homeowner. When we sell the house, I want it to be as simple as pulling a wire or two on the relay module to disable the entire system.
 
Me. said:
You do that every time you leave the house?!
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Nope....more than a day or two leave.

Otherwise there is a lot of coming and going and someone would notice. Leak detectors are great, they let you know your crap is getting ruined and that if you're far away there's nothing you can do about it...LOL
 
Hey all, I pulled this one off of the back burner.

I’ve figured out how to program my alarm system to do what I want. I have a plan to get 24vac down to my valve in the crawl space, and I have my relay pulling in when it should. All good on the controls side.

I am going to choose a normally open spring return valve for a few reasons. If we lose power, I still want to have water. If the alarm panel malfunctions, I want to have water. If the next homeowner never wants to use the system, I want them to have water. Etc. The goal here at the moment is to just protect the house while I’m gone. Now that I have the programming figured out, I may add leak detectors but that is down the road. Anyway, if I choose to go to normally closed it’s just a matter of flipping the actuator and then rewiring my relays.

In my world, when I’m choosing valves, the actual installation of said valve falls to the mechanical contractor. I’ll pick one with the correct controls, line size, flow and cv, and they handle the installation. So here is where I need help.

I need to figure out how to get the female threads to interface with the gray polybutylene (not PEX) garbage that I have in my house. I need to double check my line size, but it looks like it will be 1/2” npt to 1/2” polybutylene. I could grab a 3/4” valve if that makes life easier with an adapter. Also, what is DN15/DN20 referring to? I thought NPT is NPT end of story.

I’m not opposed to calling the man if I’m going to need a bunch of crimpers and single use tools and stuff. I’d also like to avoid flooding my basement.

Any advice on valve installation?
 
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