BOHICA - Another high school shooting

berf said:
ADHD is made up. Everyone’s mind wanders when they don’t give a shit about what they are learning/doing. It’s a pharmaceutical scam.
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I'll go 90-10. But not 100%. It is overused and overprescribed but I have dealt with kids where meds made a night and day difference. They were the exception though.
 
berf said:
ADHD is made up. Everyone’s mind wanders when they don’t give a shit about what they are learning/doing. It’s a pharmaceutical scam.
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Years ago, the woman that was our dentist, had a VERY INTELLIGENT SON. On the order of teaching himself how to read at age 5 and studying college chemistry and physics texts by age 10.

He did Poorly in school.
 
chiefjason said:
Ha! It's worse than that IMO. You may already know this. There are 1000's of questions, symptoms, and behaviors that lead someone to diagnose ADD/ADHD. AFAIK there are zero tests to confirm that hypothesis. There are also no tests to know which drug to prescribe, how much, how often, when to administer, etc. That is all done by trial and error.

I helped get dozens of ADD, ADHD, OCD, ODD kids off meds. It was rare that one had to stay on them, but it did happen. Most times it was lack of structure and discipline that came out as a behavioral issue that got diagnosed as a mental health problem. It was our job to put the structure and discipline back in their lives. Sometimes it worked out. Sometimes it didn't. Free will and all. The kid always gets a say.

But over 6 years I would put just a handful of kids in the legit mental health category. I'd put most in the poor parenting, poor peer choices, and lazy categories. When you get kids where the pills are not working, then the pills are not the answer.
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Thats what I was getting at. My youngest was diagnosed, by the females in the family, early on as being ADD. so of course the wife needed actual Drs. diagnosis.

We made the appointment for the test. The day of the test I arrived later that the wife and kid so I got to fill out my questionnaire after the Dr had read my wife's questionnaire. The Dr finished her tests with my kid, came out , read over my questionnaire, and literally said "oh, wonderful. Before reading your answers I was going to diagnose your kid with ADHD, with specific xxx and yyy sud type. After reading your responses, I think he has just ADHD with no specific subtype ". Right then and there i determined that ADHD is more about peoples perception than a reality.

My son was around 4 when we got that diagnosed and I fought to keep him off the drugs. He started kindergarten and he did have trouble learning, simple stuff like memorizing the ABCs were very difficult for him. He came home one day and while we were working on his homework he told me that he felt dumb and not as smart as the other kids. We decided to give the medz a try. They did help, a lot.

Each year at his annual physical check up, his primary dr would ask how things are going with school and each year the wife would tell him that our son seemed to be struggling with his school work. Each year they would increase his dosage. This would always cause a lot of arguments between me and the wife.

I developed a plan, when he was in the 4th grade I basically forbid them to increase his dosage. He was a straight A,B student at the time. I knew he was about to hit puberty and start having growth spurts. So my plan was to basically keep him on the same dosage level and let him grow and titrate the effects of the meds. Dosage is based on weight, I figure if he doubles his weight, then the med dosage is halfed. Plus as he was growing and the effects were lessened slowly, he would start learning how to learn and adapt to life and work slowly weaning off the meds.

I got the wife to agree to this with the caveat that if his grades got in the C, D range we would up the dose.

By the end of his 6th grade year he had more than doubled in weight, he was a straight A student and was inducted into Jr Beta club. During wis annual physical with the primary dr, we told the Dr that we wanted him off the meds. The Dr looked at everything thing and said that with the dosage he was on and the weight he was at that the dosage level was technically safe enough that he could stop cold turkey, but the Dr would feel safer if we wiened him off over the course of two weeks. So we followed his advice.

My son has been off the drugs for 2 years now and is still an A, B student.
 
cold1 said:
Thats what I was getting at. My youngest was diagnosed, by the females in the family, early on as being ADD.
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This point came up talking to my daughter last night. Women have taken a larger role in schools. Girls, behaviorally, usually do well in a classroom setting. Boys tend to struggle. The feminization of boys is not just in making them do things, it's also in expecting them to "act like the other students" when a lot of those students are girls. Then you "take away recess and free time to focus on class work." You further drive the school system to a place that's acceptable to girls but is further from what boys need during the day. They need to move, work, play; break up the sitting around in a class. It's not surprising that everyone pushing for meds in your scenario seems to be female.

Good job getting in there and being involved. And glad to hear it made a positive difference and you worked him through it.

Now, step back and imagine you were not around. Imagine how that would have changed the treatment style and course. Then look around the classrooms in schools and start to realize how many of their fathers are not around to advocate for them and to provide the structure and discipline that child needs from a father.

My oldest daughter had some teacher concern in elementary school. It all revolved around school performance, not behavior. Some we ignored, mostly the diagnosis stuff. Some we accepted. I was a participant in all of it and actually assisted in writing her IEP because I had written them before and knew how to manipulate them to get the outcome we wanted. She's now a junior in college majoring in computer science. And one of the idiot teachers calling for a diagnosis told up she would never do better and would always be behind because of some stupid "learning curve". We had to fight the damage that caused for years. My daughter entered college into WCU's Honors College. So much for the Laffer Curve.
 
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the parents attorney said at the parents arraignment hearing that the gun was locked. I'm calling BS on her. Here's why:
1. If the gun was locked, how did he get access to it.
and
2. how did he kill 4 kids,injure 12 other people if the gun was locked.

These are the two burning questions I have.

the 4 firearms I own have one thing in common when sitting in their cases in the safe (one commonality) is a trigger lock that can only be removed with a key.
also i leave them unloaded,no round in the chamber, and I dleave the magazines out of the firearm.
 
brasskickinmonkey said:
the parents attorney said at the parents arraignment hearing that the gun was locked. I'm calling BS on her. Here's why:
1. If the gun was locked, how did he get access to it.
and
2. how did he kill 4 kids,injure 12 other people if the gun was locked.

These are the two burning questions I have.

the 4 firearms I own have one thing in common when sitting in their cases in the safe (one commonality) is a trigger lock that can only be removed with a key.
also i leave them unloaded,no round in the chamber, and I dleave the magazines out of the firearm.
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Several options.

Kid saw the code before a range trip.
Kid found the code written down somewhere.
Kid had access "for emergencies".
Parents are lying.
 
they’re discussing this on NPR.

incredible how they are trying to make The ammunition search so damning. that and suggesting that taking the kid to the gun range was wrong. obviously if it comes out the kid was having mental problems and the parents knew about that would change my view.

if we got red flagged every time we searched for ammo or went to the range everybody on this form would be in handcuffs

The total lack of perspective from the Talking Heads is pretty ridiculous

I think everything that happened during/after the parent teacher meeting with the drawings watch where things went off the rails.
 
ChickenHawk said:
Key could have been on a key ring.
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If he had the key ring to a "red SUV" I guess everyone would have forgotten all about it by now instead of stalking everyone remotley related, staking-out the crime scene 24/7, imagining and even charging people with crimes that aren't on the books, and manufacturing new Federal Laws that will imperil Liberty but save no lives.
 
vp9c said:
The total lack of perspective from the Talking Heads is pretty ridiculous
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That's because they're largely a mouth piece for the groups that only want guns in the hands of the govt.'s troops, which is one of the key features of every totalitarian state to have ever existed.
 
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So, I'm reading about a couple of parents suing the school district.

Their lawyer, a Mr. Geoffrey Fieger, is giving a statement, and I was pretty much going along with it, until I hit this nugget;

"There’s certainly responsibility here," Fieger said. "It’s time that we stop giving lip service to all of this, and we hold people responsible. If we’re not going to hold the Second Amendment people responsible for gunning down our students over the last 20 years, and we’re going to do nothing in that regard, let’s hold the other people responsible."
 
kcult said:
Their lawyer, a Mr. Geoffrey Fieger, is giving a statement, and I was pretty much going along with it, until I hit this nugget;

"There’s certainly responsibility here," Fieger said. "It’s time that we stop giving lip service to all of this, and we hold people responsible. If we’re not going to hold the Second Amendment people responsible for gunning down our students over the last 20 years, and we’re going to do nothing in that regard, let’s hold the other people responsible."
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that lawyer has been famous for about 30 years since he worked with "dr death" jack kevorkian
it's very rare that he's not a complete bag of crap.
He'll take any case that gets him a lot of publicity.
 
I was just reading up on one of the MI gun rights 501c3 forums I'm still part of. They produced a "please lock up your guns when not in use, if you need a gun lock, we'll give you one" public service announcement they've been trying to pass around for a while now.
suddenly it's getting rejected on the grounds of tragedy-based-advertising. yup, "ask us to give you gun safety equipment for free" is now objectionable.

some of the reps up there are also rolling out a wave of new anti-gun bills, like making it a crime to have unlocked guns in your house... screw heller and other such major decisions.
but profiting from tragedy in THAT way is totally cool, right?
 
kcult said:
So, I'm reading about a couple of parents suing the school district.

Their lawyer, a Mr. Geoffrey Fieger, is giving a statement, and I was pretty much going along with it, until I hit this nugget;

"There’s certainly responsibility here," Fieger said. "It’s time that we stop giving lip service to all of this, and we hold people responsible. If we’re not going to hold the Second Amendment people responsible for gunning down our students over the last 20 years, and we’re going to do nothing in that regard, let’s hold the other people responsible."
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I honestly agree with this statement. Let me explain.

"here’s certainly responsibility here," Fieger said. "It’s time that we stop giving lip service to all of this, and we hold people responsible."

Personal responsibility is the key to all of this. If a minor steals a gun from an adult, and if the adult did not secure the firearm, they should be held to some level of responsibility.

If we’re not going to hold the Second Amendment people responsible for gunning down our students over the last 20 years, and we’re going to do nothing in that regard, let’s hold the other people responsible."

I am one of the "Second Amendment people" as stated, I am responsible with my firearms and none of them have ever been taken and used illegally. So why should I be held accountable and punished for "gunning down our students over the last 20 years" when I had nothing to o with the crime?

So yes, the people directly responsible should be charged. They should start with the video game industry and let that multi-billion dollar industry set legal standards that the gun industry does not have the funding for.
 
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JBoyette said:
I honestly agree with this statement. Let me explain.

"here’s certainly responsibility here," Fieger said. "It’s time that we stop giving lip service to all of this, and we hold people responsible."

Personal responsibility is the key to all of this. If a minor steals a gun from an adult, and if the adult did not secure the firearm, they should be held to some level of responsibility.

If we’re not going to hold the Second Amendment people responsible for gunning down our students over the last 20 years, and we’re going to do nothing in that regard, let’s hold the other people responsible."

I am one of the "Second Amendment people" as stated, I am responsible with my firearms and none of them have ever been taken and used illegally. So why should I be held for "gunning down our students over the last 20 years"

So yes, the people directly responsible should be charged. They should start with the video game industry.
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The video game industry? That's ridiculous. Parenting is the problem.
 
JBoyette said:
So yes, the people directly responsible should be charged. They should start with the video game industry and let that multi-billion dollar industry set legal standards that the gun industry does not have the funding for.
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No
I've been gaming since the tandy trs80 and the ibm 8086 were about the best gaming experiences out there
I was gaming in bed last night.
Probably every dude under 50-60 has some experience playing "violent" games, and lots of dudes over. you're saying we're all killers waiting to snap?
 
DrScaryGuy said:
No
I've been gaming since the tandy trs80 and the ibm 8086 were about the best gaming experiences out there
I was gaming in bed last night.
Probably every dude under 50-60 has some experience playing "violent" games, and lots of dudes over. you're saying we're all killers waiting to snap?
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Yes.

It's been proven in trial and communicated in this very case, that video games can lead to volent acts by children.

Video games have a much higher culpability that the gun Industry has in school shootings.
 
JBoyette said:
Yes.

It's been proven in trial and communicated in this very case, that video games can lead to volent acts by children.

Video games have a much higher culpability that the gun Industry has in school shootings.
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I'm like the poster above, been playing since the Commodore 64. Can you show me a credible study that links video games with violent children?
 
The Last Outlaw said:
I'm like the poster above, been playing since the Commodore 64. Can you show me a credible study that links video games with violent children?
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Well with that logic sir, I should be a death machine. Been shooting guns since I was 19, now 44. Carried Professionally for 19 of the 25 years.

But to your request, read the book.

Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill: A Call to Action Against TV, Movie & Video Game Violence​

 
JBoyette said:
Well with that logic sir, I should be a death machine. Been shooting guns since I was 19, now 44. Carried Professionally for 19 of the 25 years.

But to your request, read the book.

Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill: A Call to Action Against TV, Movie & Video Game Violence​

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I have been playing "violent" video games for over forty years, know plenty of guys who have been playing that long, my son is 14, he plays with me. Blaming the games is just lazy. Same as when they used to blame movies and tv. It is a cop out for lazy parenting.

As far as that book goes, I'll see if I can find it, and I'll read it. Don't think it will change my mind, seen plenty of things that blame anything but the parents, I'll bet this is the same.
 
The Last Outlaw said:
I have been playing "violent" video games for over forty years, know plenty of guys who have been playing that long, my son is 14, he plays with me. Blaming the games is just lazy. Same as when they used to blame movies and tv. It is a cop out for lazy parenting.

As far as that book goes, I'll see if I can find it, and I'll read it. Don't think it will change my mind, seen plenty of things that blame anything but the parents, I'll bet this is the same.
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I agree with you 100%. This is why I wrote above:

"They should start with the video game industry and let that multi-billion dollar industry set legal standards that the gun industry does not have the funding for."

Meaning, prove its the free will of the sane or delusion of mental health.

Man, you guys are touchy.
 
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I won’t discount the video game angle, but because of the different level of immersion and social connections from playing now vs. when I was young. I see something similar in the immersion into LGBT sexuality now vs. even 5 years ago.
 
Everyone is wired differently (I know that is a ground shaking revelation for most of us).In this day and age you can go out and find positive reinforcement in the form of a study to support whatever you believe ( vax vs no vax, video game related violence causation vs no causation, hell are eggs healthy or bad for you).

One thing I do think is that a greater number of children today exhibit antisocial behaviors not seen in previous generations. What is the cause of this? I don’t know. Neglect or abuse from parents/parent, over medicated, video games, movies, music, other technologies -all are possible variables and all are worthy of consideration in any given instance.

Variables make all the difference. Your empty hand for the most part is not deadly. An empty gun for the most part is not deadly. A bullet sitting in a box for the most part is not deadly. You put the bullet in the gun and place the gun in your hand and you have a deadly combination. Variables add up to total sums and in our ever changing world there will only be more variables added to the equation.

Kids today are bombarded with more information and stimuli at earlier ages than ever before. Who knows what gets in and what does not and how it affects them? IMO one of the biggest variables in today’s world is that kids are being taught what to think instead of how to think.
 
2A has been around 2.5x longer than Public Education. 2A is important enough to be in our Constitution. Public Education is not.

2A is still working mostly as intended. Public Education has been failing for 50% of it's existence. IMO it's run it's course and is now irreparable, but
if y'all want to mess with what's become a taxpayer-funded babysitting/kiddo-warehousing service, make some non-gun-rights-related proposals and have at it. The failure of public education should have nothing to do with 2A though.
 
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JBoyette said:
Well with that logic sir, I should be a death machine. Been shooting guns since I was 19, now 44. Carried Professionally for 19 of the 25 years.

But to your request, read the book.

Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill: A Call to Action Against TV, Movie & Video Game Violence​

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Dude.... You seem to always do this. At least in my opinion.

You will disagree about an opinion another member has on a topic. Usually a reasonable statement that could be argued as to why. I become interested to hear the reasoning for your disagreement. Knowing your background shared over the years. Then you do something like this....

Your retort makes no sense. You ARE a "death machine". It's your career after all. But it's your personal MORALITY that keeps you from using your skills gained over "19 of 25 years" to not constantly be killing for whatever reason.



That's the BS of "blame the violence of media available to kids"(video games).

Children not being taught MORALS is a problem. A severe one. Knowing right from wrong from early childhood is how to create good adults in the world. The above posters are saying just that. Violent games or movies or whatever are no different than the violence of reality in truth. It's how we were/are raised to understand the world around us that truly matters.
 
Aardvark said:
2A has been around 2.5x longer than Public Education.
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Fake news. I hate to be the “well actually” guy but here it goes…

Apr 23, 1635 Boston Latin School opens. First public school and still in operation today.

Dec 11, 1789 University of North Carolina opens. First public university and still in operation today.

Dec 15, 1791 2nd Amendment ratified and still in operation today.

I have a problem with the public school system as it exist today and I damn sure have issues with what UNC is pumping out today but dems de facts…Go Pack!!!!
 
Glocker said:
Fake news. I hate to be the “well actually” guy but here it goes…

Apr 23, 1635 Boston Latin School opens. First public school and still in operation today.

Dec 11, 1789 University of North Carolina opens. First public university and still in operation today.

Dec 15, 1791 2nd Amendment ratified and still in operation today.

I have a problem with the public school system as it exist today and I damn sure have issues with what UNC is pumping out today but dems de facts…Go Pack!!!!
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I should have been more precise. Universal madatory public education started in the USA in the 1920s.
 
I'd say more parents spending more and more time out of the home and not being involved with their kids is the biggest sort of blame. Is it any wonder that society seems to have been in decline since parents, both of them, spend more time away from their kids and there is less time in church. I think one thing can be coped with, but taking both of them away takes away almost all structure from a kids life and all they have left is public school which can be questionable nowadays in a lot of areas.
 
JBoyette said:
Yes.

It's been proven in trial and communicated in this very case, that video games can lead to volent acts by children.

Video games have a much higher culpability that the gun Industry has in school shootings.
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That's actually a pretty weak accusation. 🙂 Just about anything can lead to anything.

My son and his friends grew up playing FPS games with me, and at 33 he still plays them, like millions of others. I expect that as a percentage the number of kids that play these things that go on to do something violent with a gun is hardly even measurable.

IMO some people just should just never have a gun like some people should never drive. Unfortunately it's not always clear who until something bad happens. So always give people the means to defend themselves, and always drive defensively.
 
Glocker said:
Flashpoint said:
I expect that as a percentage the number of kids that play these things that go on to do something violent with a gun is hardly even measurable.
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I’d be willing to bet all I have that those families that had to put their children in the ground last week could put some measure on it.

Like I said above people are wired different and there are all kinds of variables that could lead to such outcomes but I think to flippantly dismiss the possibility under the guise “I do it and my kid does it and we’re fine” is also pretty weak.
 
Aardvark said:
Scapegoating and blame-shifting societal problems onto video games seems quite a stretch to me.
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And in my opinion to not acknowledge the possibility of such influence is naive at best.We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

“Half of the people can be part right all of the time.

Some of the people can be all right part of the time.

But all of the people can’t be all right all of the time.

I think Abraham Lincoln said that.

I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours.

I said that.”
Talking World War III Blues
Bob Dylan

Cheers!!!
 
Video games are media.
Advertising is media.

Companies do not spend billions of dollars on advertising media because it does not work. It works. And it works well. Better with some than others. But they know they can drive decision making behavior and social behavior with media.

"Guys have been playing violent video games for 30 years" Yeah, then the above is working as intended. And pretty well on some of you guys. Maybe you enjoy it. But that's the point. They introduce the stimuli into the games to get the physical and mental response to keep you coming back for 30 years.

You don't think that kind of strong physical and mental stimuli can push other people in very different directions?

Add lack of parenting, lack of social skills, lack of success in school, lack of success with the opposite sex, being medicated, possible mental health issues; it's a bowl full of crap that eventually spills over onto those around them.

In the same way we think guns should be kept from kids like this, maybe it's time to talk about keeping them off these games too. And not just a sticker. I"m not sure how serious parents take those things these days anyway. Because there are studies that show that people addicted to these games have very different brain activity than normal folks. And even normal gamers have increased activity in areas similar to gambling.
 
The facts are the facts. The numbers are the numbers, and they don't show that this is a problem.

I would agree that it's worth looking into why wanton gun violence in video games and movies may lead to this outcome in some extremely rare cases/individuals, but keep in mind what a miniscule percentage it is of a freedom many enjoy. Any solution should be aimed to address that rarity and not infringe upon that freedom.

I have a hard time distinguishing some of the anti gun logic with that used here to demonize video games.
 
chiefjason said:
Video games are media.
Advertising is media.

Companies do not spend billions of dollars on advertising media because it does not work. It works. And it works well. Better with some than others. But they know they can drive decision making behavior and social behavior with media.

"Guys have been playing violent video games for 30 years" Yeah, then the above is working as intended. And pretty well on some of you guys. Maybe you enjoy it. But that's the point. They introduce the stimuli into the games
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This is an interesting topic. I took an introduction to communications class in college and one of the topics the professor repeatedly drilled was the idea that on one hand, advertising is supposed to work, but violent content in media is meaningless. His intent was obvious, to point out that “they” can’t have it both ways, either it’s effective or it’s not.

At the same time, there has been violence in media for 100+ years, going back to the earliest slap stick comedy, if not before. Just as kids had guns at school, in their trucks, there were no school shootings. Something else is the driving factor. Some social, societal change nobody recognizes or wants to talk about. Possibly because there isn’t a clean, easy answer, but rather it’s a case of where society as a whole and the direction it has gone is at fault.
 
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