Bounty for All CFF Supporting Members

Cooper was a training genius...The El Prez tests....Hearing, Reaction, Movement, Presentation, Press, Reloading, Reacquisition, ALL in one quick Test....it told him how the people he was training [with 6 shot revolvers] had evolved in a week. It still holds up today going on a half century....it only works when it is done with correct distances are used...that is exactly why anybody today that can do one in Under 12 seconds is considered a good man to have around....I still wanna see one under 6....done The Right way...come and get your money!
 
I can do it in 4, 5 sec.... OK, I cannot even type this with a straight face.

Even when I had to do it in the military, I sucked. I was told this is the handgunner's version of landing on an aircraft carrier: you have to assimilate multiple inputs and functions at the same time.
 
fieldgrade said:
I might run out to the range and run that drill this week.

No way I’m posting my time here though
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Don’t be a Candy ass if Jr Green can do it in 6 surely you can do it in a non laughable manner lol

I will post my time 23 seconds 🤣🤣 the stress of the clock had me all frustrated
 
BigWaylon said:
So the two differences I noticed compared to Billy’s rules…
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BigWaylon said:
Billy’s way
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Big there is no Ken's way or My way...there's only ONE way..the Original Way....Jeff Cooper's way.

The This Way and the That ways..of which Ken speaks about...are what got us to the debate about 4 second El Prez.

The is No Such Thing as a 4 second El Prez....or5...or 6. Watch Hackathorn and Vickers do it again...now think...4 seconds???
 
All I’m lacking is an understanding of what size circle needs to be at the center of the target. Everything I look at posted here looks different.

Heck, I’m happy when I can beat Vicker’s “The Test”.
Ten rounds, ten seconds, no reloads, not transitions.
 
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fieldgrade said:
All I’m lacking is an understanding of what size circle needs to be at the center of the target. Everything I look at posted here looks different.

Heck, I’m happy when I can beat Vicker’s “The Test”.
Ten rounds, ten seconds, no reloads, not transitions.
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The original Gunsite targets have an 8 inch A. I have some here.
 
Scsmith42 said:
Well, I'd expect that the blood oath would work both ways....
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Catfish said:
Here's KH doing the drill:
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There is a video that comes of After this on with a John fella shooting a EP in the 4-5 second times. Take time to watch it...THIS is how the Myth of a 4 second EP came from....can't tell how far away they are BUT the targets are No More than a 1 yard apart....when a test gets Bastardized to this point only for the sake of being able to say you did Something Quickly, it becomes a Useless exercise. Check it out. Be sure to check out the guns and gear and lack of concealment. Helllll, Ima bet some of you serious shooters could cut the distance in Half, put the targets Even Closer together [after all what difference does it make?] could do Way better than a 12???




But.................................................................................................................................................................it ain't an El Prez.
 
NKD said:
Some good tips from Tomasie

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WOW!!!! Another NOT EP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good shooting....just NOT an EP!
No concealment
Wrong distance
No slide lock reload
Wrong distance between targets
Hits All Over the Target....at LEAST 6 seconds in penalties for bad hits.
 
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Those circles in Ken’s targets are a good deal larger than 8”, as well as Tomasie’s steel targets.
 
An all-A, 6-sec (10.00 hit factor) El Prez in USPSA (A zones only ~5ft apart, but only 6" wide) is a low GM score in Production and Carry Optics. With the wider transitions, and wider 8" center circles, I don't see the "bounty" being impossible for a regionally-competitive, consistent GM shooter. A 1.3 draw to first shot, .22 splits, .35 transitions, and a 1.7 reload gets in with quarter-second to spare.

I'm pretty sure that's... zero people on the forum, but there are certainly a few dudes at the local USPSA matches that could hit those times and get full points more often than not.
 
JRV said:
I'm pretty sure that's... zero people on the forum, but there are certainly a few dudes at the local USPSA matches that could hit those times and get full points more often than not.
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Better local shooters here than you imagine.
 
JRV said:
El Prez in USPSA (A zones only ~5ft apart, but only 6" wide)
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Not an EP...Maybe in USPSA....This is what gets the myths going. The edges of the targets are 9 feet apart this puts the As 10 feet apart.

No carry optics...they didn't exist then...from Concealment....all these things make a difference...When you change the original rules, it's no longer an EP. Also, even Hackathorn says there are 100s of versions....they don't Count...
 
fieldgrade said:
Better local shooters here than you imagine.
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I've shot plenty of USPSA around the triad and triangle. There's definitely a few GMs in the state that could run a true El Prez in 6 flat nine times out of ten with a Production, Limited, or Single Stack gun. Open front concealment or AIWB? Not an impediment.

It's not a lot of guys, though. Open that time up to 7 seconds and that pool of guys gets a lot larger.

I don't think they're reading CFF right now. Those dudes are probably off dry-firing.
 
JRV said:
I don't think they're reading CFF right now. Those dudes are probably off dry-firing.
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There’s two USPSA Grandmasters in our backyard I get to shoot with occasionally who slum it and shoot IDPA with us frequently one county over. I guess they like our match.

And there’s a few SO’s at that match that don’t even shoot sanctioned matches, but shoot nearly as well as those GMs do. Maybe being in proximity to Bragg we are privileged to have these good shooters.

Just didn’t want to sell them short.
 
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fieldgrade said:
There’s two USPSA Grandmasters in our backyard I get to shoot with occasionally who slum it and shoot IDPA with us frequently one county over. I guess they like our match.

And there’s a few SO’s at that match that don’t even shoot sanctioned matches, but shoot nearly as well as those GMs do. Maybe being in proximity to Bragg we are privileged to have these good shooters.

Just didn’t want to sell them short.
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Oh, definitely. NC is up there with Ohio and Arizona for shooting talent. Jon Shue, Todd Jarrett, Ben Berry... some great guys show up to club matches.
 
JRV said:
Ben Berry
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I beat Ben Berry in 1 stage at a Wake match about 4 years ago. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I'm a USPSA "B" production shooter, and went to one of TIlley's pre-real match matches. Came in 24th out of 25, and only because one guy had equipment problems and dropped out. There are a lot of good shooters around here.

I know my turn and draw time, my average split and transition times and reloads.... I'm not getting that $100.
 
Note the target sequencing is different from the often mandated 1,1,2,1,1
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
WOW!!!! Another NOT EP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good shooting....just NOT an EP!
No concealment
Wrong distance
No slide lock reload
Wrong distance between targets
Hits All Over the Target....at LEAST 6 seconds in penalties for bad hits.
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That's Travis Tomasie. He can do it any way you want him to do it, being one of the best shooters in the world, and having proved it many times.
 
JRV said:
An all-A, 6-sec (10.00 hit factor) El Prez in USPSA (A zones only ~5ft apart, but only 6" wide) is a low GM score in Production and Carry Optics. With the wider transitions, and wider 8" center circles, I don't see the "bounty" being impossible for a regionally-competitive, consistent GM shooter. A 1.3 draw to first shot, .22 splits, .35 transitions, and a 1.7 reload gets in with quarter-second to spare.

I'm pretty sure that's... zero people on the forum, but there are certainly a few dudes at the local USPSA matches that could hit those times and get full points more often than not.
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There are many M and GM on this forum.
 
NKD said:
That's Travis Tomasie. He can do it any way you want him to do it, being one of the best shooters in the world, and having proved it many times.
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He is GOOD x 1,000.....But those targets are ridiculous..spacing awful....There is Nothing but the number of shots fired that has Anything to do with the El Prez. There are litterally 1,000s of folks that can shoot Way better than Anybody I even know...let alone all of us that shoot here. In this case it is Not just a simple case of semantics...what this man does Is Not An El Prez...I can't imagine that he would ever present or introduce it as such...Surely he Must know better...what are folk's motives for saying something is one thing and it not having Any relevance to the conversation at hand????

If every man, woman and "other" shooters on CFF decided amongst our selves that a dog's tail was a leg...how many legs would a dog have???? See what I'm gettin' at???
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
He is GOOD x 1,000.....But those targets are ridiculous..spacing awful....There is Nothing but the number of shots fired that has Anything to do with the El Prez. There are litterally 1,000s of folks that can shoot Way better than Anybody I even know...let alone all of us that shoot here. In this case it is Not just a simple case of semantics...what this man does Is Not An El Prez...I can't imagine that he would ever present or introduce it as such...Surely he Must know better...what are folk's motives for saying something is one thing and it not having Any relevance to the conversation at hand????

If every man, woman and "other" shooters on CFF decided amongst our selves that a dog's tail was a leg...how many legs would a dog have???? See what I'm gettin' at???
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He is simply giving tips on how to shoot a particular drill. The size and spacing of targets in that drill are actually the completely irrelevant part.
 
NKD said:
He is simply giving tips on how to shoot a particular drill. The size and spacing of targets in that drill are actually the completely irrelevant part.
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Soooooooooooooo..........................................5 legs???
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
It's simply a test for the end of a week's training...a test that has been Bastardized so people can shoot faster times. Let's just try it like it was designed and see what we can do...
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Imagine something so simple that can be so complicated so folks can quote a faster time than the Originators posted....🤦‍♀️🙋‍♀️
 
If you change the test to meet the standard, the standard no longer exists, because the test has changed.

A cornerback is shooting for 4.3 in the 40 and the best time he turns is 4.6. Then, he runs 35 in 4.3, jumps up and down and proclaims, “See…I hit 4.3!!” Well, yeah you did…in 35 yards, but not 40.

Is that 4.3 seconds fast/respectable for 35 yards? Damn right it is…a little over 16.5 mph. But…

It ain’t a 4.3/40 (19mph).
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
Soooooooooooooo..........................................5 legs???
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Nope. Dogs have four legs generally. But I have seen many with three.

I simply saw that their were several members interested in trying this interesting drill. I thought it would be helpful to post something that may help in working on it. The layout was already covered by you thoroughly, however you gave no opinion on how to shoot it, or any techniques that may be involved (at least that I saw).

I then picked a guy who is a top professional who is indisputably worth listening to when it comes to these things. I mean, it is Travis Tomasie, nobody is going to crap on this guy, right?!!?

Wrong, Lol.
 
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At the 2002 Nationals (IDPA), Yost shot the drill clean at 8.53 and Leatham did it in 8.81…smoking.

IIRC, there were a little over 300 shooters in the competition and only 12 or so shot the drill sub 10.

I don’t like to use the words “impossible” or “never”, but 3 targets, 3m apart, at 10m with an open-sighted pistol and three 8” circles with 4 holes each in 6.0 flat?

I’m an optimistic guy, but that ain’t happening…well, maybe if you conjure up McGivern’s ghost and have him put on a shootin’ demonstration, it might.
 
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I don’t think anyone in this thread is shi**ing on any of the shooters mentioned. They are all very talented…a talent that has been developed and refined by years of pratice and dedication…and that’s great.

Personally, I think Jerry Miculek is one of the best shooters walking the earth. Do I think he broke Ed McGivern’s speed record?

Nope, because he was not shooting a factory stock wheelgun, identical to McGivern’s, whose ONLY modification was to the front sight blade.
 
Dale Gribble said:
At the 2002 Nationals (IDPA),
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Look. You can’t be talking about IDPA out in the open like this. The USPA guys will start ragging us about vests, then we get triggered, and start posting memes. Then the arguments start. Next thing you know people are posting mean things in the cute pets thread, and BAM, people get banned, or put in time out.
The humanity.
 
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