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BCM 6000 rounds without preventive maintenance

Discussion in 'AR Pattern Rifles' started by Zbizzle911, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. Zbizzle911

    Zbizzle911 Charter Freedom Lover Charter Member Supporting Member

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    MAC is running a BCM factory rifle until it malfunctions. He's currently at 6000 rounds with no preventive maintenance. Pretty good video series. I love my BCM mid length and this only adds to my confidence in it. Thought you gents would like it.
     
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  2. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    What's preventative maintenance? Like no oil? No wipe down?
     
  3. Zbizzle911

    Zbizzle911 Charter Freedom Lover Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Yeah. When he got the rifle he took it down and wiped everything with CLP, put it back together and hasn't done anything since. He's firing 150 rounds then cooling the barrel and so on. He usually does 1k rounds in a day.
     
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  4. WadeWatts

    WadeWatts Shameless Glock Fanboy

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    Bcm is one of those things that are worth the money
     
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  5. Love2shoot

    Love2shoot Stay Gray

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    I been following this since he started it, cant wait to see the count where it hiccups. I really want a DD but after this would have no issues running BCM either.
     
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  6. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    Is it? I mean, it's mil-spec right? Proper spec and consistent, sure, but still just mil-spec. I learned long ago that parts ain't parts. Hard lesson... I wouldn't put a PTAC kit gun up with a Daniel Defense and say it's the same, but is that DD much better than a S&W M&P15? I don't know...

    So serious question... Other than the operator guys on M4carbine sucking them off for the last decade and a half what makes BCM special?
     
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  7. Zbizzle911

    Zbizzle911 Charter Freedom Lover Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Consistency in quality is what I see as their +. I mean I’m sure there’s bcm rifles that have problems but when’s the last time you heard about one?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    I think BCM just did a really good job marketing the reliability of their components. Early on they were able to get some big names (that shoot lots of rounds) behind their products. It really helped boost their image.
     
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  9. TRaGiK

    TRaGiK Member

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    I'd say it is worth it. It's mostly milspec, plus a slightly better trigger.

    I paid right at $1k for my Colt 6920 a year ago. Add a BCM rail (which I happen to like), and that's $200. Changing out the stock and grip is another $75ish. If you don't want to install the rail yourself and pay someone else to do it, that's more money. Swap out the milspec trigger for something like the ALG and that's another $70. So over $1300.

    I just bought a BCM Recce 16, and it was $1300.

    I don't think the BCM is any more reliable than my colt, but I don't think it's a bad value either.
     
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  10. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    BCM (and others) have a good QA/QC process; therefore, few turds pass through. Some do, but not many. And when they do, they make it right. @bigfelipe , some are mil-spec, but the quality and consistency is what sets them apart. Also what @chrishf12 said, when you get big gun guys who made careers running M4s endorse the product, it carries weight.
     
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  11. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    I've actually always heard their customer service is crap. And their barrels(non-chf) can't hold 4 moa. But they run. I think 15 years ago they had something. Now the market is saturated with quality mil-spec for much less. I think they hurt their brand going all-in on keymod too, but that's moot to this conversation.

    Brand name seems to be what you are buying now...
     
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  12. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    That's not been my experience, owning...well, a bunch. Not my experience, either, running them in classes. I would be interested to hear what others have to say. I sold my DDs (2) to get BCM, but they are same-same. I just wanted the consistency.

    I don't think they are the 'end all-be all' but put them with Colt, DD, a couple others as far as quality and reliability.

    I totes agree re: keymod. I never liked keymod (but know it works just fine).
     
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  13. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Just my opinion. I am not an expert:

    Coming from more of a competition interest in AR's/guns, when I see shooters (either competitive Ken or tactical Timmy) marketing a product, the very first thing I wonder is if they are paying for product. And, are they being paid to use product. That includes in their training videos, etc.
    I've seen big names marketing a 3400$ forged milspec carbine. I certainly am not going to buy it because Travis Costa AKThumb has one. I doubt they were dumb enough to pay for it. So it's important to consider this.

    I'd feel confident carrying a BCM/DD factory rifle. They are good factory rifles. No doubt. If you just want to drop a little more of your money and get something good that you can depend on, these are good choices. They are the Honda Civics of AR's. Which is a compliment and exactly what most people need.
    I personally feel the DD is a step up from the BCM. The DD I have shot and handled are very nice guns, imo. Whereas, I haven't been particularly impressed with any of the BCM products I have had. Including a barrel and a complete lower. Just seemed to be basic milspec to me. Barrel was outperformed by a 100$ BA. But, I have seen BCM barrels that were better, so they aren't all turds. To be fair, I've had equally expensive barrels that sucked.

    Colt: wouldn't even consider it. If they made a 16" lightweight middy with Mlok rail for around a G, I might consider one. I'd rather have the above rifles with these small features. The only Colt rifles I have liked were the Colt Competition rifles. But they were made by someone else. A Colt carbine is the kind of gun you buy 100,000 for at a good price to outfit yer Army. And thats a compliment, too. Just not what I want or need. I'd change too many things and I'd be left with an overpriced lower and a bunch of parts. Not saying it is crap, just saying for my uses, much better can be had for less.

    I'd take an Aero precision rifle over any of these. I just think they have a nicer product for the money. When I see a basic rough Colt lower that costs 2.5X what an Aero M4E1 lower costs, I can only shake my head in wonder. The M4E1 is nicer in every way. It just is. I've seen the Aero basic 16" mid carbine without stock or handguard for under 500$. Add rail and stock and you'll have enough left over for decent optic and mags.

    The thing I most like about AR's is that I can pick every part down to the pins. I know now exactly what I want and what works well for me. But that came at a cost of a lot of time and tinkering and testing. So, I'll never buy another factory rifle. Well, until I can afford a JP!

    At the end of the day, it's a good time to buy AR's and it's hard to lose. All the rifles mentioned will do the job and send bullets.
     
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  14. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    I agree with @Chuckman and @NKD statements.

    To understand BCM, you have to look at the AR market from 10-15 years ago versus the current market.

    BCM was built 10-15 years ago on milspec quality and reliability. They guaranteed those claims with extra QC/QA inspections and tests. They didn't market the newest wiz bang features because 10-15 years ago everyone wanted Mil-spec and nothing else. People didn't trust anything that had not been proven. There was a "Colt tax" for anything with the Colt name on it and still is to an extent.

    Look at the market now, milspec is boring. Everyone wants the new innovative, cool products, or the uber cheap boring milspec. People aren't scared to try the new parts and spend big bucks or replace cheap broken parts.

    Companies offering cheap parts usually skimp (selective batch test) or even skip the QA tests all together. This saves money and causes a higher failure rate of their parts.

    So yes! There are parts on the market now that are cheaper parts than BCM, and there are parts that out perform BCM. But they still have their reliability brand that doesn't require hours of research and tools for someone to plan and build their own rifle.

    It is all in the purpose that you define for yourself and what you are looking to do with the rifle.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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  15. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    So...like every 5.56 (and my 6.8) AR I own? :oops:
     
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  16. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    I'd like to know what the specs are on the barrel and bolt. Video won't run thru the firewall at work.

    If it's just a plain phosphate bolt and CL barrel I'd be very impressed as well. QPQ Nitride on either or both of those parts would be what I am guessing. It's a "game changa" in the AR world (firearms world isn't a stretch)
     
  17. TRaGiK

    TRaGiK Member

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    https://shop.bravocompanymfg.com/BC...Bronze-Cerakote-p/bcm-carbine-750-790-brz.htm

    Chrome lined and phosphate.
     
  18. Sigequinox220

    Sigequinox220 Active Member Benefactor

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    Honestly not super familiar w/ BCM brand...but generally, when it comes to mass produced, std spec products, higher end brands have higher quality control standards. That often means both higher quality built INTO the process, and more stringent rejection protocols. Really up to the consumer unless proper studies have been done as to whether the quality impacts the product reliability.

    An n-of-1 isn't too informative. MAC should at least be running this experiment in parallel w/ a budget rifle. then there is at least a control. a study would do this with maybe 15 or more BCM rifles and a few more in control group.

    That being said, I did see a study not too long ago that did what I describe above, but I forget what it was testing (I think ballistics of different barrel lengths). Many larger manufacturers have conducted these studies as part of their product development pipeline, but they generally dont publish. I assume the information has more value to them as competitive intelligence than it does as marketing validity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  19. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    I'd love to see a PSA freedom, PSA premium, LMT, Colt, etc. lined up in this test.
     
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  20. Sigequinox220

    Sigequinox220 Active Member Benefactor

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    Highly doubt you will come across commercial brand line ups like that, but probably a colt vs some others in military studies.

    That also makes me realize, the military probably has well done 'round count/malfunction' testing done for those who are skilled at delving into the bowls of .gov websites.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  21. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    We have enough people on this forum where it could be done. A variety of ARs, from the S&W MP15 all the way to KAC or Noveske.
     
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  22. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    We would need a large ammo donation!
     
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  23. JRHorne

    JRHorne Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I'll chime in tomorrow when I'm at my desktop so I can type more, but I've owned a lot of the major brands and currently have full rifles from Aero, BCM, Colt, Noveske, PWS and complete uppers or lowers from Colt, DD, LMT, and a few others. I've also built uppers and lowers from components from all the above brand plus PSA, BA, Faxon, and pretty much every other major brand save KAC and Barnes.

    I'd argue that most of the quality components are better than Milspec in that more attention is given to the QA/QC process. The Colt LE6920 (of which I have 4 right now) is Milspec. I'd take a BCM over them all day. I'd take a complete Aero over them if I wanted a range toy or even a nicer carbine to train with and then defend myself. The Colt is what it is: the minimum the government is willing to pay per unit for something that fits their definition of "good enough". The 4 that I own are investments more than anything special or any gun I'd plan to identify as my "go to" gun. Democrats win Congress and the Presidency and I have 4 guns that then become worth their weight in gold. What guns do I tweak and new platforms do I build on? Ambi lowers from PWS or LMT. Upper parts from BCM, LMT, Noveske, DD, etc. Barrels from BCM, BA, Faxon, Noveske (if on sale), LMT, etc.

    In my opinion, BCM represents peak value in their complete uppers and rifles and did for a while when DD refused to drop prices and LMT was scarce. Hard to get their level of performance, QA/QC for the price, or it was. Now DD and LMT have got their game together and they align closer to that BCM value.

    To respond to @NKD Dave's point about who promotes them and who they pay to promote them, those guys make a living on their name and reputation. If BCM was trash, the payout would have to be so large all at once that the guy would be fine promoting a trash brand for a bit until people determined they were trash and stopped using them. Do we think LAV and Costa and the others made more from BCM/DD whoever in a year than they did charging mall ninjas like me $1,200 a person for a 2 day carbine class? I know which one I bet they made more on.... Point is, their brand and reputation is everything and they wouldn't let a trash company pay them if they wanted to survive.

    Buy BCM if you like it. Or Aero. Or PSA. Or Noveske. Or a mother loving AK. Just keep buying guns and shooting the sh!t out of them!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  24. MikeDawg46L

    MikeDawg46L Pimpin' ain't easy

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    Didn’t someone, as in one of the HSLD instructors out there like Mac or Vickers, run a few BCMs in their classes (as loaner/rented guns for students) and didn’t clean or do anything but shoot a little oil on the bolt for 10’s of thousands of rounds? I remember seeing that a few years back.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  25. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    @JRHorne I largely agree with everything you posted above. I would respectfully point out regarding your comment "I'd argue that most of the quality components are better than Milspec in that more attention is given to the QA/QC process......", I read this a couple different ways. If a part isn't mil-spec, it's not going to fit a mil-spec weapon, as part of being "mil-spec" is just that, sizing and specifications. But I agree that the quality of the parts (of reputable manufacturers) often exceed the quality of crap parts, even if all of them are mil-spec. To your point, this is in manufacturing and the QA/QC process.

    I also want to point out something you mentioned as key, which is the minimum per unit cost. I can't recall what the M4 cost is per unit, but it's pennies on the dollar, comparatively. Bulk sales will do that. A PD can get purchase Glocks for $200 and change. It doesn't make them 'cheap' (as is often interpreted), it makes them inexpensive. Also, the DOD's criteria for "good enough" is actually pretty rigorous, again comparatively. We (civilians) will likely never, ever shoot a M4 to the DOD's "good enough" standard for breakage.

    Great thread.
     
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  26. USMC6094

    USMC6094 Schnitzengruben

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    There was a BCM gun that had a LOT more than 6 grand down the pipe better than a decade ago that was still going strong at near TEN THOUSAND rounds with the minimum of maintenance.......

    This guy's not doing anything original here
     
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  27. JRHorne

    JRHorne Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Yup, you and I are saying the same thing with regard to Milspec. Milspec is a set of dimensional and materials specifications, driven from a functional or performance requirement. So in my opinion, something better than Milspec has both better tolerances (flick a BCM selector vs a standard Milspec one) as well as better quality, finish. For example, the specs of the selector detent spring: is the most important spec a length, a level of pressure applied to the detent, the material? Obviously all of it. So take small variations or subpar materials in that one part, then apply it across every part. So every part may be within spec for Milspec designation, but imagine taking the entire system and optimizing it so that each part has less variation and is made of better materials in a way where everything functions better.

    Now, that definition of "better" is what we're discussing, both in that does "better matter" and then what should or would you pay for "better"? That's a question only the individual can answer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  28. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    I think some of us are questioning the "less variation and better materials" aspect as well as the "better" aspect.

    Better than an M&P sport? Better than anything in it's price range? Two different takes. I'd agree on first and not on second.